Pop up IFR “flight plan”

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Druxurb

Filing Flight Plan
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Druxurb
When one gets an IFR pop up clearance, does that create a flight plan for purposes of FAR 91.173?
 
Druxurb said:
When one gets an IFR pop up clearance, does that create a flight plan for purposes of FAR 91.173?
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Sometimes ATC will refuse the pop up and tell the pilot to file with FSS first. Sometimes ATC will issue the clearance and advise the PIC to file. Some times they will just issue the clearance.

The PIC is still required to file the IFR flight plan. Otherwise the controller would have to solicit all the information required in 91.153 and 91.169.

For those who disagree, run out of fuel IFR on a pop up diverting to an unnamed alternate and see what the FAA does.
 
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Druxurb said:
When one gets an IFR pop up clearance, does that create a flight plan for purposes of FAR 91.173?
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ABBREVIATED IFR FLIGHT PLANS− An authorization by ATC requiring pilots to submit only that information needed for the purpose of ATC. It includes only a small portion of the usual IFR flight plan
information. In certain instances, this may be only aircraft identification, location, and pilot request. Other information may be requested if needed by ATC for separation/control purposes. It is frequently used by aircraft which are airborne and desire an instrument approach or by aircraft which are on the ground and desire a climb to VFR-on-top.
 
Clip4 said:
Sometimes ATC will refuse the pop up and tell the pilot to file with FSS first. Sometimes ATC will issue the clearance and advise the PIC to file. Some times they will just issue the clearance.

The PIC is still required to file the IFR flight plan. Otherwise the controller would have to solicit all the information required in 91.153 and 91.169.

For those who disagree, run out of fuel IFR on a pop up diverting to an unnamed alternate and see what the FAA
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Note the unless otherwise authorized by ATC thing and refer to my post #4 above.

§ 91.169 IFR flight plan: Information required.
(a) Information required. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person filing an IFR flight plan must include in it the following information:
(1) Information required under § 91.153 (a) of this part;
 
Why wouldn’t it?

It’s still a IFR flight plan, and when you pick it up you’re IFR just the same

When it comes to US un controlled fields, if weather permits, shy of the DC nonsense rings or TFRs, I always pick it up in the air

I misread, so my default is to file IFR on the ground and pick it up in the air

Guess this is good calling ATC, and maybe FSS and getting a IFR, well once you’re cleared it’s really all the same
 
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I have heard on the radio a few times when someone calls for a Pop Up, ATC will find an old FP in the system and just modify it. So then they have all your info.

I've heard it happen in different parts of the country, but I don't remember who I was talking to (Center, TRACON, etc.) so I don't know if all controllers can do this now. But it sure makes life easier for both sides of the radio if they can all do it.
 
It's called an abbreviated flight plan and it's legal based on the first few words of 91.169... "Unless otherwise authorized by ATC..."
 
Two different things. An airborne pick up of an existing IFR flight plan and a pop up with no flight plan on file. At my old facility a pop up for instrument approaches we used the “abbreviated IFR flight plan” format. If the aircraft wanted an entire route spanning several facilities (interfacility), we either typed it into the NAS computer with all the required flight plan info or just had them contact FSS. Controller preference depending on workload.
 
I've done lots of iterations of pop-up flight plans. The answer to your question is (as others have stated), yes, it's an IFR flight plan. Four options I gone with if I need to pick-up IFR without having filed on the ground:
1) Wait until I'm close to the destination - if I'm with the local approach controller to just get below the clouds or get on a local approach, they usually just go with the abbreviated option as others have stated. Quick and easy if they aren't too busy.
2) If it's dead on the radios and the controller isn't busy and I want to file while still en route, I'll ask very nicely to file with them. It's a bit of a pain having to pass the 14 pieces of information on the radio. I also don't love saying personal info on the radio, but it may be better than the alternative
3) If I'm low enough, I'll catch 5G and file via Foreflight on my phone or EFB. Just pick a fix or nearby airport as your departure point. It just needs to be close to your current location, not where you actually departed from. Then advise the center/approach controller that you just filed off of XXXX and they'll usually call you back in a few minutes with your clearance.
4) If the above don't work, I'll ask to go off frequency for a few minutes and file with FSS. Getting a hold of FSS can be it's own challenge, but I've usually been able to make it work in the end.
 
