Poor Flight school at it again

Do you have any additional information on this? I saw the ALNOT and I know only slightly more about this than is in the news report. Mainly that a crash in LA has been ruled out due to radar forensics.
 
ferrari-tech said:
Such a shame, thoughts and prayers to the families, but no one around Van Nuys airport is surprised.
This flight school has quite the reputation around here.....
All students make sure to do your due diligence before taking lessons
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Out of curiosity, what "due diligence" would you encourage students to exercise? How would I spot a "good flight school" from a bad one? And what reputation does this school actually have?

I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious. There's one place here in particular in Sarasota that gets all kinds of bad mouthing, but I've never actually had a problem with them.

Looks like a pretty straightforward flight, wonder what went wrong..
 
The family waited until Monday morning when they were expected back Sunday afternoon to notify authorities. Wow. And no flight plan filed sounds like, so no automatic Search & Rescue begun. And what's the hit on the flight school? How did they cause it or whatever you're inferring. Cajun wants to do Catalina so I'm sure she's interested also if you know something.
 
Caramon13 said:
Out of curiosity, what "due diligence" would you encourage students to exercise? How would I spot a "good flight school" from a bad one? And what reputation does this school actually have?

I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious. There's one place here in particular in Sarasota that gets all kinds of bad mouthing, but I've never actually had a problem with them.

Looks like a pretty straightforward flight, wonder what went wrong..
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They have had multiple issues over the last few years, plane had to land on the freeway a few miles from VNY in January,

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ds-freeway-ventura-county-20160111-story.html

Often see them returning to the ramp after a run up, or having to return shortly after take off ( of course this could mean anything) the aircraft look pretty shoddy, ( they have a bunch of them, some of them in various forms of mechanical "repair") and they have been shut down a couple of times due to incomplete maintenance or records of such. Of course I'm sure there is a lot of hyperbole around but in talking to other FBO's and flight schools and the mechanics around Van Nuys and you get a pretty sorry picture.

As for due diligence I hope its what we would all do or did, talk to multiple schools, students, inspect the aircraft and records,

I have no skin in this game, just posted it as " we all need to be careful" thread.
 
Ugh. I really hope they are OK, but guessing at this point that isn't the case. My CFI hasn't really been on my side with my desire to fly to Catalina on my San Diego trip later this month. I assured him I was going up with a CFI out there and not alone (my checkride is in two weeks, so hopefully I'll have my PPC soon)... but this story isn't going to help my case. The school I'm going up with is Learn to Fly San Diego (http://www.ltfsd.com/), so thankfully not this one. Very sad for these guys. It looks like a magical place to fly into. Terrible something so great likely turned into something tragic.
 
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So easy to blame the flight school ,before the reports are in. To many factors to consider,why not wait untill the initial report is in?
 
o_O

A plane with two people that goes missing would usually get a thread title along the lines of "Plane Missing on Catalina Flight" or "Plane Possibly Down in Pacific Near Catalina". Boy, it sure is refreshing for someone to take such a unique approach.

:rolleyes:
 
Cajun, this event should not dissuade you in the least. Keep your plans. It is a great place to fly.
 
SkyDog58 said:
o_O

A plane with two people that goes missing would usually get a thread title along the lines of "Plane Missing on Catalina Flight" or "Plane Possibly Down in Pacific Near Catalina". Boy, it sure is refreshing for someone to take such a unique approach.

:rolleyes:
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I hear you... unfortunately with these guys to many little things always cropping up and some big ones as well... where there is smoke there is usually fire.... but perhaps a better choice of thread title..
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Ugh. I really hope they are OK, but guessing at this point that isn't the case. My CFI hasn't really been on my side with my desire to fly to Catalina on my San Diego trip later this month. I assured him I was going up with a CFI out there and not alone (my checkride is in two weeks, so hopefully I'll have my PPC soon)... but this story isn't going to help my case. The school I'm going up with is Learn to Fly San Diego (http://www.ltfsd.com/), so thankfully not this one. Very sad for these guys. It looks like a magical place to fly into. Terrible something so great likely turned into something tragic.
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A good flight school/CFI wont let you fly to Catalina for the first time on your own, there are a lot of factors to consider... Its a fun trip but be prepared for it, and if you are have a fun day...
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Ugh. I really hope they are OK, but guessing at this point that isn't the case. My CFI hasn't really been on my side with my desire to fly to Catalina on my San Diego trip later this month. I assured him I was going up with a CFI out there and not alone (my checkride is in two weeks, so hopefully I'll have my PPC soon)... but this story isn't going to help my case. The school I'm going up with is Learn to Fly San Diego (http://www.ltfsd.com/), so thankfully not this one. Very sad for these guys. It looks like a magical place to fly into. Terrible something so great likely turned into something tragic.
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There was another crash out on Catalina two or three weeks ago too. The plane ended up on an embankment in some brush. If I remember correctly, both people survived. They aren't uncommon on the island, unfortunately.

