ppl training on tailwheel

If you use the traditional explanation that torque is synonomous with twist, that would appear to be correct.

jstro said:
Well, I suppose the spiraling slipstream is still torque, but it's just torque about the yaw axis :)
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jstro said:
Well, I suppose the spiraling slipstream is still torque, but it's just torque about the yaw axis :)
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Saying slipstream is torque because it causes yaw is like saying P-factor or gyroscopics is also torque. They're all forces that produce yaw. If you look at the definition of torque, it's understandable that "torque" could by synonymous with any turning tendency. But if we're going to the effort of explaining (4) different turning forces, propellor "torque" should have only one meaning - which is the Newtonian "equal and opposite reaction" about the longitudinal axis of the airplane...i.e. - causing more force applied to the left tire. Semantics, all this might be.
 
RoscoeT said:
Saying slipstream is torque because it causes yaw is like saying P-factor or gyroscopics is also torque. They're all forces that produce yaw. If you look at the definition of torque, it's understandable that "torque" could by synonymous with any turning tendency. But if we're going to the effort of explaining (4) different turning forces, propellor "torque" should have only one meaning - which is the Newtonian "equal and opposite reaction" about the longitudinal axis of the airplane...i.e. - causing more force applied to the left tire. Semantics, all this might be.
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In deeedie deedie do.

If it causes a moment around an axis - it is a torque. But not necessarily the torque caused by the engine.

Kinda like aerodynamic stall vs. engine stall. Eh?
 
You guys can talk all of this stuff all day long. When it comes down to it I have never thought " Oh it's turning left when I raise the tail. Is that torque, p-factor or spiral efect that is doing this?" I just do what needs to be done to get the airplane going the way I want it to. Learning to fly a tailwheel is all about feel and there is no book that is going to teach that. Don
 
Fearless Tower said:
So...if spiralling slipstream is such a potent force.....why does a V-tail Bo need so much right rudder?
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Because the Bonanza's ruddervators still have, between them, the function of a vertical fin. The slipstream will strike the left of the left surface and lift it toward the right, and the right surface gets pushed down and to the right. The net result is tail right/nose left.

Dan
 
yakdriver said:
You guys can talk all of this stuff all day long. When it comes down to it I have never thought " Oh it's turning left when I raise the tail. Is that torque, p-factor or spiral efect that is doing this?" I just do what needs to be done to get the airplane going the way I want it to. Learning to fly a tailwheel is all about feel and there is no book that is going to teach that. Don
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Yep, when it comes to ACTUALLY flying, simply knowing that the nose goes left when the tail comes up is all you have to know. Once you engrain the right rudder into your habits, maybe that doesn't even come into play until you have to answer these questions during the oral test.
 
The tailwheel speaker said it takes a lot more focus to fly a tailwheel, especially on the ground, and this increased focus will help me in all of my future flying. I can't wait for my first tailwheel lesson this weekend.

Kimberly
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
The tailwheel speaker said it takes a lot more focus to fly a tailwheel, especially on the ground, and this increased focus will help me in all of my future flying. I can't wait for my first tailwheel lesson this weekend.

Kimberly
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There is nothing on the panel that can help you avoid the runway lights. Don't look at it until you are off the ground.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
There is nothing on the panel that can help you avoid the runway lights. Don't look at it until you are off the ground.
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True, but even in a TW, your initial takeoff roll should still include a basic panel scan to confirm things like airspeed alive/Oil Pressure/RPM are good....
 
Fearless Tower said:
True, but even in a TW, your initial takeoff roll should still include a basic panel scan to confirm things like airspeed alive/Oil Pressure/RPM are good....
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Hunh?


Maybe in a heavier, more complex, and stable TW, but in a simple TW there's nothing on the panel I can't tell by looking and listening.

The RPM gauge in the Chief is huge -- I sometimes snatch a momentary peripheral glance. Airspeed? Only if I'm testing a theory or some such. Oil pressure? I confirmed that while applying full throttle with brakes on before release.

On very narrow, small runways it's all look, listen, feel, and smell.
 
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dmccormack said:
Hunh?


Maybe in a heavier, more complex, and stable TW, but in a simple TW there's nothing on the panel I can't tell by looking and listening.

The RPM gauge in the Chief is huge -- I sometimes snatch a momentary peripheral glance. Airspeed? Only if I'm testing a theory or some such. Oil pressure? I confirmed that while applying full throttle with brakes on before release.

On very narrow, small runways it's all look, listen, feel, and smell.
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You can tell your oil pressure is by sound?

