Pessimist view of GA

[Jay Honeck]

Mary and I were contemplating the difference in GA between when we opened our first aviation themed hotel, and now.

Back then (2002) the enthusiasm was palpable. The WWII guys, though long in the tooth, we're still with us, and there were THOUSANDS of them. Even though many were no longer flying, they still made up the backbone of every organization, and their support was behind many outstanding GA fly-ins.

They are all gone, now. I personally own the hangar of the last one I personally knew and befriended, an old Flying Tiger who passed away two years ago. I bought our hangar from his lovely widow.

With the loss of the WWII boys, some of the magic has left GA. Their unbridled enthusiasm and vast experience simply cannot be replaced.

 

[Phoenix]

Good. With the old doorstops out of the way GA can evolve into something cool and thriving.

 

[James331]

Good. With the old doorstops out of the way GA can evolve into something cool and thriving.

Seriously?

What you idea of "cool"

 

[mkosmo]

Imagine if you will when you got your drivers license to drive your family car. Not a CDL. To get this drivers license you had to pay thousands of dollars. How many would be driving today? It cost me nothing for my training to drive a car. Not one penny. Why because we all love to drive.

How about learning to ride a bike. How many would have learned if the person helping you said. You really want me to help you for free?

To fly a J3 cub, what is wrong with someone helping and not charging for this training? This was how it was done years past. But today its...so you think a cfi should train you for free?...Really.

I ask like the older gent asked..When did aviators stop helping other aviators fly for fun?

Tony

Unfortunately, it's not just aviation like that -- but the world drove aviation to it. How would a CFI be able to afford insurance if he/she instructed for free? And for many, it's just a career step these days.

 

[James331]

It all changed when people stopped flying for fun and started flying for a commute. Back in the day I am speaking, like the older gent mentioned, folks flew to get up into the air in their J3 or similar airplane for the fun of flying. Today everyone needs retracts, 100+ speeds with multi seats.

My comment about aviators helping others is for this type of person. One who flies for the fun of it. Not someone looking to fly a tin can full of people around to different places. It's about bare roots style flying. What happened to the bare roots fly for fun flying? If you do not fly for fun and you view flying as anything but fun, you are part of the problem. Flying is not about fun anymore. Its about money and a commute. Really sad, I believe anyway. For I do find flying fun, even if I am just flying above my home.

What do you do for a living?

Will you preform your trade for me for free?

 

[RotorDude]

To further counter the doom and gloom theme, I'll share something that happened to me a few months ago.
I had gone to the airport to do some minor maintenance on the plane in preparation for an upcoming Angel Flight mission, so was wearing dirty clothes and was unshaven, not expecting to meet anyone but my bird (and she doesn't care ). So I completed my work, which (fortuitously) including cleaning and vacuuming, locked up the plane and started driving back home. As I waited outside the airport's electric gate for it to close (as we are required to), I saw next to me a young man with three little kids, two boys and a girl, aged maybe 4-7, peering at the parked planes through the airport fence.
My driver side window was still down from activating the gate, so I made eye contact with the man who said "Hi", and we started talking. He explained he had brought his kids there to "look at the planes", as they often do. I asked him if he'd want me to show them a small one up close. He said "sure!", and the kids got all excited. I made a U-turn, picked them all up in my car, and drove back in to my plane. We spent the next half hour or so with the kids "flying" the controls, touching everything and examining the plane from all angles, asking a million questions, and in general being super excited. Whenever I'd show one of them something, the others would immediately ask to also see it. Dad of course was super pleased, and kept thanking me, while trying to keep the kids' enthusiasm in check (and I kept warning them about the propeller and other sharp edges all around). At the end, as I drove them all back out the gate to their car, the kids were ecstatic, saying how surprised Mom will be when she finds out.
Before we parted, Dad and I discussed the various options for him to learn to fly, and maybe buy a plane, with me trying to talk him into taking up gliding first (I had just started doing that myself at the time).
I have not seen or heard from them since, but my suspicion is that aviation will play a role in their future, at least for one of them, if not all.
Seeing the unbridled enthusiasm for airplanes and aviation in those kids (and Dad) made me realize the spirit of aviation is not dead. It might be morphing into new forms, but it's still very much alive.

 

[Dav8or]

Mary and I were contemplating the difference in GA between when we opened our first aviation themed hotel, and now.

