Piper PA-32R-301T Saratoga

Cpt_Kirk

Cpt_Kirk

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Ted Striker
Would some of you mind if I made an aviation-related post really quick? Stopped by the shop the check up on an annual inspection.

THE ENGINE IS INSTALLED UPSIDE DOWN (THAT MUST BE WHY I WAS HAVING GEAR ISSUES).

I was certainly surprised by this. It was made obvious by looking at both the intake man., exhaust man., and baffling. Is it just this particular engine? Because it's turbocharged? The mechanic mentioned something about this same engine being installed on Navajo's.

I also wanted to get a look at both the location and size of the turbocharger. Looking around more or less showed everything I expected and I was glad to finally see what I was screwing around with underneath the cowling. Seeing the engine like this tends to drive home the point about good engine management.

Any recommendations about operating one of these? Any little pointer helps me out. I'm very familiar with Piper products, just not this particular engine.
 

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That's the one with the sturgeon looking cowl right? Yeah, they did an up flow with the cooling air instead of down, I never did quite figure out what advantage they were seeking with that, and I don't think it worked well because they gave it up.
 
Henning said:
That's the one with the sturgeon looking cowl right? Yeah, they did an up flow with the cooling air instead of down, I never did quite figure out what advantage they were seeking with that, and I don't think it worked well because they gave it up.
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big_DSC05383.JPG

Looks like this one.
 
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Instead of blowing **** down it blows gunk up.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Would some of you mind if I made an aviation-related post really quick? Stopped by the shop the check up on an annual inspection.

THE ENGINE IS INSTALLED UPSIDE DOWN (THAT MUST BE WHY I WAS HAVING GEAR ISSUES).

I was certainly surprised by this. It was made obvious by looking at both the intake man., exhaust man., and baffling. Is it just this particular engine? Because it's turbocharged? The mechanic mentioned something about this same engine being installed on Navajo's.

The only other engine I know that was installed upside down was the Daimler-Benz (& Jumo) installed in the -109.

I also wanted to get a look at both the location and size of the turbocharger. Looking around more or less showed everything I expected and I was glad to finally see what I was screwing around with underneath the cowling. Seeing the engine like this tends to drive home the point about good engine management.

Any recommendations about operating one of these? Any little pointer helps me out. I'm very familiar with Piper products, just not this particular engine.
Click to expand...

Is this your have plane? What Year is it? 1980?
 
For at least one year they also made a "fishmouth" PA-28. Toby Speed had one at the Lancaster fly-in a long time ago.
 
Skip Miller said:
For at least one year they also made a "fishmouth" PA-28. Toby Speed had one at the Lancaster fly-in a long time ago.
Click to expand...

Henning said:
Huh, never saw that on the -28 series.
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I haven't either on a factory model, unless Skip means the 1980 PA-28-201T "Turbo Dakota" (below). Except for the fixed gear, it's the same as the Turbo Arrow engine/cowl. Or he might have seen an aftermarket STC cowl.

pa-28-201t_1980.jpg
 
I have a 1980 with the original cowling. Engine heat is the only problem I have with my plane. For me at 65% power I have to run 19.5 GPH to keep the hottest cylinder at or just under 380 degrees. I use the POH numbers to set the Manifold Pressure for the altitude I am flying.

Also with a turbo above 20 inches you will need to reduce the manifold pressure by 1 inch per minute to prevent shock cooling.

I take off with 30 inches of MP and 1 notch of flaps at most "flat lander" airports. At High Altitude Airports I use 35 inches MP and lean the mixture to fit the altitude.

If I think of something else I will let you know.

Have fun. Nice looking bird!
 
Scott@KTYR said:
I have a 1980 with the original cowling. Engine heat is the only problem I have with my plane. For me at 65% power I have to run 19.5 GPH to keep the hottest cylinder at or just under 380 degrees. I use the POH numbers to set the Manifold Pressure for the altitude I am flying.