Here is some food for thought -
My airplane (before I bought it) experienced an oil pressure failure at the beginning of the takeoff roll a few years ago. O/P was good at the startup and runup....when the pilot started his takeoff roll, he glanced down at the gauge and noticed it was at zero - aborted the takeoff and shut down - fortunately no damage to the engine, but I'm sure glad he did a quick glance at the gauge. Important thing is that it failed between the runup and taking the runway.

Even in light tailwheels I do a quick glance at the beginning....usually in the first 50 feet of the roll/well before the tail is ready to fly.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You can tell your oil pressure is by sound?

Here is some food for thought -
My airplane (before I bought it) experienced an oil pressure failure at the beginning of the takeoff roll a few years ago. O/P was good at the startup and runup....when the pilot started his takeoff roll, he glanced down at the gauge and noticed it was at zero - aborted the takeoff and shut down - fortunately no damage to the engine, but I'm sure glad he did a quick glance at the gauge. Important thing is that it failed between the runup and taking the runway.

Even in light tailwheels I do a quick glance at the beginning....usually in the first 50 feet of the roll/well before the tail is ready to fly.
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Now that my feet are getting up to speed, I can do the same. But when I got back in after being off for years - no way Jose...

The chances of taking out a runway light because you are distracted are much higher than the chances of the engine going south in the 15 seconds since you last looked - particularly when you are new to tailwheels.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You can tell your oil pressure is by sound?

Here is some food for thought -
My airplane (before I bought it) experienced an oil pressure failure at the beginning of the takeoff roll a few years ago. O/P was good at the startup and runup....when the pilot started his takeoff roll, he glanced down at the gauge and noticed it was at zero - aborted the takeoff and shut down - fortunately no damage to the engine, but I'm sure glad he did a quick glance at the gauge. Important thing is that it failed between the runup and taking the runway.

Even in light tailwheels I do a quick glance at the beginning....usually in the first 50 feet of the roll/well before the tail is ready to fly.
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Risk/Reward.

On a narrow, small runway, the greater risk is running off the edge. Such as Maley Field (6WO):

- 15 FT DROP-OFF 45 FT FM CNTRLN FULL LENGTH BOTH SIDES RY. - APPROACH RWY 23 FROM NW; DEPART RWY 05 TO NW DUE TO RIDGE NE OF ARPT. - RY 23 15 FT DROP-OFF 10 FT FM THLD 0B. - RY 05 20 FT DROP-OFF 15 FT FM THLD 0B. - RY 05/23 +20 FT POLE MIDDLE OF RY 75 FT L&R OF CNTRLN. - 400 FT RIDGE/TREES 1100 FT FM THLD RY 23 0B. - HIGH TERRAIN ALL QUADRANTS.
(By the way, 45 feet wide is really stretching the tape measure)

Is it worth a glance at the gauges?

On a bigger, wider runway, there's time to look at gauges, the tires, the sky, the other airplanes, the fuel bobber -- with little risk of going off the edge.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
The chances of taking out a runway light because you are distracted are much higher than the chances of the engine going south in the 15 seconds since you last looked - particularly when you are new to tailwheels.
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Yep, and when your T/O roll lasts about 4 seconds and you're on a 35 ft. wide runway, I'm gonna wait. :)
 
yakdriver said:
You guys can talk all of this stuff all day long. When it comes down to it I have never thought " Oh it's turning left when I raise the tail. Is that torque, p-factor or spiral efect that is doing this?" I just do what needs to be done to get the airplane going the way I want it to. Learning to fly a tailwheel is all about feel and there is no book that is going to teach that. Don
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Technically, it's gyroscopic precession from the prop disk...90 degrees ahead of and opposite to the rotation - same issue that can cause a flat spin. A good reason to raise the tail s l o w. I agree, though, you do what you have to to keep it straight.
 
j1b3h0 said:
Technically, it's gyroscopic precession from the prop disk...90 degrees ahead of and opposite to the rotation - same issue that can cause a flat spin. A good reason to raise the tail s l o w. I agree, though, you do what you have to to keep it straight.
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I think slipstream is a more significant force in most planes than gyroscopics. Most folks don't raise the tail fast enough for it to be the predominant force. Depends on the airplane and prop mass vs. aircraft mass as well. If you have a wood or carbon prop, the effect is negligible, even though you will still need a good bit of right rudder if you raise the tail early - due mostly to slipstream and low airspeed. I think the right rudder needed while raising the tail has more to do with loss of tailwheel control than gyroscopics, even though gyro effects are at work - especially in a high-power-to-weight ratio airplane with a metal prop combined with raising the tail very quickly.
 
I don't care what airplane I'm flying I ALWAYS glance at the oil pressure, MP and RPM when I get to full throttle. It only takes a very quick glance otherwise my head is out of the cockpit until established on climb. Don
 
Always a good idea to make sure the engine(s) is producing takeoff power. I agree.
 
dmccormack said:
Hunh?