The runway could definitely use some love, and the hump in the middle is questionable, but having a CFI that has been to Catalina on a number of occasions should serve you well. Most rental places won't even let you take their planes to Catalina unless you've been there with a CFI.
 
Even if I could go without a CFI, I wouldn't want to. Especially with a barely off the presses license, assuming I even get to do my checkride in a couple weeks (weather has not been my friend...).
 
ircphoenix said:
Most rental places won't even let you take their planes to Catalina unless you've been there with a CFI.
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I'm sure there are some that have that stipulation, but I never found that issue when I was flying in San Diego.

Catalina is no big deathtrap. Basic advance planning and research that are required skills for a private pilot will get you in and out safely.

It seems some are trying to make Catalina out in the same light as those who say that you'll die if you try to fly in the Rockies without a CFI.
 
I tried some "due diligence" online. My searches didn't come up with anything bad other than some complaints about not getting all that was offered on a Groupon coupon for a Discovery Flight. The thing that really bothers me a lot about this incident is that they weren't reported missing until the following day, Sunday afternoon. The family initiated it. SAR wasn't started until Monday. The flight was Saturday. According to the News.
 
ferrari-tech said:
A good flight school/CFI wont let you fly to Catalina for the first time on your own, there are a lot of factors to consider... Its a fun trip but be prepared for it, and if you are have a fun day...
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Umm, no.

A flight school really worried about liability won't let you fly to Catalina for the first time on your own. It's not at all a unique airport, but it's treated that way. And in this accident, that airport's quirks do not appear to be a factor. They landed and departed successfully and didn't freak out about the hump or downdrafts.

Just because many LA flight schools worry about Catalina doesn't mean they are right.
 
luvflyin said:
I The thing that really bothers me a lot about this incident is that they weren't reported missing until the following day, Sunday afternoon. The family initiated it. SAR wasn't started until Monday. The flight was Saturday. According to the News.
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Me too. And no VFR flight plan either apparently. Would have started S&R at least.
 
I used to fly to Catalina a couple times a month for lunch. I had under 100 hrs the first time and didn't find it intimidating at all. It is a nice place to sit outside and watch the world go by. If any of you go take time to fly around the island as there is some great scenery. It's a small island so it doesn't take that long. Don
 
luvflyin said:
I tried some "due diligence" online. My searches didn't come up with anything bad other than some complaints about not getting all that was offered on a Groupon coupon for a Discovery Flight. The thing that really bothers me a lot about this incident is that they weren't reported missing until the following day, Sunday afternoon. The family initiated it. SAR wasn't started until Monday. The flight was Saturday. According to the News.
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That's typical.

To keep it from happening to you, always use flight plans (that's what they are for), use flight following when available, and always make sure someone on the ground knows when you take off and when you should land.

Basically, if no one knows you have crashed, no one will look for you. And ELTs often don't survive the crash. They don't like fire or water or getting their antennas sheared off by tree limbs.

Honestly, though, going down in that water, a prompt SAR response wouldn't help. Hypothermia will kill in a few hours, exhaustion in less if you didn't bother with a life jacket. It's pretty cold water. Best bet is to ditch next to a ship or glide to shore. The latter isn't too difficult.
 
MAKG1 said:
That's typical.

To keep it from happening to you, always use flight plans (that's what they are for), use flight following when available, and always make sure someone on the ground knows when you take off and when you should land.

Basically, if no one knows you have crashed, no one will look for you. And ELTs often don't survive the crash. They don't like fire or water or getting their antennas sheared off by tree limbs.

Honestly, though, going down in that water, a prompt SAR response wouldn't help. Hypothermia will kill in a few hours, exhaustion in less if you didn't bother with a life jacket. It's pretty cold water. Best bet is to ditch next to a ship or glide to shore. The latter isn't too difficult.
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Some people like to cruise at 2500 mid channel. Makes gliding rather difficult.

And Catalina may not be unique or challenging... but they sure do have a disproportionate amount of incidents around there for being the nothing special airport some make it out to be.
 
ircphoenix said:
Some people like to cruise at 2500 mid channel. Makes gliding rather difficult.

