Pilot Career Question

First day at the airline goes something like this.......... The person from manpower or personel of what ever you call them walks in. They congratulate you on your successful employment at this airline. "We only hire the best of the best, and YOUR one of them". "You just won the lottery and YOUR going to be a rock star!!!!!!" Your going to be a senior Capt in 6 months. we have plans in place for that to happen. Second day in class. "oh plans have changed, HERE IS YOUR FURLOUGH NOTICE! Don't call us we'll call you". Nobody will hire you for ANYTHING, even Micky D,s is reluctant to hire you. They know you will quit the minute you get recalled. You had better have a skill that you can sell without depending on any company. Because you will need to feed yourself while on furlough. And if the furlough lasts long enough, you probably will loose any recall rights you thought you had. Boom times lead to bust times. It can be really ugly for the junior people when the bust happens. Be prepared has a whole new meaning for pilots who have been through it.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
This is risky. I have one former primary student now flying F/A-18s. But some folks selected for pilot training in the military end up as drone pilots, and I doubt that is what they signed up for. It's been a long time since I went through Air Force pilot training, and perhaps it has changed a lot, but back then the wash out rate was around 33%. I doubt any of those fellows loved their new assignments.

Do you like those odds?
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When I went through (10+ years after you), the numbers I heard was around 27,000 applicants for some 2800 acceptance letters. About 1400 actually showed up, and 33% washed out.
 
ApolloDog said:
I am a college student graduating in May with a degree in business. I have had an internship in Corporate America long to enough to know it is not for me. I have loved airplanes and traveling my entire life. I am also having a very hard time finding a job. I am considering upon graduation saying the hell with it and going to flight school. There is a 141 flight school I could attend where I live and I am fairly sure I could get to the 250 and ultimately 1500 with them. It would obviously cost a lot of money, but with pilot shortages it seems like I would not have trouble paying it off. It seems like that being an airline pilot would pay me more, let me enjoy my job more, give me better job security, and make getting a job easier, than if I went to Corporate America. So, to pilots in the industry, am I crazy or not? TIA for any advice.
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I have just retired from being a corporate pilot and having a flight school for 30 years. The airlines do pay more and are more stable, but you pay the price since it is very boring! With corporate flying you need to understand the politics of the company and being able to get along with hard to deal with people. After being told “no one cares what you think” I would just said “Yes sir!” And then do whatever needed to get done on the plane or with the paperwork on my own. On the bright side with being a corporate pilot, you go to wonderful places! No one with a million dollar plane goes to crappy places. Sorry you had a bad experience with corporate flying already. You will need less hours to get on board with another corporate flight department, so I would recommend you give it another try. Best of luck!
 
brien23 said:
For those getting in to commercial aviation now what the industry looks like in 20 or 30 years from now might not be so good. In January, Boeing CEO Dave Calhoun revealed an open secret in the world of aviation. “I think the future of autonomy is real for civil,”. Now it’s becoming increasingly clear that self-flying planes are coming to commercial aviation. For those who wont get on one, plan on paying a lot more or take the train for travel. Southwest airlines had problems with unhappy passenger problems, but has no shortage of people that want to fly on their planes due to the cheaper price. We would still be flying DC-3 airliners if they were cheaper way to fly than airlines have now and will change again in the years to come. Just remember you are only one medical away from the unemployment line as a airline pilot.
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My guess is that it will take a lot longer than people imagine to gather enough data to determine that self-flying airliners have a safety record equal to or better than human airline pilots.
 
It’s the AI FOMO. Hype will calm down in a while.
 
Palmpilot said:
My guess is that it will take a lot longer than people imagine to gather enough data to determine that self-flying airliners have a safety record equal to or better than human airline pilots.
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A few more airline pilots trying to turn the engines off in flight or suicide by pilot in which a pilot deliberately crashes or attempts to crash an aircraft as a way to kill themself and sometimes passengers on board or people on the ground. United Airlines Flight 175 was deliberately crashed into 2 World Trade Center as part of the September 11 attacks. The public will probably be more likely to except AI autonomy airline travel.
 