Maybe in a heavier, more complex, and stable TW, but in a simple TW there's nothing on the panel I can't tell by looking and listening.

The RPM gauge in the Chief is huge -- I sometimes snatch a momentary peripheral glance. Airspeed? Only if I'm testing a theory or some such. Oil pressure? I confirmed that while applying full throttle with brakes on before release.

On very narrow, small runways it's all look, listen, feel, and smell.
Click to expand...


I'm not a high time TW guy like Dan, but I'm a tailwheel guy. I agree that in my simple plane there's nothing the panel has for me until I'm a few feet off the runway. My visual FOCUS is down the runway. I've already done a runup and like Dan says I can tell if I am losing oil pressure or some such. The focus on keeping it straight, bringing up the tail and leaving the runway trump the panel for a few seconds.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
I'm not a high time TW guy like Dan, but I'm a tailwheel guy. I agree that in my simple plane there's nothing the panel has for me until I'm a few feet off the runway. My visual FOCUS is down the runway. I've already done a runup and like Dan says I can tell if I am losing oil pressure or some such. The focus on keeping it straight, bringing up the tail and leaving the runway trump the panel for a few seconds.

Doc
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I don't think most pilots really get how different these airplanes are.

I sure didn't until I bought one.

We don't "rotate," don't do Vx/Vy, don't do centerline, prefer turf to pavement, don't have to be anywhere by any time, and don't need mixture control since the altitudes we're flying have pretty much the same air density as the surface we took off from. We usually don't even need a radio.

The focus truly is outside, with senses picking up cues before most gauges will indicate.

When I lost power from a thrown plug I heard it and felt it, then looked at the RPM gauge to confirm while initiating a steep turn to the right and pushing forward on the yoke.

I understand the need to inculcate a checklist mentality into students, especially since modern airplanes are complex and will become more complex as systems replace skill.

But it wasn't always like that.
 
yakdriver said:
I don't care what airplane I'm flying I ALWAYS glance at the oil pressure, MP and RPM when I get to full throttle. It only takes a very quick glance otherwise my head is out of the cockpit until established on climb. Don
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I assume that you have your feet (and peripheral vision) in the game. Unlike the person that I directed the original comment towards who, as far as I know, has never even sat in a tailwheel airplane.

I'm amazed at how fast a first timer (even one with a PP ticket) can go off the edge...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I assume that you have your feet (and peripheral vision) in the game. Unlike the person that I directed the original comment towards who, as far as I know, has never even sat in a tailwheel airplane.

I'm amazed at how fast a first timer (even one with a PP ticket) can go off the edge...
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You assume correctly. I give check outs in the N3N in the avitar. Own a RV7 and Super Cub. Also do RV, Pitts transition training. Used to own a SNJ and fly it from the back seat. So yes I know all about feet and peripheral vision. Don
 
If flying a tail wheel consumes so much of your mental ability that you cannot glance at an engine gauge without fear of running off the runway you probably need more practice. It's not *THAT* hard folks. It's different. But don't let people fool you.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Now that my feet are getting up to speed, I can do the same. But when I got back in after being off for years - no way Jose...

The chances of taking out a runway light because you are distracted are much higher than the chances of the engine going south in the 15 seconds since you last looked - particularly when you are new to tailwheels.
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yeh same here, when I was first learning the taildragger dance I wouldn't take my eyes off the runaway for any thing, now ,although I am noway an expert, I find I have a quick glance at the airspeed about when the AC wants to fly, confirms my feelings ,I guess,
As for the "torque" I don't over think it ,just do whats needed, I do anticipate a swing as the tail lifts, in a decathalon, but I'm hoping to get checked out in a Tigermoth soon so it's going to be opposite!
cheers Mat
 
metalman said:
As for the "torque" I don't over think it ,just do whats needed, I do anticipate a swing as the tail lifts, in a decathalon, but I'm hoping to get checked out in a Tigermoth soon so it's going to be opposite!
cheers Mat
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When I checked out in the Auster it was goofy for the first two or three takeoffs and then I forgot all about the opposite rudder. I suppose some people fly airplanes the way they operate other machinery: they don't really become part of the machine. They're mostly passengers that make control inputs. The rest of us let our brains figure it out and go on to enjoy the experience while the subconscious looks after stuff.

