PIC Logging Situation Question

Ron Levy said:
You should have asked that CFI to show you the regulations which say that. I suggest you read the regs I've cited above to support my statements.
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I don't personally care :lol:. I don't log most flights anyway.
 
Henning said:
I don't personally care :lol:. I don't log most flights anyway.
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Oh, now I get it. You don't care or have any meat in this game, you just wanna chime in with "what you were told".
I hate that expression/explanation.
It only perpetuates the continued passing on of misunderstandings.
 
Henning said:
Think about it for a minute. If there is no one under the hood, there is only one PIC correct? Since the other person is not a CFI, they are a passenger. Unless you are current on take offs and landings, you cannot act as PIC during that phase of flight, so how can you log it?:dunno:
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Sole manipulator of the controls.

Read the flow chart. Love the flow chart.
 
nosehair said:
Oh, now I get it. You don't care or have any meat in this game, you just wanna chime in with "what you were told".
I hate that expression/explanation.
It only perpetuates the continued passing on of misunderstandings.
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I never researched it, no, I had no reason to. Normally it's irrelevant to me. IfI am making the flight with someone that is not a pilot, I have to get current with a CFI or solo anyway. If I am flying with another pilot, it is usually with them as PIC anyway and I'm not going to log the time I spend manipulating the controls on that flight regardless. So no, I dont care, I do not focus my life around rules and minutia that have no real effect on me.

I did put put out common incorrect information into an educational forum though where it was publicly corrected.;)
 
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nosehair said:
Oh, now I get it. You don't care or have any meat in this game, you just wanna chime in with "what you were told".
I hate that expression/explanation.
It only perpetuates the continued passing on of misunderstandings.
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"I read on the internet........." :rolleyes: :rofl:
 
Ron Levy said:
Then the Student Pilot is not logging PIC time, since the only way a Student Pilot can log PIC time is as the sole occupant (the airship exception notwithstanding). The Student can certainly log it as XC training time, but not XC PIC time, and this part of the discussion is about XC PIC time. And since this discussion is about two PP's flying together (no instructor involved), there is no training time to be logged by either.
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I was asking about the XC logging and not the PIC loggin, I could have been more clear.

I also intended to use Student in a broader sense, rated or not..
 
So who logs it if after takeoff they put on the auto pilot for the enroute portion. And what do they log? Is it just the .1 for takeoff and .1 for landing that one of them would log? There is no sole manipulator of the controls.
 
TommyG said:
So who logs it if after takeoff they put on the auto pilot for the enroute portion. And what do they log? Is it just the .1 for takeoff and .1 for landing that one of them would log? There is no sole manipulator of the controls.
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"Controls" covers more than just the yoke and throttle. There are "controls" on the autopilot too.
 
ja_user said:
I was asking about the XC logging and not the PIC loggin, I could have been more clear.

I also intended to use Student in a broader sense, rated or not..
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Unfortunately, on these questions, the devil is in the details. It's real easy to create an inaccurate understanding in someone's mind if you aren't very careful about the specifics since the answer can change dramatically based on one small change in the question.
 
"Everything on the internet is true." Abraham Lincoln, 1884
 
Bobanna said:
Lincoln died in 1865. Was this a typo? Just wondering...
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Well, it was during the time transport back during Bill & Ted's Excellent Aventure, so you have to allow for the transitional temporal state anomaly in the quote. They happened to be traveling through 1884 when it occured.
 
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Bobanna said:
Lincoln died in 1865. Was this a typo? Just wondering...
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you-serious-clark-o-s.gif
 
Bobanna said:
Lincoln died in 1865. Was this a typo? Just wondering...
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He really didn't die...he was abducted by aliens and replicated several times, one of which was Elvis.

Apparently you only read selected parts of the internet, not ALL of it!:nono:
 
Ron Levy said:
The F/O is the sole manipulator for the time s/he is controlling the plane. The Captain is the sole manipulator for the time s/he is controlling the plane. As you describe it, it appears they are taking turns being the sole manipulator.
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I'm absolutely certain you are correctly legally, but it's still mind boggling. The Airbus, if left alone as per my previous post, will fly itself to a landing without intervention until final pull of the throttles. Somehow, me as a new pilot in the 320 and new to part 121, can log everything as PIC until (by sop) the capt is in charge for the autoland.
I get that it's legal, but my logbook represents when I wss actually pic and when I wasn't. To each their own, but I find it almost like cheating.

For those herd that are considering airlines in the future, I have known pilots who have been blackballed for logging pic in those situations.
 
Kritchlow said:
I'm absolutely certain you are correctly legally, but it's still mind boggling. ... but I find it almost like cheating.
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You're expecting more from the logging rules than they are intended to provide. You are expecting the logging rules (14 CFR 61.51) to produce a logbook that is a real world representation of flying experience. That is not the intent of 61.51.

14 CFR 61.51 - Pilot logbooks.
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
​

As far as the regulations are concerned, the only purpose for logged time is to document the training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review or the experience required to meet the recent flight experience requirements. The remainder of 61.51 details the how, when, and what that can be logged toward those two rather specific purposes.