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Yup. safety analysis incorporating deliberate sabotage is a huge challenge

But not to worry, I am sure that AI will be immune to sabotage
 
brien23 said:
A few more airline pilots trying to turn the engines off in flight or suicide by pilot in which a pilot deliberately crashes or attempts to crash an aircraft as a way to kill themself and sometimes passengers on board or people on the ground. United Airlines Flight 175 was deliberately crashed into 2 World Trade Center as part of the September 11 attacks. The public will probably be more likely to except AI autonomy airline travel.
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Public acceptance is guesswork. I think the FAA would be more interested in data.
 
brien23 said:
A few more airline pilots trying to turn the engines off in flight or suicide by pilot in which a pilot deliberately crashes or attempts to crash an aircraft as a way to kill themself and sometimes passengers on board or people on the ground. United Airlines Flight 175 was deliberately crashed into 2 World Trade Center as part of the September 11 attacks. The public will probably be more likely to except AI autonomy airline travel.
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I’m skeptical.

I don’t think there will ever be a time when an airliner won’t be required to have a human in the cockpit. And for the human to have any purpose in being there, he will have to have the ability to override the automation. And as long as he can do that, the things you mention will still be possible.
 
Not to hijack the thread but I was asking similar questions about a year ago. I'm well established in the medical field but I have always wanted to be a professional pilot. My brain was pushing me to stay put but my gutt feeling was telling me to go for it. finally got brave enough to get the wife's opinion. I was expecting her to slap me back to reality and say you're where you need to be. But, she said I think you should go for it. life is too short. I want you to be happy. then I asked a bunch of others whose opinions I respect and most told me to go for it.

so, a few months ago I decided I am going for it. I am 47 now. just have 500 hrs, instrument rated and working on my commercial. I believe I will have 1200 hrs by next xmas. I plan on applying for jobs at 1200 and really hoping it works out. I am about 90% committed at this point.
 
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Predicting the future of airline pilot hiring is tougher than predicting the weather that far in advance. Delta has already announced their hiring plans for 2024 will involve half the number of pilots they hired in 2023. I haven’t heard the other legacys’ plans for 2024 yet. The wave may not be over, but it has likely crested already. Nothing wrong with pursuing a dream, but include enough flexibility in your plan that you can roll with the punches.
 
Times are great, pay rates are up, opportunity is everywhere, or that's what I keep hearing. But, try to find an entry level job that pays more than Burger King!
I was flying part 91 corporate, I got hired because I was a friend of the owner, but the insurance company did not like my hours. I was going to have to get, at a minimum, 250 hours in the right seat of the PC12 before I would be allowed to fly it. But, I heard 250 hours, I heard up to 400 hours, and then it changed to "significant hours". Not too bad right? Except that I was only getting about 200 hours a year, I quit the job for a lot of reasons. 3 months later they didn't even own the PC12 anymore, bought a King Air 250. I can only imagine how many hours of right seat the insurance company would want before I was PIC. My decision to leave was a good one. In that flight department no one flew recreationally, I was the only one of 8 pilots that had their own airplane, it was just a job to all of them. Pay was pretty good, but being on call 24/7 except for vacation is pretty tough. You had to be ready to fly within 2 hours, having just moved to a place that I did not care for, just for the job, I couldn't find much to do with my time while not flying, no one would hire me for a part time job in construction because I could not commit to any type of schedule. In 8 months I got under 200hrs total, with 51 PIC.
I am now looking for another flying job. I am about 1400 hours, multi rated but no real time, instrument rated, have about 60hrs turbine PIC, 130hrs turbine right seat. I have all the 135 requirements except night time, even with that, the jobs I qualify for are very limited, pay is low, and the locations are far from appealing. I see caravan cargo jobs listed at $70,000 a year for 6 days a week in SLC, and I have had several people tell me that I don't want to work for them. I am looking at Alaska this summer to build some hours, and get some 135 time, even that is a problem for the insurance companies, I have no Alaska time and they want 1500hrs for DAY VFR in a 206!
There are plenty of low paying jobs out there, I had an interview with one that was offering $200/day with an additional $30 per flight hour, likely to get 250-300 hours in 5 months. Ok, not horrible, but you lived on an island, they had a bunk in a bunkroom available for $800/month. What does food cost on an island? beer? after a few months of that, you'd be lucky to be able to afford a plane ticket home!
It looks rosy from the outside, but it takes a lot to get to a "good" job. More than just getting 1500hrs. They want multi time, turbine time, time in make and model.
I am working on my CFI so I can do tailwheel and backcountry instruction. Maybe a part 135 job will come up along the way.
 