Back then (2002) the enthusiasm was palpable. The WWII guys, though long in the tooth, we're still with us, and there were THOUSANDS of them. Even though many were no longer flying, they still made up the backbone of every organization, and their support was behind many outstanding GA fly-ins.

They are all gone, now. I personally own the hangar of the last one I personally knew and befriended, an old Flying Tiger who passed away two years ago. I bought our hangar from his lovely widow.

With the loss of the WWII boys, some of the magic has left GA. Their unbridled enthusiasm and vast experience simply cannot be replaced.

I've been flying since '98 and I've never encountered these enthusiastic WWII guys. Maybe it's just because I never spent a ton of time at country airports, or that all the WWII retirees moved to the midwest. However the few I have met at air shows have had little to zero interest in GA. For a lot of those air crews, their flying ended with the war. Many more went on flying professions and just like now, most professional pilots have little interest in GA unless that is the way they make their living.

You should count yourself lucky to have met and interacted with what sounds like some great guys. However, I have to disagree that GA is declining because of their passing. I think they have/had little to do with it.

 

[James331]

... most professional pilots have little interest in GA unless that is the way they make their living....

Out of the other pilots who I work with directly, 75% of us have our own planes for fun.

Also seems like most pits you see swerving down runways are flown by current or ex airline guys

 

[Jay Honeck]

I've been flying since '98 and I've never encountered these enthusiastic WWII guys. Maybe it's just because I never spent a ton of time at country airports, or that all the WWII retirees moved to the midwest. However the few I have met at air shows have had little to zero interest in GA. For a lot of those air crews, their flying ended with the war. Many more went on flying professions and just like now, most professional pilots have little interest in GA unless that is the way they make their living.

You should count yourself lucky to have met and interacted with what sounds like some great guys. However, I have to disagree that GA is declining because of their passing. I think they have/had little to do with it.

Simply by their sheer numbers, the WWII guys influenced and steered GA for 50 years. Even if, as you say, a percentage of them weren't interested, there were so many that did that they made up the backbone of GA. With them gone, there is a big vacuum to fill.

The next big chunk, the Vietnam pilots, are coming to the end of their flying days, and then there's a few of us late baby boomers, and then...?

The skies are going to become pretty quiet in the next 20 years...

 

[Phoenix]

Simply by their sheer numbers, the WWII guys influenced and steered GA for 50 years. Even if, as you say, a percentage of them weren't interested, there were so many that did that they made up the backbone of GA. With them gone, there is a big vacuum to fill.

The next big chunk, the Vietnam pilots, are coming to the end of their flying days, and then there's a few of us late baby boomers, and then...?

The skies are going to become pretty quiet in the next 20 years...

Bucketloads of Millenials, as many as boomers. The Millenials don't like the crappy old smelly mechanical things boomers were infatuated with. Man carrying ultralight quadcopters you can fly yourself around for 5 minutes at a charge is next. No airports, no 100LL, no certificate. Flight, fun, no practical purpose, which of course makes it the most fun. Kinda like the old hangglider boom or ultralights before the 20/20 hitjob. Or we will turn European and fly paragliders. People will still fly but not boring expensive mechanical dinosaur junk. Music changes, drugs change, and flying machines change. Always for the better.

 

[hindsight2020]

Bucketloads of Millenials, as many as boomers. The Millenials don't like the crappy old smelly mechanical things boomers were infatuated with. Man carrying ultralight quadcopters you can fly yourself around for 5 minutes at a charge is next. No airports, no 100LL, no certificate. Flight, fun, no practical purpose, which of course makes it the most fun. Kinda like the old hangglider boom or ultralights before the 20/20 hitjob. Or we will turn European and fly paragliders. People will still fly but not boring expensive mechanical dinosaur junk. Music changes, drugs change, and flying machines change. Always for the better.

Speak for yourself man. I'm a millenial, fly an old spam can and don't think going "European" and limiting the scope of my flying to hanging from a fabric canopy is either fun nor an upgrade to the flying experience. Quadcopters? What a vaporware joke.

There's a lot of things that we need to push forward in order to improve the access to piston GA, part 23 rewrite being the biggest one in the short term, but stop throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A Pitts, RV et al will always be more fun than a parachute or hanglider to me; and my arrow more social an activity since my family can attach family\holiday travel around it. So the spam can works for us. Living the European nanny state dystopia of hangliders and gokart parachutes for everyone is not incompatible with having a healthy exAB rules dominant 2\4 seater piston community, so again I ask what's with the piston antagonism? Why do you find the two segments so mutually exclusive?