It also helps if you are looking for a “pop-up” clearance, to be first using flight following. Some of the needed information will already be in the system and if you just need a clearance for a landing, etc - the controller can handle it locally.

Jim
 
Depends where you are in the world. Out in the midwest I'm bopping along and getting flight following and say "Hey, it looks cloudy ahead, can I get IFR at 6000?" and they come back with "Cleared to destination maintain 6000." Other places it can be more problematic (and they send you to flight circus to file).

My favorite was heading up toward OSH one year (we arrive way early to volunteer).

27K: Looks like OSH is IFR, can I get an IFR clearance with you or do I need to go to FSS to file?
MKE: (sigh... they literally sighed over the air like...it's starting already) Are you rated and equipped?
27K: Affirmative.
MKE: OK, Cleared direct OSH maintain 3000 expect the VOR 9 approach.
27K: How about the RNAV 9?
MKE: OK, expect that.

It's kind of cool breaking out over the show. The only other time I flew in there in less than VFR conditions was in the Trimotor.
 
Was this prompted by that recent article in the Cessna magazine by some guy claiming it was illegal?

He's wrong.
 
flyingron said:
My favorite was heading up toward OSH one year (we arrive way early to volunteer).
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You know you gave that Controller a panic attack and probably began their annual OSH nightmares.

As soon as you asked he had flashes of all the idiots during the peak OSH arrivals "gee... can I get IFR with your to OSH???" :p
 
flyingron said:
Depends where you are in the world. Out in the midwest I'm bopping along and getting flight following and say "Hey, it looks cloudy ahead, can I get IFR at 6000?" and they come back with "Cleared to destination maintain 6000." Other places it can be more problematic (and they send you to flight circus to file).

My favorite was heading up toward OSH one year (we arrive way early to volunteer).

27K: Looks like OSH is IFR, can I get an IFR clearance with you or do I need to go to FSS to file?
MKE: (sigh... they literally sighed over the air like...it's starting already) Are you rated and equipped?
27K: Affirmative.
MKE: OK, Cleared direct OSH maintain 3000 expect the VOR 9 approach.
27K: How about the RNAV 9?
MKE: OK, expect that.

It's kind of cool breaking out over the show. The only other time I flew in there in less than VFR conditions was in the Trimotor.
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You know, that reminds me of a time a few weeks ago. Took off VFR but weather ended up too marginal for my comfort, so I filed via foreflight while airborne and then told the controller I wanted ot pick up the clearance whenever he had it. When he called me back with my clearance he asked if I was equipped and certified (or proficient?) for IFR flight. I'd never been asked that before and thought it was strange. I did, in fact, just file an IFR flight plan. So....yes.

Did I just sound like a noob on the radio or something?
 
TruckerJoe28 said:
You know, that reminds me of a time a few weeks ago. Took off VFR but weather ended up too marginal for my comfort, so I filed via foreflight while airborne and then told the controller I wanted ot pick up the clearance whenever he had it. When he called me back with my clearance he asked if I was equipped and certified (or proficient?) for IFR flight. I'd never been asked that before and thought it was strange. I did, in fact, just file an IFR flight plan. So....yes.

Did I just sound like a noob on the radio or something?
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Well technically when a VFR pilot has entered or about to enter IMC, and they require assistance they’re required to ask that question. That is, are you “capable and qualified?” If you just pop up VFR and request an IFR with no mention of weather, the question isn’t required…some still ask it though.
 
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M20K said:
You know you gave that Controller a panic attack and probably began their annual OSH nightmares.