Wagondriver said:
Times are great, pay rates are up, opportunity is everywhere, or that's what I keep hearing. But, try to find an entry level job that pays more than Burger King!
I was flying part 91 corporate, I got hired because I was a friend of the owner, but the insurance company did not like my hours. I was going to have to get, at a minimum, 250 hours in the right seat of the PC12 before I would be allowed to fly it. But, I heard 250 hours, I heard up to 400 hours, and then it changed to "significant hours". Not too bad right? Except that I was only getting about 200 hours a year, I quit the job for a lot of reasons. 3 months later they didn't even own the PC12 anymore, bought a King Air 250. I can only imagine how many hours of right seat the insurance company would want before I was PIC. My decision to leave was a good one. In that flight department no one flew recreationally, I was the only one of 8 pilots that had their own airplane, it was just a job to all of them. Pay was pretty good, but being on call 24/7 except for vacation is pretty tough. You had to be ready to fly within 2 hours, having just moved to a place that I did not care for, just for the job, I couldn't find much to do with my time while not flying, no one would hire me for a part time job in construction because I could not commit to any type of schedule. In 8 months I got under 200hrs total, with 51 PIC.
I am now looking for another flying job. I am about 1400 hours, multi rated but no real time, instrument rated, have about 60hrs turbine PIC, 130hrs turbine right seat. I have all the 135 requirements except night time, even with that, the jobs I qualify for are very limited, pay is low, and the locations are far from appealing. I see caravan cargo jobs listed at $70,000 a year for 6 days a week in SLC, and I have had several people tell me that I don't want to work for them. I am looking at Alaska this summer to build some hours, and get some 135 time, even that is a problem for the insurance companies, I have no Alaska time and they want 1500hrs for DAY VFR in a 206!
There are plenty of low paying jobs out there, I had an interview with one that was offering $200/day with an additional $30 per flight hour, likely to get 250-300 hours in 5 months. Ok, not horrible, but you lived on an island, they had a bunk in a bunkroom available for $800/month. What does food cost on an island? beer? after a few months of that, you'd be lucky to be able to afford a plane ticket home!
It looks rosy from the outside, but it takes a lot to get to a "good" job. More than just getting 1500hrs. They want multi time, turbine time, time in make and model.
I am working on my CFI so I can do tailwheel and backcountry instruction. Maybe a part 135 job will come up along the way.
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mostly this. everyone says how rosy it is. I'm not seeing it, unless you want a 35k/year job (I know, I know, you gotta pay your dues, blah blah...). but I'm getting close to 1200 hours which I 'think'/hope will open a few more doors.
 