 

[James331]

Speak for yourself man. I'm a millenial, fly an old spam can and don't think going "European" and limiting the scope of my flying to hanging from a fabric canopy is either fun nor an upgrade to the flying experience. Quadcopters? What a vaporware joke.

There's a lot of things that we need to push forward in order to improve the access to piston GA, part 23 rewrite being the biggest one in the short term, but stop throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A Pitts, RV et al will always be more fun than a parachute or hanglider to me; and my arrow more social an activity since my family can attach family\holiday travel around it. So the spam can works for us. Living the European nanny state dystopia of hangliders and gokart parachutes for everyone is not incompatible with having a healthy exAB rules dominant 2\4 seater piston community, so again I ask what's with the piston antagonism? Why do you find the two segments so mutually exclusive?

Exactly.

 

[Dav8or]

Simply by their sheer numbers, the WWII guys influenced and steered GA for 50 years. Even if, as you say, a percentage of them weren't interested, there were so many that did that they made up the backbone of GA. With them gone, there is a big vacuum to fill.

The next big chunk, the Vietnam pilots, are coming to the end of their flying days, and then there's a few of us late baby boomers, and then...?

The skies are going to become pretty quiet in the next 20 years...

I have to disagree with you. Why do you have this idea that ex military drive GA? I got inspired to learn to fly, went to the airport, got my ratings and never once met anybody anywhere during the process that was ex military, WWII or otherwise.

Years later after my ratings, I did meet a friend of an extended family member that was ex military and retired airline that was participating in GA due to his grandson learning to fly. Sadly he was later killed piloting a Diamond Katana with his grandson in the right seat. They were faced with an impossible challenge and he did a heroic job of piloting by all accounts. Grandson walked away with a broken arm, but this ex B-52 pilot and veteran retired 747 pilot died with trauma to the head.

That's the only guy I have yet to meet (other then at an air show) that was ex military and involved with GA, let alone WWII vet. I'm sure they're out there, but GA was around before them and has grown largely without any special help from them and will do what it will with out them as well. I see little to no correlation to the health of GA an military pilots. In fact, the first "bust" in GA was due to the lack of returning WWII vets getting involved with personal.

 

[Dav8or]

Speak for yourself man. I'm a millenial, fly an old spam can and don't think going "European" and limiting the scope of my flying to hanging from a fabric canopy is either fun nor an upgrade to the flying experience. Quadcopters? What a vaporware joke.

There's a lot of things that we need to push forward in order to improve the access to piston GA, part 23 rewrite being the biggest one in the short term, but stop throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A Pitts, RV et al will always be more fun than a parachute or hanglider to me; and my arrow more social an activity since my family can attach family\holiday travel around it. So the spam can works for us. Living the European nanny state dystopia of hangliders and gokart parachutes for everyone is not incompatible with having a healthy exAB rules dominant 2\4 seater piston community, so again I ask what's with the piston antagonism? Why do you find the two segments so mutually exclusive?

Don't mind him. He's just a chain yanking troll. He posts a lot trying to get old geezers riled up. His posts are of little substance and weak opinion. When you press him on these goofy ideas of millennial superiority, he fades fast.

 

[Maxmosbey]

I have to disagree with you. Why do you have this idea that ex military drive GA? I got inspired to learn to fly, went to the airport, got my ratings and never once met anybody anywhere during the process that was ex military, WWII or otherwise.

Years later after my ratings, I did meet a friend of an extended family member that was ex military and retired airline that was participating in GA due to his grandson learning to fly. Sadly he was later killed piloting a Diamond Katana with his grandson in the right seat. They were faced with an impossible challenge and he did a heroic job of piloting by all accounts. Grandson walked away with a broken arm, but this ex B-52 pilot and veteran retired 747 pilot died with trauma to the head.

That's the only guy I have yet to meet (other then at an air show) that was ex military and involved with GA, let alone WWII vet. I'm sure they're out there, but GA was around before them and has grown largely without any special help from them and will do what it will with out them as well. I see little to no correlation to the health of GA an military pilots. In fact, the first "bust" in GA was due to the lack of returning WWII vets getting involved with personal.