That is what the FAA wants you to use toward those specific experience and currency requirements. Doesn't have to make sense in a larger scope.

This is why almost all airlines specify their own requirements for what flight time can be used on their applications. Typically PIC time would only be that time when the pilot was acting as PIC or had "signed for" the airplane. Many also allow adjustments to military time to account for the military time being logged OFF to ON instead of OUT to IN.

When it comes to PIC time the FAA wants the time when you were actively gaining experience manipulating the controls of the airplane so they define it as sole manipulator time. The airlines, however, want to know how much time you've spent in the pilot-in-command role because they're more interested in your experience as an aircraft commander than in the amount of time you've spent manipulating the controls. Each method makes sense when you consider why each definition of "PIC" is used.
 
Kritchlow said:
I'm absolutely certain you are correctly legally, but it's still mind boggling.
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Lots of folks find considerable absurdity in the FAR's on this points, but it really is the law.

The Airbus, if left alone as per my previous post, will fly itself to a landing without intervention until final pull of the throttles. Somehow, me as a new pilot in the 320 and new to part 121, can log everything as PIC until (by sop) the capt is in charge for the autoland.
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Not necessarily. That new pilot can't log PIC time unless s/he got a PIC type rating as part of the company training. An SIC type rating doesn't permit logging PIC time -- see the letter I mentioned above. I understand that most airlines today do give the PIC type rating as part of F/O training, but it's an issue to consider.

I get that it's legal, but my logbook represents when I wss actually pic and when I wasn't. To each their own, but I find it almost like cheating.
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If your pilot logbook reflects that, please don't show it to the FAA, since there are times when the PIC cannot log PIC time per 61.51, and you wouldn't like to experience what happens to people the FAA catches logging PIC time when they weren't authorized to do so.

For those herd that are considering airlines in the future, I have known pilots who have been blackballed for logging pic in those situations.
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I've never heard of a pilot being "blackballed" for filling out their logbook IAW 61.51. That said, the airline's idea of what can be claimed as PIC time on their employment application may be different from the FAA's. In that case, fill out the application IAW the airline's instructions, and if a question arises about the difference, explain it accordingly. That should make any airline hiring office happy.
 
Ron Levy said:
Lots of folks find considerable absurdity in the FAR's on this points, but it really is the law.

Not necessarily. That new pilot can't log PIC time unless s/he got a PIC type rating as part of the company training. An SIC type rating doesn't permit logging PIC time -- see the letter I mentioned above. I understand that most airlines today do give the PIC type rating as part of F/O training, but it's an issue to consider.

If your pilot logbook reflects that, please don't show it to the FAA, since there are times when the PIC cannot log PIC time per 61.51, and you wouldn't like to experience what happens to people the FAA catches logging PIC time when they weren't authorized to do so.

I've never heard of a pilot being "blackballed" for filling out their logbook IAW 61.51. That said, the airline's idea of what can be claimed as PIC time on their employment application may be different from the FAA's. In that case, fill out the application IAW the airline's instructions, and if a question arises about the difference, explain it accordingly. That should make any airline hiring office happy.
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Okay... guess I better go read 61.51. Not being able to log PIC when I am truly dispatched as PIC is a new one on me, but perhaps I'm missing something.

I should not have said blackballed for logging it that way, but rather presenting it as PIC time when interviewing. This happened to a friend who interviewed at Southwest.

And yes, I have a full PIC A320 type rating.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay... guess I better go read 61.51. Not being able to log PIC when I am truly dispatched as PIC is a new one on me, but perhaps I'm missing something.
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If you were dispatched as PIC under Part 121, you can almost certainly log PIC time, since you were almost certainly the PIC of an aircraft operating under rules requiring two pilots. However, there are a lot of other situations where someone can be acting as PIC without being authorized under 61.51(e) to log PIC time, although not in Part 121 operations. Best example is the post which started this thread -- non-current but properly rated Private Pilot A is flying a light single while PIC-qualified Private Pilot B acts as PIC but isn't manipulating the controls. Pilot A is not PIC, but logs PIC time, while Pilot B is the PIC but can't log anything (unless Pilot A is under the hood).
I should not have said blackballed for logging it that way, but rather presenting it as PIC time when interviewing. This happened to a friend who interviewed at Southwest.
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That I understand and agree with -- log it IAW 61.51, but present it to the airline IAW the airline's instructions. I have a good bit of time which the FAA says is PIC time but which Southwest would not accept (although it's moot for me, since they're not hiring any 63-y/o pilots these days).

And yes, I have a full PIC A320 type rating.
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Then as far as the FAA is concerned, any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of that 'bus, you can log it in your pilot logbook as PIC time even though you're not the PIC (and even if the controls you're manipulating are the autopilot switches/knobs, not the stick and throttles).
 