Wagondriver said:
Times are great, pay rates are up, opportunity is everywhere, or that's what I keep hearing. But, try to find an entry level job that pays more than Burger King!
I was flying part 91 corporate, I got hired because I was a friend of the owner, but the insurance company did not like my hours. I was going to have to get, at a minimum, 250 hours in the right seat of the PC12 before I would be allowed to fly it. But, I heard 250 hours, I heard up to 400 hours, and then it changed to "significant hours". Not too bad right? Except that I was only getting about 200 hours a year, I quit the job for a lot of reasons. 3 months later they didn't even own the PC12 anymore, bought a King Air 250. I can only imagine how many hours of right seat the insurance company would want before I was PIC. My decision to leave was a good one. In that flight department no one flew recreationally, I was the only one of 8 pilots that had their own airplane, it was just a job to all of them. Pay was pretty good, but being on call 24/7 except for vacation is pretty tough. You had to be ready to fly within 2 hours, having just moved to a place that I did not care for, just for the job, I couldn't find much to do with my time while not flying, no one would hire me for a part time job in construction because I could not commit to any type of schedule. In 8 months I got under 200hrs total, with 51 PIC.
I am now looking for another flying job. I am about 1400 hours, multi rated but no real time, instrument rated, have about 60hrs turbine PIC, 130hrs turbine right seat. I have all the 135 requirements except night time, even with that, the jobs I qualify for are very limited, pay is low, and the locations are far from appealing. I see caravan cargo jobs listed at $70,000 a year for 6 days a week in SLC, and I have had several people tell me that I don't want to work for them. I am looking at Alaska this summer to build some hours, and get some 135 time, even that is a problem for the insurance companies, I have no Alaska time and they want 1500hrs for DAY VFR in a 206!
There are plenty of low paying jobs out there, I had an interview with one that was offering $200/day with an additional $30 per flight hour, likely to get 250-300 hours in 5 months. Ok, not horrible, but you lived on an island, they had a bunk in a bunkroom available for $800/month. What does food cost on an island? beer? after a few months of that, you'd be lucky to be able to afford a plane ticket home!
It looks rosy from the outside, but it takes a lot to get to a "good" job. More than just getting 1500hrs. They want multi time, turbine time, time in make and model.
I am working on my CFI so I can do tailwheel and backcountry instruction. Maybe a part 135 job will come up along the way.
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Nothing new. It's always been that way. Recently its been much better than it generally was in the past. The future, who knows. Will it go back to 5000+ with 1500 Turbine, and 2000+ PIC at least one type rating and at least 4 yrs of ivy league and not over 30 yrs old? That was pretty common for many years. I know that doesn't sound good to people trying to get in, but it was normal for many years. Then plan for the first 5 years of on and off furlough. Yes it sucks1
 
I can tell you that they aren’t *that* desperate for FOs at the moment. I’ve got over 6k TT and have already been turned down by two places. Working on getting my multi time more competitive but I suspect a lot of people hitting 1500 with a ton of debt are going to be in for a rude surprise.
 
Wagondriver said:
I was flying part 91 corporate, I got hired because I was a friend of the owner, but the insurance company did not like my hours. I was going to have to get, at a minimum, 250 hours in the right seat of the PC12 before I would be allowed to fly it. But, I heard 250 hours, I heard up to 400 hours, and then it changed to "significant hours". Not too bad right? Except that I was only getting about 200 hours a year, I quit the job for a lot of reasons. 3 months later they didn't even own the PC12 anymore, bought a King Air 250. I can only imagine how many hours of right seat the insurance company would want before I was PIC.
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So you felt as an entry level pilot you should just be given a "check out" and put over in the PIC position? "Only" 200 hours per year? Should the company find extra flying to benefit you? Are they in the business to maximize your flight time?
Wagondriver said:
My decision to leave was a good one. In that flight department no one flew recreationally, I was the only one of 8 pilots that had their own airplane, it was just a job to all of them.
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Is that how you judge the quality of a flying job? Hate to break it to you, but in professional aviation very few pilots have their own airplane, or fly recreationally. Yes, it is a job, that's why they are doing it. They aren't there to be in a "flying club".
Wagondriver said:
Pay was pretty good, but being on call 24/7 except for vacation is pretty tough. You had to be ready to fly within 2 hours, having just moved to a place that I did not care for, just for the job, I couldn't find much to do with my time while not flying, no one would hire me for a part time job in construction because I could not commit to any type of schedule. In 8 months I got under 200hrs total, with 51 PIC.
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Again, what part of "entry level" are you failing to understand?
Wagondriver said:
I am now looking for another flying job. I am about 1400 hours, multi rated but no real time, instrument rated, have about 60hrs turbine PIC, 130hrs turbine right seat. I have all the 135 requirements except night time, even with that, the jobs I qualify for are very limited, pay is low, and the locations are far from appealing.
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You are very low time, entry level. And you keep demonstrating you are not willing to put in the time and effort to get yourself into a better position that would open up better jobs for you.
Wagondriver said:
I see caravan cargo jobs listed at $70,000 a year for 6 days a week in SLC, and I have had several people tell me that I don't want to work for them.
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And how many hours a year does that fly? Enough that in one year you would qualify for a better job? How about networking? Pilots flying those Caravan jobs network themselves into better positions.
Wagondriver said:
I am looking at Alaska this summer to build some hours, and get some 135 time, even that is a problem for the insurance companies, I have no Alaska time and they want 1500hrs for DAY VFR in a 206!
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The Alaska folks don't have a problem finding pilots above the entry level.
Wagondriver said:
There are plenty of low paying jobs out there,
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Again, it's apparent you aren't interested in entry level and working your way up. Can't help you there, and you are finding out there is little to no opportunity for those who think they can skip over the entry level jobs.
Wagondriver said:
It looks rosy from the outside, but it takes a lot to get to a "good" job. More than just getting 1500hrs. They want multi time, turbine time, time in make and model.
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Yes, it takes effort and determination. For those who want it, it's doable.
Wagondriver said:
I am working on my CFI so I can do tailwheel and backcountry instruction. Maybe a part 135 job will come up along the way.
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Professional aviation is not for everyone, and weeds out those not willing to put in the time and effort.

