Plane down Chicago area

MichiPilot said:
Whoa...dental records??
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Yup. And lack of family members to do a DNA test.

Yes, the implications on the condition of the remains are obvious. He didn't suffer is about the best that can be said.
 
Huh?? Don't they know who had the airplane??
Guess it could be a leagaize thingy...
 
Re: Mr

acrophile said:
I think he was going for "legal" and you were going for "legalese".
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That's the ticket.
Everyone here is just so fast to jump on everyone for a mistake, whether it be aviation related or grammar related.

Can be a truly unfriendly place unless you're one of the chosen regulars.
 
I am certain CTLSi is posting here again, I believe under two different id's.
 
Re: Mr

Kritchlow said:
That's the ticket.
Everyone here is just so fast to jump on everyone for a mistake, whether it be aviation related or grammar related.

Can be a truly unfriendly place unless you're one of the chosen regulars.
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It's that way on most internet boards though I would have thought that aviation types would treat each other better.
 
Kritchlow said:
Huh?? Don't they know who had the airplane??
Guess it could be a leagaize thingy...
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The club has known for some time. But they weren't commenting publicly until the family and friends had been notified. From the government side, I'm sure it was just dotting i's and crossing t's to make sure someone else hadn't stolen the plane or something.

Anyway, it's been published now: http://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...artlett-plane-crash-pilot-20150708-story.html

Mike Sandman was the pilot.
 
Re: Mr

Kritchlow said:
That's the ticket.

Everyone here is just so fast to jump on everyone for a mistake, whether it be aviation related or grammar related.
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I don't think he meant to criticize you; I think he was genuinely puzzled as to what you were trying to say. After all, you had typed "leagaize" for "legalize", which you thought spelled "legalese", which you thought meant law-related (legal).
 
The 172's rudder stops aren't like the 150s and aren't prone to jamming. But there are several other items that could cause problems.

The hinge brackets on the rudder itself are prone to cracking, due mostly to multiple tailstrikes. Not uncommon on training airplanes. A busted rudder hinge up top could cause bending of the rudder under heavy load

I sometimes find badly worn bottom rudder hinges, caused by both cable tension and the levering forces imparted by the rudder stops. The wind also bangs rudders back and forth and wrecks stuff.

The plastic cap on top of the fin can crack and break loose and foul the rudder.

Worn steering bungees at the nosewheel can fail internally, with the result that the bungee will jam the rudder in one direction. There's a crimp around the bungee tube that stops the spring and its washer to keep the spring preloaded and provide a positive engagement of the spring. If that washer and crimp wear, the washer can get on the other side of the crimp and jam there and not allow the bungee to extend. Chronic nosewheel shimmy would accelerate the wear.

A missing guard pin on one of the cable pulleys at the bottom of the pedestal could allow the cable to jump off and jam between the pulley and its bracket, or between the pulley and adjacent aileron cable pulley, seizing everything quite solid.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
The 172's rudder stops aren't like the 150s and aren't prone to jamming. But there are several other items that could cause problems.
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Junk in the cockpit can fall down and jam the peddles or simply distract the pilot.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I've spun a plane precisely once. The control and power inputs were so abnormal and extreme, to me, that I always find it astonishing that it happens accidentally.

I mean, every stringer and flight control was screaming "Danger!" as we approached the break. It was obvious that the plane was extremely unhappy, and it was telling me in no uncertain terms.

My guess is that you would have to be completely absorbed doing something else (like, say, restarting a stopped engine, or trying to clear an obstacle) in order to unintentionally get into such an extreme flight regime.
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I once went up with a CFI in a 152 and he demonstrated spins, both intentionally putting it into one at the break of the stall, and we also did a simulated base to final spin.

The control inputs required on the base to final stall/spin were just insane. I agree with you, I don't know how anyone could, in a "normal" training type airplane such as a 152/172/Cherokee, get themselves into a spin in the pattern. The airplane is just flying all wrong and you're really having to do a lot of crazy out-of-the-ordinary things with the controls... If I'm that jacked up on my approach that I need to be hauling on that yoke and smashing the rudder that hard, I'm going around no question.
 
Dan Thomas said:
The 172's rudder stops aren't like the 150s and aren't prone to jamming. But there are several other items that could cause problems.

The hinge brackets on the rudder itself are prone to cracking, due mostly to multiple tailstrikes. Not uncommon on training airplanes. A busted rudder hinge up top could cause bending of the rudder under heavy load

I sometimes find badly worn bottom rudder hinges, caused by both cable tension and the levering forces imparted by the rudder stops. The wind also bangs rudders back and forth and wrecks stuff.

The plastic cap on top of the fin can crack and break loose and foul the rudder.