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Ron Levy said:
If you were dispatched as PIC under Part 121, you can almost certainly log PIC time, since you were almost certainly the PIC of an aircraft operating under rules requiring two pilots. However, there are a lot of other situations where someone can be acting as PIC without being authorized under 61.51(e) to log PIC time, although not in Part 121 operations.
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Before my current airline job, I flew a variety of corporate jets that required two pilots for a part 91k/135 fractional ownership company. I did that for nearly 20 years. I was PIC type rated in all of them, and dispatched as PIC.
I assume I should be okay logging PIC even though I gave the leg to my first officer...??
 
Kritchlow said:
Before my current airline job, I flew a variety of corporate jets that required two pilots for a part 91k/135 fractional ownership company. I did that for nearly 20 years. I was PIC type rated in all of them, and dispatched as PIC.
I assume I should be okay logging PIC even though I gave the leg to my first officer...??
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My reading of 61.51(e) says it's OK by the FAA. But here's the relevant reg -- what do you think?

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided--
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B ) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation--
(1) Preflight preparation;
(2) Preflight procedures;
(3) Takeoff and departure;
(4) In-flight maneuvers;
(5) Instrument procedures;
(6) Landings and approaches to landings;
(7) Normal and abnormal procedures;
(8) Emergency procedures; and
(9) Postflight procedures;
​
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds--
(1) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
(2) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
​
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.
​
(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot--
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under Sec. 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating
​
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And the one which I think applies to your situation is 61.51(e)(1)(iii), highlighted above.
 
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Kritchlow said:
I'm absolutely certain you are correctly legally, but it's still mind boggling. The Airbus, if left alone as per my previous post, will fly itself to a landing without intervention until final pull of the throttles. Somehow, me as a new pilot in the 320 and new to part 121, can log everything as PIC until (by sop) the capt is in charge for the autoland.
I get that it's legal, but my logbook represents when I wss actually pic and when I wasn't. To each their own, but I find it almost like cheating.

For those herd that are considering airlines in the future, I have known pilots who have been blackballed for logging pic in those situations.
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OK, So more in relation to most of us as pilots. Me and you go flying in a 172 with autopilot, Heading, Nav, Alt hold, Pre select.
I take off get to 3000 feet. Activate auto pilot to fly the GPS route. After 45 minutes, nothing needed to be adjusted heading and alt stayed where we wanted it, haven't needed to really adjust anything. 5 miles from the airport, you disconnect the autopilot and land.

How do we log that as PIC, and what do we log as PIC?
 
TommyG said:
OK, So more in relation to most of us as pilots. Me and you go flying in a 172 with autopilot, Heading, Nav, Alt hold, Pre select.
I take off get to 3000 feet. Activate auto pilot to fly the GPS route. After 45 minutes, nothing needed to be adjusted heading and alt stayed where we wanted it, haven't needed to really adjust anything. 5 miles from the airport, you disconnect the autopilot and land.

How do we log that as PIC, and what do we log as PIC?
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You each log the portion you were the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time, and nothing for the rest of the time (there being no indication two pilots were required by someone wearing a hood). So when did the transfer of control occur, i.e., when did you say "You have the controls" to the other pilot? That's when your PIC time stopped and the other pilot's started.
 
Ron Levy said:
You each log the portion you were the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time, and nothing for the rest of the time (there being no indication two pilots were required by someone wearing a hood). So when did the transfer of control occur, i.e., when did you say "You have the controls" to the other pilot? That's when your PIC time stopped and the other pilot's started.
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Yeah, but I think the subtext of his question is if the autopilot is engaged, who is the "sole manipulator of the controls"? I don't know why people get so wrapped around the axle about that. The autopilot IS controls.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Yeah, but I think the subtext of his question is if the autopilot is engaged, who is the "sole manipulator of the controls"? I don't know why people get so wrapped around the axle about that. The autopilot IS controls.
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Exactly. Whoever is pushing the buttons/twisting the knobs is the sole manipulator for this purpose. And only one person should be doing that at a time -- with a clear "You have the controls/I have the controls" when changing who's doing it, so there should be a clear understanding of which of the two pilots aboard is manipulating those controls at all times, with that person (and only that pilot) logging that time as PIC time under the "sole manipulator" clause (even if the other pilot may still be able to log PIC time under another clause of 61.51(e) at the same time).
 
My question is, how do you get current in a two-pilot airplane if the Pilot Flying is doing the takeoffs and landings, while the Pilot Monitoring is operating the flaps? There is no "sole" manipulator of the flight controls!:goofy:

And just to take it a step further, when I was single-pilot 135 qualified, the FAA used the reg about not allowing anyone but company-qualified pilots to operate the flight controls to explain why we couldn't allow pilot-rated passengers to talk on the radio.:confused:

Gotta love circular logic!
 
Man. I had to read that about three times to understand it.

Referencing Ron's post.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Man. I had to read that about three times to understand it.

Referencing Ron's post.
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Sorry. Problem is this issue can get so convoluted that the smallest detail changes the answer, so you have to be very careful to cover all the bases when answering a question or someone gets the wrong idea.
 
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