ppl training on tailwheel

[scarybus320]

6 hours in the pattern in a tailwheel airplane just isn't enough in most cases for an initial student. I would guess it will take you another 6 (9 might be more likely) at least before you are getting close to solo.

A couple things you can try to see if they work for you. One, try dancing or marching on the pedals, just slight little back and forth movements, Say to your self "left, right, left, right, left, right" as you are taking off and touching down. When you do this you will probably find that you tend to make small corrections on each cycle of the pedals. The nose of the airplane should barely move when you doing this, only just enough to detect it unless you want it to move. You can make it turn by just stopping for just a moment "left, right, pause, left..." These small movements will help you determine how much you need to be pushing on the rudder, as the airplane slows down you may need larger inputs but if you keep the nose just barely moving back and forth you will subconciously make the adjusments you need.

2nd put your toes down low on the pedal so you can't push on the brakes and lift you heels up off the floor, this will promote you keeping the pedals moving.

Watch the rudder on a few tailwheel pilots landing, Most you will see the rudder flipping back and forth, but some won't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHOvWqJ218c
This was the 1st youtube video I found in a search for "tailwheel landing" a bit hard to see but watch the rudder carefully during the touchdown and rollout.



Hope this helps, probably should discuss it with you instructor before trying it.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

I just realize that when I had 10 hours my instructor told me to go get a medical and get ready for solo, I was like... no way, after 10 hours, which is right now, I need a lot more landings before I feel comfortable to go on solo.

I been trying to mirror my instructor's move, in fact he was dancing on the rudder with very small and fast movements.
I never ask him this about jab on the rudder and square it off, jab it and square off is like dancing on rudders.
Sometimes after touch down the tail wheel got shimmy, I wonder is that from the rudder movement during tail wheel touch down or I landed too hard.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I just realize that when I had 10 hours my instructor told me to go get a medical and get ready for solo, I was like... no way, after 10 hours, which is right now, I need a lot more landings before I feel comfortable to go on solo.

I been trying to mirror my instructor's move, in fact he was dancing on the rudder with very small and fast movements.
I never ask him this about jab on the rudder and square it off, jab it and square off is like dancing on rudders.
Sometimes after touch down the tail wheel got shimmy, I wonder is that from the rudder movement during tail wheel touch down or I landed too hard.

I think that most people think that they aren't ready to solo when the instructor says they are. The only ones who DON'T feel that way are probably the ones who think that they ARE ready to solo when their instructor says they're not.

 

[jesse]

I'll you the same as everyone, and this is what I do when I have to check myself out in a single seat plane (most all which have been tailwheel). The key is Taxi practice. Taxi around for a while and get comfortable with it. Go somewhere with a big runway and do some high speed taxi runs, weave back and forth, pick up one wheel, set it down, pick up the other, just do this for a solid hour and get comfortable with the high speed ground handling and all the effects you get from it. Then you have the base of experience require to complete the transition required from flying to the ground.

Flying is a "Building Block" experience, but many instructors forget to build that bock of high speed ground handling and leave it to develop during landing practice 2 seconds at a time. This wastes thousands of dollars of student money and causes much unhappiness and frustration among students. It takes about an hour's worth of experience to burn those sight pictures and control fell muscle memories into your mind. Don't be scared and lazy. Get to it and practice and get it done and out of the way and move the f- on. Don't let incompetent or lazy instructors fleece you, and don't be incompetent or lazy yourself. Work hard, I feel you already are, so keep at it. Tell your instructor that this is what you want to do. Do not ask.

It might be easy for you to handle the airplane like that to learn it's quirks but it is not easy for all people. The margin for error in a lot of those methods you described above is very thin. An early primary student makes a lot of errors. If you have to come on the controls every second to save their ass they're not going to have any confidence. A student without confidence learns at a terrifyingly slow rate.

You really think you can teach someone how to race up and down the runway in a tailwheel airplane that is a poor tailwheel pilot and expect them to be able to zig zag back and forth and pick up wheels and wheelie down the runway? Good luck.

 

[Tom-D]

Tom,

Where is the one where she starts to ground loop and you recover?