Best of luck in your endeavors.
 
eman1200 said:
mostly this. everyone says how rosy it is. I'm not seeing it, unless you want a 35k/year job (I know, I know, you gotta pay your dues, blah blah...). but I'm getting close to 1200 hours which I 'think'/hope will open a few more doors.
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I took pay cuts twice in my career to get ahead. They both paid off. Ya gotta want it.
 
Wasn’t it just a few years ago when regional airlines asked their pilots not to wear their uniforms when standing in line for food stamps?
 
That was a real thing btw.
 
10 years ago maybe?
 
Well, these replies are a bit discouraging on this New Year's day. lol
I don't know where my journey will lead me because frankly I am very new into aviation and a complete novice. However, I am not scared of putting in hard work and sacrifice to get what I want. I am honestly hoping I could make a living as a career in aviation no matter what that may look like. Anything north of 150k per year and I'll be happier than a clown to do it. I love flying.
 
Doc Holliday said:
So you felt as an entry level pilot you should just be given a "check out" and put over in the PIC position? "Only" 200 hours per year? Should the company find extra flying to benefit you? Are they in the business to maximize your flight time?

Is that how you judge the quality of a flying job? Hate to break it to you, but in professional aviation very few pilots have their own airplane, or fly recreationally. Yes, it is a job, that's why they are doing it. They aren't there to be in a "flying club".

Again, what part of "entry level" are you failing to understand?

You are very low time, entry level. And you keep demonstrating you are not willing to put in the time and effort to get yourself into a better position that would open up better jobs for you.

And how many hours a year does that fly? Enough that in one year you would qualify for a better job? How about networking? Pilots flying those Caravan jobs network themselves into better positions.

The Alaska folks don't have a problem finding pilots above the entry level.

Again, it's apparent you aren't interested in entry level and working your way up. Can't help you there, and you are finding out there is little to no opportunity for those who think they can skip over the entry level jobs.

Yes, it takes effort and determination. For those who want it, it's doable.

Professional aviation is not for everyone, and weeds out those not willing to put in the time and effort.

Best of luck in your endeavors.
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You are correct, I am not willing to "pay my dues" for a few years. I am 53, I don't need the job, I just like to fly.
But, you cherry picked my post to get your point across, when you are promised 250 hours of flying left seat in a Caravan in 4 months, then only get 37 hours, its kind of a joke. When you are promised PIC in a PC12 with a couple months of right seat, only to be taken off of several flights because of political bs in the company so your hours are adding up so slowly at work, that you are flying more hours recreationally than at work. You are offered a trip to flight safety for CJ-3, but the insurance company says you will need 500 hours right seat first, but the company has 4 other pilots that want that seat, and the plane will only fly about 400 hours a year total, but then a few months later they decide not to sell the pc12 and buy the cj3. If I had stayed at that job, it would have been 3 to 4 years at the rate I was going that I would have "paid my dues" and been able to fly anything, so yeah, "it weeded me out".
So, yeah, I am not interested in "paying my dues". Quality of life means a whole lot more to me than working for peanuts in a place I don't want to be. I'll continue to build my hours and wait for a job that works for me.
I have talked to a lot of people in Alaska, some pay well, some pay ****. Flying a 206 day VFR in Alaska is not entry level?
 