I take off with 30 inches of MP and 1 notch of flaps at most "flat lander" airports. At High Altitude Airports I use 35 inches MP and lean the mixture to fit the altitude.

If I think of something else I will let you know.

Have fun. Nice looking bird!
Click to expand...

Its been a few months since ive flown it, so i cant give accurate numbers on FF and temps. I know i dont have any issues keeping them under control. A FF near 20gph does sound about right.

Ive never done a partial-power takeoff in a piston. Why would you lean at high DA fields? The wastegate should be automatic and produce the necessary MAP for the full rich setting. Right?
 
You may be right. I may have a problem with my fuel flow. Two weeks ago I took off from West Yellowstone KWYS and had to lean the mixture to make full power. I will have it checked next week.
 
Pilawt said:
I haven't either on a factory model, unless Skip means the 1980 PA-28-201T "Turbo Dakota" (below). Except for the fixed gear, it's the same as the Turbo Arrow engine/cowl. Or he might have seen an aftermarket STC cowl.
Click to expand...

No, it wasn't a Dakota, let alone a turbo.

Most likely I am wrong. I checked and I don't have a photo of her plane. Looking on Airliner.net, this is the most likely culprit: PA-28-140.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/1/7/1/2694171.jpg

Sorry for the red herring! :redface:
 
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Scott@KTYR said:
You may be right. I may have a problem with my fuel flow. Two weeks ago I took off from West Yellowstone KWYS and had to lean the mixture to make full power. I will have it checked next week.
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Ever look into getting GAMIjectors? Should help to even out the spread and keep everything behaving. FF is critical for keeping the engine under control.
 
Is there an after market cowling for the turbo? I know the standard PA32-301's from that era for the Leprosti mod cowling available.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, same plane, you just have the aftermarket cowl.
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I just remember that it has just about every LoPresti mod on it. When I take it up again, I'll give a PIREP on cruise speeds with fuel burn to give someone an idea on its performance.
 
SkyDog58 said:
But that does not equate to the engine being installed upside down. :no:
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I believe, especially considering the following statement, that comment was made in jest, at least I took it that way. The airflow is "upside down" and those models with up flow air have always had cooling issues which is likely why they gave it up.
 
I'm flying a 77 Lance and compared to mine, it does appear like it's upside down. We have no engine heat issues with the "right-side-up" engine.
 
Code90 said:
I'm flying a 77 Lance and compared to mine, it does appear like it's upside down. We have no engine heat issues with the "right-side-up" engine.
Click to expand...

I don't recall having any major heating issues with this one. It may take more gas to get the temps to a spot where I would like them, but I can keep them under control pretty easily. I wish I had cowl flaps.

I need to have a better understanding and be more comfortable with this engine before I think about LOP ops (where I would prefer to operate any engine, if possible).
 
Quick question: On the tach is a note reminding me to pull the power back to 33" and 2,550rpm within 5 minutes. This Saratoga has the composite MT prop. Am I still subject to this RPM limitation? Was it put in place because of the MT prop? Don't see anything on mt-propeller's website right now.

I'm guessing it an overall engine HP limitation, regardless of the prop.
 
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Correct on the Lance. Not turbo charged (and why I have no clue about MP of 33").

We put in a JPI engine monitor last spring. Have been playing with leaning, but in our plane, there is not much of a swing ROP to LOP. Maybe a gallon an hour? 14 vs 13 gph? Temperatures never swing that much with either. Don't think I have every seen a CHT over about 340 max
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Quick question: On the tach is a note reminding me to pull the power back to 33" and 2,550rpm within 5 minutes. This Saratoga has the composite MT prop. Am I still subject to this RPM limitation? Was it put in place because of the MT prop? Don't see anything on mt-propeller's website right now.

I'm guessing it an overall engine HP limitation, regardless of the prop.
Click to expand...

On my 1980 Toga if I go 35" at 2695rpm (POH Takeoff setting) for more than 5 min. it will overheat in one cylinder.
 
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