I replaced it with cleaning the seat video..

here ya go..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnXfPy0L_lU

 

[RyanShort1]

It might be easy for you to handle the airplane like that to learn it's quirks but it is not easy for all people. The margin for error in a lot of those methods you described above is very thin. An early primary student makes a lot of errors. If you have to come on the controls every second to save their ass they're not going to have any confidence. A student without confidence learns at a terrifyingly slow rate.

You really think you can teach someone how to race up and down the runway in a tailwheel airplane that is a poor tailwheel pilot and expect them to be able to zig zag back and forth and pick up wheels and wheelie down the runway? Good luck.

The Compleat Taildragger Pilot specifically agrees with Jesse - see page 184-186 - with some pretty strong language on the subject. The word there is that high speed taxis are likely ten times more dangerous for inexperienced pilots. From my experience to this point with tailwheel dual, I agree with Plourde.

Ryan

 

[j1b3h0]

You chose the right airplane to learn to fly. I've spent over 1000 hrs teaching people how to fly tail wheel airplanes - mostly in Citabrias and Decathlons. The problems I've seen have mostly to do with getting so little practice of the really critical things: You go all the way around the pattern and only get what, a few seconds on the runway? I have my students land on a nice long runway, then, I put the tail wheel in the air with enough throttle to go about 45-50 mph, then I really put them to work - "put your left main tire on the centerline. Now put your right tire, etc." I take the airplane and swerve over to the very side of the runway and give it back to my student -"put it back on the centerline". Sometimes I'll takeoff and fly over the runway lights at about 5 ft in the air "when you have the controls, "fly back over the centerline and land". We try to use the full lenght of a long runway, so each time around the pattern my student gets a mile or more of practice doing what makes a taildragger tricky. When you really gain control, you'll be able to wheel land on one tire and while still one one wheel, zigzag between the runway stripes.
Crosswinds, (after you have the basics) are a matter of learning how to keep the airplane pointed in the right direction - and arrest any drift - an unatural act until you practice it. The good news is that the airplane will teach you even if the instructor doesn't. Keep plugging away, sounds like you're close.

 

[Tom-D]

The Compleat Taildragger Pilot specifically agrees with Jesse - see page 184-186 - with some pretty strong language on the subject. The word there is that high speed taxis are likely ten times more dangerous for inexperienced pilots. From my experience to this point with tailwheel dual, I agree with Plourde.

Ryan

WHY ?? because you are all set up for the tail up rudder input. and pull the power and she goes right really hard and then you over correct and turn it into a high speed weed wacker.

Pilot induced osolation on the horizontal plane..

 

[Tom-D]

You chose the right airplane to learn to fly. I've spent over 1000 hrs teaching people how to fly tail wheel airplanes - mostly in Citabrias and Decathlons. The problems I've seen have mostly to do with getting so little practice of the really critical things: You go all the way around the pattern and only get what, a few seconds on the runway? I have my students land on a nice long runway, then, I put the tail wheel in the air with enough throttle to go about 45-50 mph, then I really put them to work - "put your left main tire on the centerline. Now put your right tire, etc." I take the airplane and swerve over to the very side of the runway and give it back to my student -"put it back on the centerline". Sometimes I'll takeoff and fly over the runway lights at about 5 ft in the air "when you have the controls, "fly back over the centerline and land". We try to use the full lenght of a long runway, so each time around the pattern my student gets a mile or more of practice doing what makes a taildragger tricky. When you really gain control, you'll be able to wheel land on one tire and while still one one wheel, zigzag between the runway stripes.
Crosswinds, (after you have the basics) are a matter of learning how to keep the airplane pointed in the right direction - and arrest any drift - an unatural act until you practice it. The good news is that the airplane will teach you even if the instructor doesn't. Keep plugging away, sounds like you're close.

How much resent time do you have in conventional gear aircraft that weigh over 3000 pounds gross?

 

[j1b3h0]

The Compleat Taildragger Pilot specifically agrees with Jesse - see page 184-186 - with some pretty strong language on the subject. The word there is that high speed taxis are likely ten times more dangerous for inexperienced pilots. From my experience to this point with tailwheel dual, I agree with Plourde.