And Catalina may not be unique or challenging... but they sure do have a disproportionate amount of incidents around there for being the nothing special airport some make it out to be.
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It's not a "nothing special" airport. It's just not very unusual. If you've never landed at an airport with surrounding terrain that isn't at sea level or in a valley floor, it would be best to do it somewhere else, perhaps with a runway in better condition without the hump.

It's definitely not the same as a level 6000x150 foot runway in the LA basin.

2500 mid channel leaves you no options. Stupid.
 
MAKG1 said:
Umm, no.

A flight school really worried about liability won't let you fly to Catalina for the first time on your own. It's not at all a unique airport, but it's treated that way. And in this accident, that airport's quirks do not appear to be a factor. They landed and departed successfully and didn't freak out about the hump or downdrafts.

Just because many LA flight schools worry about Catalina doesn't mean they are right.
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LA flight schools ( the good ones) probably worry about it, because they understand the added risk.. Its not far from the main land, but that water is deep and cold, and as has been mentioned the airport itself is a little quirky...just lots of things that you should prepare for and be aware of, but most don't and aren't.
 
ferrari-tech said:
LA flight schools ( the good ones) probably worry about it, because they understand the added risk.. Its not far from the main land, but that water is deep and cold, and as has been mentioned the airport itself is a little quirky...just lots of things that you should prepare for and be aware of, but most don't and aren't.
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And that requires an instructor? Really?

A ground school or perhaps even a pamphlet would be sufficient to tell people what you need. It's not hard.

Honestly, it's substantially more difficult to cross the Grapevine with scattered clouds and unstable air, but no one requires an instructor prior to doing that solo.
 
MAKG1 said:
And that requires an instructor? Really?

A ground school or perhaps even a pamphlet would be sufficient to tell people what you need. It's not hard.

Honestly, it's substantially more difficult to cross the Grapevine with scattered clouds and unstable air, but no one requires an instructor prior to doing that solo.
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I think the issue isn't necessarily the degree of difficulty specifically at Catalina versus something like traversing the Grapevine... I think it may be because the degree of difficulty landing almost anywhere in the basin is super low, then you get to somewhere like Catalina that requires a tiny bit more knowledge, and people who are used to landing in big flat spaces get complacent.
 
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MAKG1 said:
And that requires an instructor? Really?

A ground school or perhaps even a pamphlet would be sufficient to tell people what you need. It's not hard.

Honestly, it's substantially more difficult to cross the Grapevine with scattered clouds and unstable air, but no one requires an instructor prior to doing that solo.
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Flight schools tend to deal with "minimum standard" pilots, often because of "minimum standard" instructors.

I never figured out what training/qualification the instructors had where I rented briefly that would allow them to reliably determine that it was safe for me to fly onto a particular grass runway that particular day. Usually I just got the lecture about how dangerous grass is.
 
ferrari-tech said:
LA flight schools ( the good ones) probably worry about it, because they understand the added risk.. Its not far from the main land, but that water is deep and cold, and as has been mentioned the airport itself is a little quirky...just lots of things that you should prepare for and be aware of, but most don't and aren't.
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Whether it is 10 feet deep or 1000 feet deep doesn't matter...anything deeper than the distance from your feet to your neck is deep.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Even if I could go without a CFI, I wouldn't want to. Especially with a barely off the presses license, assuming I even get to do my checkride in a couple weeks (weather has not been my friend...).
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Good for you. I still keep pretty tough personal minimums - just the other day I diverted (with a student sitting beside me) because I didn't like the situation. Take small bites, and come back to tell us stories about 'em. That other crash they're talking about above was a friend of a friend.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Even if I could go without a CFI, I wouldn't want to. Especially with a barely off the presses license, assuming I even get to do my checkride in a couple weeks (weather has not been my friend...).
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As long as you are prepared (local checkout, research etc) you'd be able to do it on your own. It's obvious you're a very smart lady so I wouldn't get too overly concerned about flying there. Hell you've been to Block Island already! Just do it! ;):D
 
Uhhh, did I read it right? No isuse with Catalina, correct? They left Catalina, never turned up again? So, no reason to associate the loss with the stop there, or with the flight school, right?
 
Sundancer said:
Uhhh, did I read it right? No isuse with Catalina, correct? They left Catalina, never turned up again? So, no reason to associate the loss with the stop there, or with the flight school, right?
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Yeah. Something that really bothers me though is that the school didn't seem to miss their airplane, their student and their instructor. The family reported them overdue the next day. So the press says. If that's true than it seems to point to an operation that doesn't pay a lot of attention to what's going on.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. Something that really bothers me though is that the school didn't seem to miss their airplane, their student and their instructor. The family reported them overdue the next day. So the press says. If that's true than it seems to point to an operation that doesn't pay a lot of attention to what's going on.
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They are a flight school, not a dispatcher.