As soon as you asked he had flashes of all the idiots during the peak OSH arrivals "gee... can I get IFR with your to OSH???" :p
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What about when you don’t know any better (nothing popped out in the NOTAM) and you filed IFR to an airport NW of OSH only to cancel and go VFR nearing the conga line? First and only time flying to OSH, fairly fresh IR (and I was filing all the time). Controller was not happy. Honest mistake, but in hindsight should have known better.
 
TruckerJoe28 said:
I've done lots of iterations of pop-up flight plans. The answer to your question is (as others have stated), yes, it's an IFR flight plan. Four options I gone with if I need to pick-up IFR without having filed on the ground:
1) Wait until I'm close to the destination - if I'm with the local approach controller to just get below the clouds or get on a local approach, they usually just go with the abbreviated option as others have stated. Quick and easy if they aren't too busy.
2) If it's dead on the radios and the controller isn't busy and I want to file while still en route, I'll ask very nicely to file with them. It's a bit of a pain having to pass the 14 pieces of information on the radio. I also don't love saying personal info on the radio, but it may be better than the alternative
3) If I'm low enough, I'll catch 5G and file via Foreflight on my phone or EFB. Just pick a fix or nearby airport as your departure point. It just needs to be close to your current location, not where you actually departed from. Then advise the center/approach controller that you just filed off of XXXX and they'll usually call you back in a few minutes with your clearance.
4) If the above don't work, I'll ask to go off frequency for a few minutes and file with FSS. Getting a hold of FSS can be it's own challenge, but I've usually been able to make it work in the end.
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This is the most useful thing I learned today. Thanks.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well technically when a VFR pilot has entered or about to enter IMC, and they require assistance they’re required to ask that question. That is, are you “capable and qualified?” If you just pop up VFR and request an IFR with no mention of weather, the question isn’t required…some still ask it though.
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Ah, gotcha. Thanks. I wonder what they do if the answer is no. I guess treat it like an emergency? Just thought it odd since I filed an IFR flight plan separately.
 
TruckerJoe28 said:
Ah, gotcha. Thanks. I wonder what they do if the answer is no. I guess treat it like an emergency? Just thought it odd since I filed an IFR flight plan separately.
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Well it’s under Emergency Assistance in the controllers manual but it’s really up to the controller to decide minus a declaration by the pilot. If the pilot hasn’t encountered IMC yet then they can get assistance to stay VMC without being an emergency. If they’ve already encountered it and they’re not qualified and capable? It’s going to be a given that the controller is going to treat the situation as an emergency.

Really it’s subjective. I’ve flown VFR over the top a bunch of times and on one occasion my destination (BHM) wasn’t as forcasted. They were OVC008 so I requested an IFR and the ILS24. The controller was an immediate reply “cleared to Birmingham via radar vectors…” If I had expressed concern about weather and needed radar assistance around it, then I imagine he’d ask “the question.”
 
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Velocity173 said:
Well it’s under Emergency Assistance in the controllers manual but it’s really up to the controller to decide minus a declaration by the pilot. If the pilot hasn’t encountered IMC yet then they can get assistance to stay VMC without being an emergency. If they’ve already encountered it and they’re not qualified and capable? It’s going to be a given that the controller is going to treat the situation as an emergency.

Really it’s subjective. I’ve flown VFR over the top a bunch of times and on one occasion my destination (BHM) wasn’t as forcasted. They were OVC008 so I requested an IFR and the ILS24. The controller was an immediate reply “cleared to Birmingham via radar vectors…” If I had expressed concern about weather and needed radar assistance around it, then I imagine he’d ask “the question.”
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I suspect it’s just individual controller habit. No harm asking if qualified on a pop up to a qualified pilot. Not good to miss the question when it should have been asked.

There are several of these. “Can you maintain you own terrain and obstruction clearance to…” is designed for VFR aircraft in the air asking for IFR clearance. Yet I’ve heard of controllers asking it for ground pickups. For a completely innocuous one, I’d bet almost all controllers state an altitude in an approach clearance even when it’s not required.
 
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