Ryan

With all due respect, I disagree with Plourde. Many of my students were 'checked out' by other instructors, and then had a real scare when flying solo. When I get through with a tailwheel student they have confidence. I will agree that there are some airplanes not well suited to this kind of mission - I wouldn't encourage it in a twin Beech, for example, but most of the 2 seat tailwheel trainers, Champs, T-crafts, Luscombes, Cubs, etc, are no problem - with the right instructor. If the (tailwheel) instructor's tailwheel endorsement ink is still wet, well he or she shouldn't be instructing in a taildragger just yet. I've been doing it off and on for over 30 years - haven't lost one yet.

 

[j1b3h0]

How much resent time do you have in conventional gear aircraft that weigh over 3000 pounds gross?

Used to fly mail in Beech 18s, flown Beavers a bit (100 hrs or so) and most recently, a Stearman. Why do you ask?

 

[Henning]

That is a great point that alot of instructors seem to gloss over. I was fortunate in that my first tailwheel instructor emphasized the high speed ground handling early - after getting you comfortable with basic taxiing, it was on to high speed taxis on the runway - getting it up on the mains and controlling it, then easing the power off and bringing the tail back to earth. Had to master that before we actually went flying.

The thing that causes the greatest problem learning to land is that until you have the experience, you don't have a "sight picture" to aim for. That takes about an hours worth to really become entrenched in the mind because of all the subtle cues that take time to notice. Most instructors let the student learn this on landing at a time when they are so nervous about the landing, they aren't paying attention to the view, and as soon as they are on the ground they are busy reconfiguring and getting ready to do the second half of the touch and go. This is a wholly inefficient method to go about it. With an hour of high speed taxi and playing around on the runway tipping a wing up and down having fun with the student will develop that "Aim Sight" the need on contact.

The real problem is most instructors are afraid to do this because they never developed the required skills themselves, so what we have is a cycle that's been repeating itself for several decades of creating subpar capability pilots.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The real problem is most instructors are afraid to do this because they never developed the required skills themselves, so what we have is a cycle that's been repeating itself for several decades of creating subpar capability pilots.

I think you just nailed it right there Henning. My initial TW instructor was a dang good pilot (he was in his early 20's at the time, but at that point he must have already had at least 500 hrs PIC in his dad's SNJ). The thing about him was he was comfortable enough to let me swerve right and left all down the runway at New Bedford but always ready to take over if needed.

I used to think it was strange flying with him, but I started to understand what he was doing....he would have his hands and feet at the ready moving them as if he was actually flying the plane but just a few inches away from the actual controls.

Some people might disagree with this, but what the high speed taxiing did for me was, first, it humbled me and woke me the hell up fast - the first time on two up on two wheels, I kept wishing he would take the controls from me.....but he didn't and then I started to get the hang of it rather quickly.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I replaced it with cleaning the seat video..

here ya go..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnXfPy0L_lU

Thanks Tom...IMHO, that is actually a great video on how to stop a groundloop before it destroys the plane.

 

[Henning]

It might be easy for you to handle the airplane like that to learn it's quirks but it is not easy for all people. The margin for error in a lot of those methods you described above is very thin. An early primary student makes a lot of errors. If you have to come on the controls every second to save their ass they're not going to have any confidence. A student without confidence learns at a terrifyingly slow rate.

You really think you can teach someone how to race up and down the runway in a tailwheel airplane that is a poor tailwheel pilot and expect them to be able to zig zag back and forth and pick up wheels and wheelie down the runway? Good luck.

This is why instructors are usually MASTERS in their field, not second tier students. This is the whole problem, the instructors are of insufficient quality to be properly effective so the student has to pay for the instructors inability to handle an aircraft, both in cash and quality for what he was not instructed to be capable of.

It's the CFI's who have failed the industry and produced the pilots we get in the front of airliners from Colgan to Air France. We have a full generation of just marginally competent pilots now and a whole bunch of them are completely incompetent in an emergency.

 

[Henning]

I think you just nailed it right there Henning. My initial TW instructor was a dang good pilot (he was in his early 20's at the time, but at that point he must have already had at least 500 hrs PIC in his dad's SNJ). The thing about him was he was comfortable enough to let me swerve right and left all down the runway at New Bedford but always ready to take over if needed.