Worn steering bungees at the nosewheel can fail internally, with the result that the bungee will jam the rudder in one direction. There's a crimp around the bungee tube that stops the spring and its washer to keep the spring preloaded and provide a positive engagement of the spring. If that washer and crimp wear, the washer can get on the other side of the crimp and jam there and not allow the bungee to extend. Chronic nosewheel shimmy would accelerate the wear.

A missing guard pin on one of the cable pulleys at the bottom of the pedestal could allow the cable to jump off and jam between the pulley and its bracket, or between the pulley and adjacent aileron cable pulley, seizing everything quite solid.

Dan
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All good points and all things the NTSB will probably be looking at very close based upon the radio call about a rudder issue. Knowing the aircraft as I do, a few of the items can probably be ruled out in my opinion but I really do not want to get into a deep analysis of it on here. Suffice it to say that I am VERY interested in the investigation and its outcome.
 
rwellner98 said:
Junk in the cockpit can fall down and jam the peddles or simply distract the pilot.
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And I believe that the amount of loose stuff in the cockpit has increased quite a bit in recent years with iPads, Stratus, GoPro, etc. All which are great tools and toys but they need to be secured.
 
SkyDog58 said:
And I believe that the amount of loose stuff in the cockpit has increased quite a bit in recent years with iPads, Stratus, GoPro, etc. All which are great tools and toys but they need to be secured.
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What I find most likely to fall (and then get lost) are old-fashioned writing implements. I don't know how likely they are to cause a rudder jam, though (I've never had that happen myself).
 
Re: Mr

Kritchlow said:
That's the ticket.
Everyone here is just so fast to jump on everyone for a mistake, whether it be aviation related or grammar related.

Can be a truly unfriendly place unless you're one of the chosen regulars.
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Nahhh...regulars aren't cut any slack by the grammar nazis and know-it-alls either!
 
Re: Mr

timwinters said:
Nahhh...regulars aren't cut any slack by the grammar nazis and know-it-alls either!
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True, and honestly, I think that is just the nature of POA and many other internet boards. It has been that way here since I first joined.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I once went up with a CFI in a 152 and he demonstrated spins, both intentionally putting it into one at the break of the stall, and we also did a simulated base to final spin.

The control inputs required on the base to final stall/spin were just insane. I agree with you, I don't know how anyone could, in a "normal" training type airplane such as a 152/172/Cherokee, get themselves into a spin in the pattern. The airplane is just flying all wrong and you're really having to do a lot of crazy out-of-the-ordinary things with the controls... If I'm that jacked up on my approach that I need to be hauling on that yoke and smashing the rudder that hard, I'm going around no question.
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It happens, even in 150s and 172s. Get a little low and add some power, keep pulling the nose up, and it will spin. Power off it takes a lot more control input. An older design like a Cub or Champ will break into a spin from a skidding turn without much warning and without much coaxing.

Cessna designed its airplanes to be safe. It comes at the expense of performance. A Champ with the same engine as a 150 will outperform that 150 by a wide margin.

Dan
 
When I was an active CFI I always offered spin demonstrations and training to my students. Most took me up on the offer. I did the vast majority of my dual given in a C152. I found it difficult to spin. I literally needed to hold full rudder and aft yoke otherwise it would recover by itself. I never spun a C172.
 
Kritchlow said:
When I was an active CFI I always offered spin demonstrations and training to my students. Most took me up on the offer. I did the vast majority of my dual given in a C152. I found it difficult to spin. I literally needed to hold full rudder and aft yoke otherwise it would recover by itself. I never spun a C172.
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It's the same in the 172. When I did my cfi spin training it was power on stall and when it broke kick in full rudder and hold the yoke full aft. If you didn't you just wouldn't spin

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk
 
Kritchlow said:
It seems hard to imagine that a 172 rudder system could cause this. Even if it jammed full scale, why would it be full scale in the first place? Doesn't make sense to me.
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I think the 152 used to have an AD or SB for the rudder jumping the bolt and locking.

nddons said:
I've been flying for 10 years, and have never been in a spin, accidentally or on purpose. I bet 90% of us non-CFI pilots can say the same thing. Spin recovery - PARE - is still just a theory to me.
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Ask around and you'll find someone, probably in their own AC. I lucked out in that the CFI I did it with extended everything to 3 hours of ground and over an hour in the air in his Pitts. We did aileron rolls and a ton of "fix this" type maneuvers after opening your eyes ... PARE is great, but all the letters occur nearly simultaneously in a Pitts, otherwise, if the recovery is slow (like my first where I recited everything) you end up reversing the spin to the opposite direction:goofy:

I took that lesson due to an incident I had at night during night currency landings. I was turning crosswind at KELP RWY 26L and caught mechanical TB off the mountain that rolled me to 90* at 800 AGL, obviously turned out OK, but was wondering whether to fight it or roll it on around (aileron roll).
 
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