Dan
 
RoscoeT said:
I think slipstream is a more significant force in most planes than gyroscopics. Most folks don't raise the tail fast enough for it to be the predominant force. Depends on the airplane and prop mass vs. aircraft mass as well. If you have a wood or carbon prop, the effect is negligible, even though you will still need a good bit of right rudder if you raise the tail early - due mostly to slipstream and low airspeed. I think the right rudder needed while raising the tail has more to do with loss of tailwheel control than gyroscopics, even though gyro effects are at work - especially in a high-power-to-weight ratio airplane with a metal prop combined with raising the tail very quickly.
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The slipstream is a big factor when the propeller is large and slow, compared to smaller and faster. That large prop is also a bigger factor than the smaller when gyroscopic precession is examined. The nose might swing left when you raise the tail, but if you get the airplane level in the takeoff roll, the P-factor disappears because the propeller's rotational axis is now parallel to the line of travel.

When I was instructing in Champs and Citabrias, I minimized the pitch movement for the beginning student. I had him/her open the throttle, hold the nose straight, and as the speed increased the tail would want to come up (since the wing's lift is behind the main gear). I would have him arrest that once the tail was maybe three inches off the pavement and hold the nose right there, which happened to be really close to climb attitude. It took increasing back stick pressure to do that as the speed built, and the airplane flew off when it was ready. As speed increased further, the tail downforce increased and the student could slowly relax the back pressure. If the trim was set right, the airplane stabilized at the right climb speed with the stick neutral. This technique made it easy for the student to keep up with what was happening.

Dan
 
Little things that help the low time TG pilot.

bring the power in slowly, the "P" factor comes in slower and the rudder is added slower than if all the power is jabbed in at once. and she's going left really hard all at one time.

adjust the trim to 1.2 over stall after the turn to final, and adjust the power to set sink rate as required, and leave the trim alone for the next take off.

Have the power all the way off and your attitude set before you try to flare to land and roll out, because if you pull power on the ground, the aircraft will try to turn, and that's just more to cope with during the high speed portion of the roll out.
 
Tom-D said:
bring the power in slowly, the "P" factor comes in slower and the rudder is added slower than if all the power is jabbed in at once. and she's going left really hard all at one time.
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Along with the comment about bringing the power in slowly, raising the tail slowly helps too.
 
When properly trimmed, the tail should come up without any pilot input. When the tail is ready to fly, the wing is ready too.
Fearless Tower said:
Along with the comment about bringing the power in slowly, raising the tail slowly helps too.
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wabower said:
When properly trimmed, the tail should come up without any pilot input. When the tail is ready to fly, the wing is ready too.
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I've tried that 50 different ways and it never feels quite right. It will lift off at very slow speed (in the 30s). But for some reason zipping along on two wheels seems "better."

I'm sure it's just habit. When I get it back east I will experiment again.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The tail will fly at a lower speed than the wing.
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I always hoped it would when taking off in a 10,000lb twin Beech, in fact if it didn't come up by 60 mph it was reason to reject the takeoff - meant the CG was so far aft you might crash if you continue. That's the last airplane I worked that made me a little nervous for takeoff and landing. Flew like a dream in flight, but close to the runway, I was always on the edge of my chair. Some airplanes deserve RESPECT. Twin Beech is one.
 
wabower said:
When properly trimmed, the tail should come up without any pilot input. When the tail is ready to fly, the wing is ready too.
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The Citabria's tail will rise long before the wing will generate enough lift to pick up the airplane. The tail rises because the wing's center of lift is well behind the mains and it actually takes considerable up-elevator to keep the tail from coming up too far before liftoff.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
The Citabria's tail will rise long before the wing will generate enough lift to pick up the airplane. The tail rises because the wing's center of lift is well behind the mains and it actually takes considerable up-elevator to keep the tail from coming up too far before liftoff.

Dan
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As the tail rises the angle of attack of the wing will go down, and cause the wing to fly later than the tail.

So, leaving the aircraft trimmed at a known airspeed of 1.2 over stall will cause the aircraft to fly away at 1.2 over stall, with the tail low.
 
During takeoff I like to be able to see out the front of the windshield. As a result, the tail will always be high enough to accomodate that desire, and as quickly as I can get it there without undue gyrations.

Tom-D said:
As the tail rises the angle of attack of the wing will go down, and cause the wing to fly later than the tail.

So, leaving the aircraft trimmed at a known airspeed of 1.2 over stall will cause the aircraft to fly away at 1.2 over stall, with the tail low.
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wabower said:
During takeoff I like to be able to see out the front of the windshield. As a result, the tail will always be high enough to accomodate that desire, and as quickly as I can get it there without undue gyrations.
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With the 170 that's a non issue, and with the F-24 no matter how high you get it, you still can't see any thing. so I just let them fly off.
 
That's one reason I considered a 170. Haven't ever flown at 24, don't know if my wide load would fit.

Tom-D said:
With the 170 that's a non issue, and with the F-24 no matter how high you get it, you still can't see any thing. so I just let them fly off.
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