I used to think it was strange flying with him, but I started to understand what he was doing....he would have his hands and feet at the ready moving them as if he was actually flying the plane but just a few inches away from the actual controls.

Some people might disagree with this, but what the high speed taxiing did for me was, first, it humbled me and woke me the hell up fast - the first time on two up on two wheels, I kept wishing he would take the controls from me.....but he didn't and then I started to get the hang of it rather quickly.

Right, but without it it take hours and hours of T&Gs to achieve the same learning, and without that foundation of confidence, that also hinders the rest of the learning process because "that moment" of landing is always intruding on their thoughts.

 

[Henning]

The Compleat Taildragger Pilot specifically agrees with Jesse - see page 184-186 - with some pretty strong language on the subject. The word there is that high speed taxis are likely ten times more dangerous for inexperienced pilots. From my experience to this point with tailwheel dual, I agree with Plourde.

Ryan

They most certainly are, that's why they must be learned first because a landing is no more than a high speed taxi under decelleration. If you learn the high speed taxi, it takes all the buggery out of landing them.

Think "Best" rather than "Easiest". IME "Best Practice" produces the best result in the quickest time.

That's the problem with modern flight instruction. It's about "The easiest way to produce acceptable results" not "Best way to produce Best results".

 

[jesse]

This is why instructors are usually MASTERS in their field, not second tier students. This is the whole problem, the instructors are of insufficient quality to be properly effective so the student has to pay for the instructors inability to handle an aircraft, both in cash and quality for what he was not instructed to be capable of.

It's the CFI's who have failed the industry and produced the pilots we get in the front of airliners from Colgan to Air France. We have a full generation of just marginally competent pilots now and a whole bunch of them are completely incompetent in an emergency.

Ok, Henning.

It's not that I cannot save a student's mistake. I have no concern about that. I do have a concern about setting the student up in a situation where I will have to save their ass over and over because it destroys their confidence. That's not how people learn best. It's much better to teach them in a manner where you gradually increase their skill and as a result they maintain their confidence. I'm not saying that we should train sub-standard pilots. I'm saying that you can't expect a student to be riding wheelies down the runway in a tailwheel before they've ever even flown the thing in the sky.

Do the accident statistics support any of your statements? Pilots have been crashing for a very long time.

Of course you've done a lot of flight instruction - so you know more then I do.

It's way easier to ***** about instructors and CLAIM they should do things differently. Of course if you've never done those things your statements aren't worth much.

 

[Henning]

Ok, Henning.

It's not that I cannot save a student's mistake. I have no concern about that. I do have a concern about setting the student up in a situation where I will have to save their ass over and over because it destroys their confidence.

Do the accident statistics support any of your statements? Pilots have been crashing for a very long time.

Of course you've done a lot of flight instruction - so you know more then I do.

It's way easier to ***** about instructors and CLAIM they should do things differently. Of course if you've never done those things your statements aren't worth much.

You can be all the defensive you want including providing an offense. It doesn't change the truth, "Modern training is ineffective".

 

[jesse]

You can be all the defensive you want including providing an offense. It doesn't change the truth, "Modern training is ineffective".

You aren't providing any information to indicate that it is "ineffective" or that training used to be more effective. I've yet to see anything myself that has indicated safety is getting worse.

You're also stating with authority as to how something should done. But you haven't done any testing to see if that method would actually work effectively. What your describing could possibly be an effective way for an experienced pilot to explore an airplane (and even that is a reach) but it is NOT an effective way for a brand new student to learn. That is NOT the place to start with a new student pilot in a tailwheel airplane. They'd learn nothing, would be totally overwhelmed, and would lose all their confidence because you'd have to keep saving the airplane.

Those of us that have given instruction have a different opinion then you. RyanShort has done way more tailwheel instruction then I have and most defiantly more then you have since you're not a flight instructor at all. Of course it's easier for you to just say all instructors are doing it wrong and you could do it better. If you could. By all means, change the industry and do it.