I wouldn't expect them to notice unless someone else needed the plane.

Some outfits have the keys in a lockbox and won't even know the plane is in use unless they actively look.

I've never, ever had a flight school complain because I was late. Only one of the FBOs ever even asked me where I was going. But I suspect that was because I was renting the plane they use to send their mechanic around.
 
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Sundancer said:
Uhhh, did I read it right? No isuse with Catalina, correct? They left Catalina, never turned up again? So, no reason to associate the loss with the stop there, or with the flight school, right?
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No, there is no reason whatsoever known to the board at this time. Most in-flight failures have nothing to do with where the airplane has been on its last flight.

Just what do you think might have happened at Catalina that would cause a failure outside the vicinity of the airport?
 
MAKG1 said:
They are a flight school, not a dispatcher.

I wouldn't expect them to notice unless someone else needed the plane.

Some outfits have the keys in a lockbox and won't even know the plane is in use unless they actively look.

I've never, ever had a flight school complain because I was late. Only one of the FBOs ever even asked me where I was going. But I suspect that was because I was renting the plane they use to send their mechanic around.
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Yeah. I've rented from places where the lockbox system is used. I'm not saying it is the FBO's "responsibility" to keep track of everyone. They are a school though, not just an FBO that rents airplanes. A school that advertises themselves as an Academy with the largest fleet and they seem to have a very large fleet. They even paint there logo on all their airplanes. It just doesn't seem the type of operation that should not be aware of were their airplanes are. Every FBO that is also a school I've rented from requires general route of flight info. Once again I'm not saying it is the schools "responisibility" to flight plan for their customers. It just seems that they not knowing where their students and instructors are with their airplanes for days at a time indicates it may not be a well managed school. Which could carry over into maintenance and other safety issues.
 
The flight was on a Saturday and quite possibly wasn't scheduled to return until near or after business hours. One of the places that I rent from is only open Monday - Saturday except for scheduled lessons. If you want to rent or drop off a plane on Sunday, schedule it in advance because the chances of the office being open are next to none. If the school has a large fleet, one plane not being on the line probably wouldn't raise questions.

(I'm only guessing in an attempt to show the above poster that it is possible to have a reason why the school didn't report the flight as being overdue.)
 
MAKG1 said:
It's not a "nothing special" airport. It's just not very unusual. If you've never landed at an airport with surrounding terrain that isn't at sea level or in a valley floor, it would be best to do it somewhere else, perhaps with a runway in better condition without the hump.

It's definitely not the same as a level 6000x150 foot runway in the LA basin.

2500 mid channel leaves you no options. Stupid.
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You keep mentioning the hump, when really the hump only effects your ability to see one end of the runway from the other. It's a non-issue really. You seem to be making a mountain out of a pretty innocuous hump. Catalina has some tricks to it, the hump is the mildest of them, and honestly it scares people more than it actually causes issues. People lock up the brakes because they think they are running out of runway, but in reality have over 1000' remaining. That's not really a hazard, nor does it really do anything besides flat spot tires. The runway condition also isn't great, but isn't horrible either. Mooneys have the stiffest landing gear ever, and I have no issue landing mine there.

Catalina is not all it's made out to be as far as hazards and runway condition are concerned. It is every bit of what it's made out to be in terms of beauty and unique locations.

Regardless, none of that seems to have anything to do with this missing plane.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. Something that really bothers me though is that the school didn't seem to miss their airplane, their student and their instructor. The family reported them overdue the next day. So the press says. If that's true than it seems to point to an operation that doesn't pay a lot of attention to what's going on.
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My club does all of its scheduling online, all the planes use the same key, and all members have that key. It's not an uncommon arrangement, and it is great for renters because it allows you to fly anytime you like, not just during business hours. Having to deal with a place with limited hours would be a big pain in the ass and would severely limit my flying. I wouldn't want to rent from an operation like that.
 
red4golf said:
The flight was on a Saturday and quite possibly wasn't scheduled to return until near or after business hours. One of the places that I rent from is only open Monday - Saturday except for scheduled lessons. If you want to rent or drop off a plane on Sunday, schedule it in advance because the chances of the office being open are next to none. If the school has a large fleet, one plane not being on the line probably wouldn't raise questions.

(I'm only guessing in an attempt to show the above poster that it is possible to have a reason why the school didn't report the flight as being overdue.)
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Yeah. That could very likely be the case.
 
You folks that seem to think that it isn't Catalina's fault that a plane went missing after it took off are forgetting about the deadly bison farts that disrupt the time-space continuum in the area.
 
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