Wagondriver said:
You are correct, I am not willing to "pay my dues" for a few years. I am 53, I don't need the job, I just like to fly.
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Doesn't change anything. You lack experience. No one is going to pay you top dollar for an entry level job.
Wagondriver said:
But, you cherry picked my post to get your point across,
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No, I just replied to your posting. No cherry picking.
Wagondriver said:
when you are promised 250 hours of flying left seat in a Caravan in 4 months, then only get 37 hours, its kind of a joke. When you are promised PIC in a PC12 with a couple months of right seat, only to be taken off of several flights because of political bs in the company so your hours are adding up so slowly at work, that you are flying more hours recreationally than at work.
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So you chose poorly. Why not move on? But, you've already stated you don't want an entry level job, so there's that.
Wagondriver said:
You are offered a trip to flight safety for CJ-3, but the insurance company says you will need 500 hours right seat first, but the company has 4 other pilots that want that seat, and the plane will only fly about 400 hours a year total, but then a few months later they decide not to sell the pc12 and buy the cj3. If I had stayed at that job, it would have been 3 to 4 years at the rate I was going that I would have "paid my dues" and been able to fly anything, so yeah, "it weeded me out".
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Correct. Insurance will not insure a low time pilot as PIC in a jet. But if you just like to fly, and you don't need the job as you've stated, then why the problem with being in the right seat?
Wagondriver said:
So, yeah, I am not interested in "paying my dues". Quality of life means a whole lot more to me than working for peanuts in a place I don't want to be. I'll continue to build my hours and wait for a job that works for me.
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You'll be waiting for a long time.
Wagondriver said:
I have talked to a lot of people in Alaska, some pay well, some pay ****. Flying a 206 day VFR in Alaska is not entry level?
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Alaska is a total different environment than the lower 48. There are a few Alaska pilots here, ask them their thoughts on a low time inexperienced pilot flying a C206 there.
 
schmookeeg said:
It's clickbait, but in analog form that you can carry around everywhere without need for wifi or a charger. What a time to be alive. :D
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eh - it was and maybe will again in the future a real thing that entry level flying is paid poorly. I don’t have a dog in this fight. It just is what it is for new pilots.
 
From what I've read and heard, the weather in Alaska is challenging enough to make highly experienced pilots a necessity.
 
Wagondriver said:
You are correct, I am not willing to "pay my dues" for a few years. I am 53, I don't need the job, I just like to fly.
But, you cherry picked my post to get your point across, when you are promised 250 hours of flying left seat in a Caravan in 4 months, then only get 37 hours, its kind of a joke. When you are promised PIC in a PC12 with a couple months of right seat, only to be taken off of several flights because of political bs in the company so your hours are adding up so slowly at work, that you are flying more hours recreationally than at work. You are offered a trip to flight safety for CJ-3, but the insurance company says you will need 500 hours right seat first, but the company has 4 other pilots that want that seat, and the plane will only fly about 400 hours a year total, but then a few months later they decide not to sell the pc12 and buy the cj3. If I had stayed at that job, it would have been 3 to 4 years at the rate I was going that I would have "paid my dues" and been able to fly anything, so yeah, "it weeded me out".
So, yeah, I am not interested in "paying my dues". Quality of life means a whole lot more to me than working for peanuts in a place I don't want to be. I'll continue to build my hours and wait for a job that works for me.
I have talked to a lot of people in Alaska, some pay well, some pay ****. Flying a 206 day VFR in Alaska is not entry level?
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Yes it sucks. Welcome to trying to make a living in aviation. And these are the good times. Historically "Normal" times were much worse.
 
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