Call me defensive if you want. I just prefer to base my statements and opinions on real experience and statistics. Sorry I called your bluff.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Ok, Henning.

It's not that I cannot save a student's mistake. I have no concern about that. I do have a concern about setting the student up in a situation where I will have to save their ass over and over because it destroys their confidence. That's not how people learn best. It's much better to teach them in a manner where you gradually increase their skill and as a result they maintain their confidence. I'm not saying that we should train sub-standard pilots. I'm saying that you can't expect a student to be riding wheelies down the runway in a tailwheel before they've ever even flown the thing in the sky.

Did you read my example Jesse....that CFI never had to save my ass. He was always ready in case he had to, but he made me fly the plane and I learned a heck of lot from it in a short amount of time and by having to do it myself, it built up my confidence.

Now, is that going to work with every single pilot? No, but it is a good start and gives the CFI a good idea of what the pilot is capable of and it can be tailored from there.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I am reminded of the old saw about a guy mud wrestling a pig. They both get muddy and the pig enjoys it. Or is it that the pig gets annoyed?

Either way is appropriate.

 

[jesse]

Did you read my example Jesse....that CFI never had to save my ass. He was always ready in case he had to, but he made me fly the plane and I learned a heck of lot from it in a short amount of time and by having to do it myself, it built up my confidence.

Now, is that going to work with every single pilot? No, but it is a good start and gives the CFI a good idea of what the pilot is capable of and it can be tailored from there.

I'm addressing the way Henning stated you should learn to fly a tailwheel airplane as an inexperienced student pilot:

I'll you the same as everyone, and this is what I do when I have to check myself out in a single seat plane (most all which have been tailwheel). The key is Taxi practice. Taxi around for a while and get comfortable with it. Go somewhere with a big runway and do some high speed taxi runs, weave back and forth, pick up one wheel, set it down, pick up the other, just do this for a solid hour and get comfortable with the high speed ground handling and all the effects you get from it. Then you have the base of experience require to complete the transition required from flying to the ground.

Flying is a "Building Block" experience, but many instructors forget to build that bock of high speed ground handling and leave it to develop during landing practice 2 seconds at a time. This wastes thousands of dollars of student money and causes much unhappiness and frustration among students. It takes about an hour's worth of experience to burn those sight pictures and control fell muscle memories into your mind. Don't be scared and lazy. Get to it and practice and get it done and out of the way and move the f- on. Don't let incompetent or lazy instructors fleece you, and don't be incompetent or lazy yourself. Work hard, I feel you already are, so keep at it. Tell your instructor that this is what you want to do. Do not ask.

His first paragraph is just ridiculous as an initial building block for a student pilot. It's WAY too much. They'd learn nothing and they wouldn't be able to do any of those tasks without an instructor on the controls the entire time. Could you do those things later? SURE -- but not before you learn to fly the thing in the air and learn to control it on the ground in a way you can handle which isn't wheeling back and forth and zig zagging all over.

 

[j1b3h0]

Jesse -

I encourage you to go practice high speed taxiing (35-50 mph) on your own or with another instructor. A Citabria is great for this because it has so much rudder authority. Cessna 195, not so much. Start on a big runway. Try it slower, with the tail wheel on the ground, then a little faster. Remember, adding power makes the airplane stable because of the spinning propeller and also gives lots of control authority with the wind over the tail feathers.

I agree, giving your student a task that does nothing but humiliates them is counterproductive. But these exercises are the best way I know to develop really good rudder pedal feet.

 

[jesse]

Jesse -

I encourage you to go practice high speed taxiing (35-50 mph) on your own or with another instructor. A Citabria is great for this because it has so much rudder authority. Cessna 195, not so much. Start on a big runway. Try it slower, with the tail wheel on the ground, then a little faster. Remember, adding power makes the airplane stable because of the spinning propeller and also gives lots of control authority with the wind over the tail feathers.

I agree, giving your student a task that does nothing but humiliates them is counterproductive. But these exercises are the best way I know to develop really good rudder pedal feet.

Oh. I've done just that. I also teach people to fly. I agree there is value in some of that. But it's not step one of tailwheel training.