I know that my Dad and his brothers came home from WWII and all learned to fly, using the GI bill to pay for it. They ended up getting their private license, three of them became farmers, and one got killed in a car accident. As my Dad always said, life got in the way of his flying.

I don't know how the GI bill worked back then. I know that when I came back from the Viet Nam war, the GI bill would not pay for a private. I already had my private when I went in, and my A&P as well, but when I came back, the market was filled with ex-military pilots, and mechanics were a dime a dozen. So I took a different career route with my GI benefits. I have no idea where I'm going with that, so I'll just stop there.

 

[FastEddieB]

Quadcopters? What a vaporware joke.

My guess is that over time you will be proven very, very wrong.

 

[ralarcon]

Self flying "Quad copters", Google cars and "i cars" are the wave of the future, you wait and see.

Cheers

 

[Sundancer]

Long time before those devices are ubiquitous, or have widespread geographic access. Highways first for the cars, point-to-point for the flying platforms. All software sucks, and autonomus cars won't be driving you around on a country two lane or back road. . .or even on a suburban street, for a long time, if ever. Or landing in your driveway, unless you live somewhere with no street lights, poles, trees, controlled airspace, or the local gov't doesn't ban them after the first couple fatals. . .

 

[Phoenix]

For the record I'm a Gen Xer. Stick your heads in your dirty Lycomings if you must, but boomers and few outliers are the only ones that care about dinosaur engine powered junk. Go check youtube for early hangglider stuff, at the time sailplane pilots were flying as long as they wanted and great distances the hangglider guys were barely making it to the bottom of the hill. Your ideas of needing flying performance are false. Flight, cool flight, is what drives people(cool people) dorks come along later and trod the proven path. Human carrying homemade quadcopters(with very limited flight time) are the next recreational flying thing. And even a figurine monkey knows GA doesn't work for travel, the Millenials are smart enough to realize you are buying a fake dream. Same as all the blue water capable sailboats collecting seagull poop at the marina. Better to do something real, even if less grand then own something expensive for a daydream use that will never happen.
http://www.npr.org/2013/08/21/209579037/why-millennials-are-ditching-cars-and-redefining-ownership
Old tyme GA is dying because old tyme GA is boring, expensive and has very limited utility.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I have to disagree with you. Why do you have this idea that ex military drive GA?

Why? Because it was true for five decades.

Those WWII guys were EVERYWHERE in GA when I learned to fly 22 years ago. They were already in their 70s, by then, but they ran our EAA chapter, the Reno Air Races, and were flying everything from Cubs to King Airs.

In 1940 there were just 70,000 pilots in the US. By 1946, there were 400,000. 330,000 guys learned to fly in WWII, representing an enormous percentage of our GA pilots for 50 years.

They are all gone, now. I miss those old boys.

 

[Phoenix]

If the WWII guys drove GA, it seems to indicate GA only thrives if the gov't picks up the tab for training. How many of those guys would have been GA pilots without AF or GI bill flight training?

 

[Jay Honeck]

If the WWII guys drove GA, it seems to indicate GA only thrives if the gov't picks up the tab for training. How many of those guys would have been GA pilots without AF or GI bill flight training?

Well, I wouldn't say it "only" thrives if training is free -- but it sure didn't hurt. I certainly wouldn't have had to wait till I was 35 before learning to fly if flight training had been subsidized by The Man. lol

I'm afraid we shall never again see the skies full of little airplanes like we did in the 70s, 80s and 90s. The numbers just aren't there. You can't beat demographics...

 

[ralarcon]

Long time before those devices are ubiquitous, or have widespread geographic access. Highways first for the cars, point-to-point for the flying platforms. All software sucks, and autonomus cars won't be driving you around on a country two lane or back road. . .or even on a suburban street, for a long time, if ever. Or landing in your driveway, unless you live somewhere with no street lights, poles, trees, controlled airspace, or the local gov't doesn't ban them after the first couple fatals. . .

When these autonomous vehicles become safer , statistically, than pilots or drivers watch out.