What he suggested was doing that stuff BEFORE you even took the airplane into the air with the student. That's just silly talk. The fact that he'd suggest that while then saying how bad all the flight instructors in shows that he knows nothing about teaching the average student how to fly.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

If I can ever afford my first tailwheel lesson I'll let you know how much ground stuff we do. Perhaps I mis-understood him over the phone but I thought he talked about doing a lot of taxi-ing since in the air it will fly "similar" to my 152 so then I don't need as much in-air time as on-ground time. However, he did say in that one hour we would become airborne and do all of the / most of the PTS stuff.

 

[wabower]

Is that why doctors start with brain surgery and then work back to basic anatomy and physiology?

They most certainly are, that's why they must be learned first because a landing is no more than a high speed taxi under decelleration. If you learn the high speed taxi, it takes all the buggery out of landing them.

Think "Best" rather than "Easiest". IME "Best Practice" produces the best result in the quickest time.

That's the problem with modern flight instruction. It's about "The easiest way to produce acceptable results" not "Best way to produce Best results".

 

[wabower]

How much T/W instruction experience do you have?

Did you read my example Jesse....that CFI never had to save my ass. He was always ready in case he had to, but he made me fly the plane and I learned a heck of lot from it in a short amount of time and by having to do it myself, it built up my confidence.

Now, is that going to work with every single pilot? No, but it is a good start and gives the CFI a good idea of what the pilot is capable of and it can be tailored from there.

 

[wabower]

High-speed ground ops have a proven record relative to safety. It's not good. That's why the conditions for aborting takeoffs drop from an entire page of possible reasons to just three -- engine fire, failure or loss of diectional control--above ~80 knots on larger airplanes.

If a student friend told me his t/w instructor started with high- speed taxi stuff, I would forbid him/her from having any future contact with the moron. [/B]

They most certainly are, that's why a they must be learned first because a landing is no more than a high speed taxi under decelleration. If you learn the high speed taxi, it takes all the buggery out of landing them.

Think "Best" rather than "Easiest". IME "Best Practice" produces the best result in the quickest time.

That's the problem with modern flight instruction. It's about "The easiest way to produce acceptable results" not "Best way to produce Best results".

 

[Tom-D]

Used to fly mail in Beech 18s, flown Beavers a bit (100 hrs or so) and most recently, a Stearman. Why do you ask?

Because they are a different animal, load 5 barrels of fuel in the back of an otter 650 horse and see if it handles like a C-120

 

[Tom-D]

Remember any power change is a directional change, land with power, pull the throttle back, it will try to change direction.

That is the leading cause of ground loops.

get the power all the way off at the 180 and learn to land from there. adjust your pattern to fit the glide of the aircraft.

tail dragging ----- get good, stay good, or get dead.

 

[Henning]

You aren't providing any information to indicate that it is "ineffective" or that training used to be more effective. I've yet to see anything myself that has indicated safety is getting worse.

The amount of students that come on the boards with 60 hrs and no solo, Lexington, Rochester and AF447.

 

[Henning]

High-speed ground ops have a proven record relative to safety. It's not good. That's why the conditions for aborting takeoffs drop from an entire page of possible reasons to just three -- engine fire, failure or loss of diectional control--above ~80 knots on larger airplanes.

If a student friend told me his t/w instructor started with high- speed taxi stuff, I would forbid him/her from having any future contact with the moron. [/B]

I'm not denying the record, the record is created by those who fail. I'm not saying it's the safest way to train, I say it produces the best result. When the incompetent teach the ignorant of course it's gonna go wrong.

 

[AEROBAT]

I taught my son how to fly his Avid. I got him to do lots of taxiing doing figure 8's on the ramp before we even went on the runway. Once he was able to learn to properly use the rudder pedals we did high speed taxiing learning how to control the P factor raising the tail ect.

He had trouble at first judging the flair so I got him to practice landing and holding it on one wheel and run along the centerline the length of the runway and lift off again.

The only difference between a taildragger and a trike is when they have the wheels touching the ground. High speed taxi and running along the runway on one wheel gives a person a lot more exposure to the landing phase than a few brief moments during a circuit.

 

[j1b3h0]

Because they are a different animal, load 5 barrels of fuel in the back of an otter 650 horse and see if it handles like a C-120

Agreed. A twin Beech with almost 3000lbs of freight in back requires a whole new level of center line consciousness; a fella could get hurt flying that airplane.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Perhaps I mis-understood him over the phone but I thought he talked about doing a lot of taxi-ing since in the air it will fly "similar" to my 152 so then I don't need as much in-air time as on-ground time.

I think you'll find the Citabria quite different in the air, too. Adverse yaw, steeper glide, very willing to spin. And it will outperform that 152.

Dan

 

[brcase]

Having done a lot of tailwheel instruction I am going to side more with Jesse on this I have seen a fair number of accidents trying the High Speed Taxi. The problem is that the student can get out of control so fast that no-one could recover from it. I have seen at least two bent props and a collapsed landing gear from doing High Speed Taxi's.

However I also understand the problem that a student only gets a few seconds of practice with each take-off and landing. One compromise I do is to use a longer runway and do partial power take-offs this allows the student to slowly transition from tail low to tail up and then accelerate to take off speed. Usually I control the throttle while the student concentrates on rudder, elevator and ailerons. It is still a take off but it takes longer to do, perhaps this is one of the reasons I liked teaching in 65hp Champs so much, all the takes offs are low power. Nearly all landings are to a full stop but usually only the 1st couple hours do I have them taxi back, after that we do stop and go's.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[Dan Thomas]

It's the CFI's who have failed the industry and produced the pilots we get in the front of airliners from Colgan to Air France. We have a full generation of just marginally competent pilots now and a whole bunch of them are completely incompetent in an emergency.

This marginal performance isn't limited to aviation. It extends all the way through grade school and into colleges and universities. If the kids don't want to work at learning, we just dumb it down to make it easier. And don't ever fail them; it hurts their self-esteem.

Some claim that the safety record isn't any worse than it was, but that doesn't prove that pilots are up to snuff. It just means that the current crop will have to get complacent, sloppy, out of recurrency, or start forgetting important stuff and the accident rate will balloon.

It used to be that college entrants knew how to read, write and calculate. Now we have college-level "Intoduction to Whatever" courses to teach them this stuff to fix the shortcomings. I work with European school graduates that make us North Americans look pretty silly. they don't seem to have fallen so much for the go-easy-on-the-kids stuff.

Dan

 

[Henning]

This marginal performance isn't limited to aviation. It extends all the way through grade school and into colleges and universities. If the kids don't want to work at learning, we just dumb it down to make it easier. And don't ever fail them; it hurts their self-esteem.

Some claim that the safety record isn't any worse than it was, but that doesn't prove that pilots are up to snuff. It just means that the current crop will have to get complacent, sloppy, out of recurrency, or start forgetting important stuff and the accident rate will balloon.

It used to be that college entrants knew how to read, write and calculate. Now we have college-level "Introduction to Whatever" courses to teach them this stuff to fix the shortcomings. I work with European school graduates that make us North Americans look pretty silly. they don't seem to have fallen so much for the go-easy-on-the-kids stuff.

Dan

Yep, the problem is us, the system is just compensating for our increased laziness, because that's all it's about. Too lazy to put forth the effort required to do it right.

 

[RyanShort1]

Henning,

You may indeed be completely right, but most of the training past my initial endorsement that I have received on tailwheel was from some old guys at a grass strip who'd been flying tailwheel for years, and I'm not at all confident that they fit in the AF447 category. Also, the only time that I've actually been on board when we've taken out a taxi light was during a high speed taxi... I re-evaluated some things after that, and since have mainly kept to longer roll-outs after landing vs. deliberate high speed taxis.
I think the bigger issue is guys in the "hurry-up" mode - guys getting a total of 3 hours of training and a sign-off... with barely any crosswind practice, etc.. Those things are out there, and they are a danger to their students.

Ryan

 

[wabower]

Any argument about aviation training that starts with "this isn't the safest way to do it" is DOA. Compared to safety, nothing else matters.

I'm not denying the record, the record is created by those who fail. I'm not saying it's the safest way to train, I say it produces the best result. When the incompetent teach the ignorant of course it's gonna go wrong.