Cheers

 

[denverpilot]

For the record I'm a Gen Xer. Stick your heads in your dirty Lycomings if you must, but boomers and few outliers are the only ones that care about dinosaur engine powered junk. Go check youtube for early hangglider stuff, at the time sailplane pilots were flying as long as they wanted and great distances the hangglider guys were barely making it to the bottom of the hill. Your ideas of needing flying performance are false. Flight, cool flight, is what drives people(cool people) dorks come along later and trod the proven path. Human carrying homemade quadcopters(with very limited flight time) are the next recreational flying thing. And even a figurine monkey knows GA doesn't work for travel, the Millenials are smart enough to realize you are buying a fake dream. Same as all the blue water capable sailboats collecting seagull poop at the marina. Better to do something real, even if less grand then own something expensive for a daydream use that will never happen.

http://www.npr.org/2013/08/21/209579037/why-millennials-are-ditching-cars-and-redefining-ownership

Old tyme GA is dying because old tyme GA is boring, expensive and has very limited utility.

Another GenX here.

(Edit: Deleted long rant about my peers in debt up to their eyeballs. Most of GenX simply doesn't get it. My full sized 230 HP airplane in a co-ownership is quite affordable with zero debt. Zero debt. In my 40s. You have to get deadly serious about needs vs wants and what makes the most fun/dollar for you and KILL ALL DEBT if you want to have awesome things. My peers at dinner parties babble about the latest crap they bought on credit. They'll never figure it out.)

 

[FlightofTwo]

For the record I'm a Gen Xer. Stick your heads in your dirty Lycomings if you must, but boomers and few outliers are the only ones that care about dinosaur engine powered junk. Go check youtube for early hangglider stuff, at the time sailplane pilots were flying as long as they wanted and great distances the hangglider guys were barely making it to the bottom of the hill. Your ideas of needing flying performance are false. Flight, cool flight, is what drives people(cool people) dorks come along later and trod the proven path. Human carrying homemade quadcopters(with very limited flight time) are the next recreational flying thing. And even a figurine monkey knows GA doesn't work for travel, the Millenials are smart enough to realize you are buying a fake dream. Same as all the blue water capable sailboats collecting seagull poop at the marina. Better to do something real, even if less grand then own something expensive for a daydream use that will never happen.
http://www.npr.org/2013/08/21/209579037/why-millennials-are-ditching-cars-and-redefining-ownership
Old tyme GA is dying because old tyme GA is boring, expensive and has very limited utility.

Hey, Gen X here too, been flying for 26 years, love the dirty old Lycomings, and Continentals, and radials, and have successfully used GA for travel most of my adult life. Getting ready to go to Florida this weekend. Have a little girl now who is so used to using GA for travel that she once asked "Why don't we ever get to DRIVE anywhere?" and has stated that she'll get her Private and Instrument simply because she likes to go places. Pointless hanging around in one spot in tiny little copter things would get really old really fast. Actually going somewhere, doing something, aerobatics, trips, missions, I don't want to play on simulators or sit on the ground and move one around, or just go up and come back down a few minutes later. Others might and can, and that's fine, but I know plenty of Gen Xers too, and your opinion isn't the only one. You're welcome to do what you want, of course, but you can't claim that most people don't care about piston engines or that GA can't be used for travel, etc.

 

[txflyer]

My pilot's license in 1975 cost about $600 total I think ... for roughly 40 hours in a Piper 140 with maybe 10-15 hours of that dual. I don't remember exactly without pulling logs, but at 16 years old I was a quick study.

I'm no actuary, so I don't know how to ratio 1975 dollars to 2015 dollars but I'll bet it's way out of whack what I paid as opposed to what you pay now.

I'd have to put expense at the top of the list what's holding back GA. Always has in a way.

 

[Sundancer]

I'm a pilot. If wanted to be a passenger, I'd buy a ticket. Don't give a rat's azz if it isn't as safe. I do travel via GA on ocasion. If too far, or time constrained, I go commercial.

But as fun flying, an autonomous human carrying quad-copter is lame. Might as well be in an elevator or a subway car. Or riding a bus. Like going to Everest and paying someone to carry you up the summit.

And requiring about as much skill as peeling a banana.

 

[EvilEagle]

For the record I'm a Gen Xer. .....And even a figurine monkey knows GA doesn't work for travel, the Millenials are smart enough to realize you are buying a fake dream. ...Old tyme GA is dying because old tyme GA is boring, expensive and has very limited utility.

Gen Xer here too.

Shhh! Don't tell my Bonanza that it doesn't work for travel! It takes me from New Orleans to the Bahamas twice a year, to my parents place in TN 4-5 times a year, to the rockies for skiing 1-2 times a year, to my in-laws in northern NY at least once a year, etc, etc. If that doesn't work for travel, I'm not sure what does.

Old time GA is not easy, unfortunately less and less people are up for a challenge these days. It's far from limited utility though.

 

[Everskyward]

I'm a boomer but I don't remember knowing many WWII vets who were pilots. Vietnam vets, yes...

 

[txflyer]

Yeah ... I want to see me strapping poochie and the grandkids in a quadcopter.

 

[denverpilot]

After I edited and removed my fiscal rant, I forgot to finish pointing out that I don't agree at all about small aircraft being "the future" for me... heck, I want to go faster... and I really like 230 HP firing off with the starter... and I don't think of the O-470 as "dinosaur tech"... I see it as a very capable big bore low-compression beast that almost always gives one really reasonable hints that it's time to rebuild it... it does what it does pretty darn well... it's no IO-550 with a Turbo, but if it was, it'd be a LOT more persnickety about how it's handled... as it sits, it doesn't care if I blast around WOT all day long, and it honestly isn't even really working that hard...

 

[Dav8or]

the Millenials are smart enough to realize you are buying a fake dream.

The Millenials are the death of our country as we have known it. They are the final piece required for Huxley's 1984 to come true. A whole generation yearning to embrace socialism and eventually communism with open arms. So be it. Not much I can do about it. Thanks helicopter moms of America! (not mean any moms out there that actually fly helicopters, but rather the overbearing, controlling moms so common today ) You have created the ultimate dependents.

 

[Phoenix]

Dude everything we have, you boomtards made. If the Millenials actually voted boomtards and their policies would be sailing icebergs.

 

[FastEddieB]

I'm no actuary, so I don't know how to ratio 1975 dollars to 2015 dollars but I'll bet it's way out of whack what I paid as opposed to what you pay now.

$2,742.68

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$600 1975 dollars

Love WolframAlpha.

 

[Dav8or]

Why? Because it was true for five decades.

Those WWII guys were EVERYWHERE in GA when I learned to fly 22 years ago. They were already in their 70s, by then, but they ran our EAA chapter, the Reno Air Races, and were flying everything from Cubs to King Airs.

In 1940 there were just 70,000 pilots in the US. By 1946, there were 400,000. 330,000 guys learned to fly in WWII, representing an enormous percentage of our GA pilots for 50 years.

They are all gone, now. I miss those old boys.

Hmmm... the growth of GA in those days couldn't have anything to do with the equipment and technology could it??

GA before WWII

GA after WWII

This airplane brought more pilots to GA...

...then this...

...or this...

...or even this.

 

[Dav8or]

They'll never figure it out.)

No, they've figured it out. They sadly believe that they will just never retire and that they will always be somehow employable.

 

[Sundancer]

I wish we could hire one that was IT literate - great with social media, but useless with back office tools, and critical reading and analysis, too.

Some of the ones that went to community college first have some skills; the rest require "remedial" Excel, Access, Word, etc. . .

maybe one of 'em will figure out the next-great-thing though, like developing software that doesn't suck. . .

 

[paflyer]

My pilot's license in 1975 cost about $600 total I think ... for roughly 40 hours in a Piper 140 with maybe 10-15 hours of that dual. I don't remember exactly without pulling logs, but at 16 years old I was a quick study.

I'm no actuary, so I don't know how to ratio 1975 dollars to 2015 dollars but I'll bet it's way out of whack what I paid as opposed to what you pay now.

I'd have to put expense at the top of the list what's holding back GA. Always has in a way.

It's the lack of instant gratification.

 

[paflyer]

The Millenials are the death of our country as we have known it. They are the final piece required for Huxley's 1984 to come true. A whole generation yearning to embrace socialism and eventually communism with open arms. So be it. Not much I can do about it. Thanks helicopter moms of America! (not mean any moms out there that actually fly helicopters, but rather the overbearing, controlling moms so common today ) You have created the ultimate dependents.

Absolutely.

 

[paflyer]

Don't mind him. He's just a chain yanking troll. He posts a lot trying to get old geezers riled up. His posts are of little substance and weak opinion. When you press him on these goofy ideas of millennial superiority, he fades fast.

AKA "Climbnsink" who I think was banned.