Person jumps from aircraft landing at RDU

dmspilot said:
The coroner's report has little value in settling the debate.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001318.htm
The determination of suicide requires that the death be established as both self-inflicted and intentional. For most certifiers, establishing intentionality is the most difficult criterion. A coroner or medical examiner who suspects suicide may be reluctant to impose social stigma, guilt, and loss of insurance benefits on the victim's family. Since many certifiers lack explicit criteria for assessing suicidal intent, they might search for a narrower range of evidence concerning intent (10). Thus, a certifier might conclude that a death was not a suicide because information proving intent was not collected. However, absence of evidence of intent is not evidence of absence of intent. Some certifiers require a suicide note to certify a death as suicide.
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Those who like to argue just to argue won't be satisfied with anything. What more do you expect to find out that requires debating?
 
squincher said:
Those who like to argue just to argue won't be satisfied with anything. What more do you expect to find out that requires debating?
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I don't expect to find out anything. I already stated that we'll probably never know what actually happened.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Yeah, decades ago a cop friend told me that "gun cleaning accident" was code for suicide, so that families could collect insurance.
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My neighbor shot himself when I was a kid, we were all told "gun cleaning accident", we learned the truth years later.
 
dmspilot said:
The coroner's report has little value in settling the debate.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001318.htm
The determination of suicide requires that the death be established as both self-inflicted and intentional. For most certifiers, establishing intentionality is the most difficult criterion. A coroner or medical examiner who suspects suicide may be reluctant to impose social stigma, guilt, and loss of insurance benefits on the victim's family. Since many certifiers lack explicit criteria for assessing suicidal intent, they might search for a narrower range of evidence concerning intent (10). Thus, a certifier might conclude that a death was not a suicide because information proving intent was not collected. However, absence of evidence of intent is not evidence of absence of intent. Some certifiers require a suicide note to certify a death as suicide.
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Sigh, again, people like talking out their rear ends...So now that google made you an expert in coroner's reports, did you look up establishment of accidental death? How about undetermined?
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Yeah, decades ago a cop friend told me that "gun cleaning accident" was code for suicide, so that families could collect insurance.
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Such things were not unheard of years ago but it was done to spare the family, not to defraud insurance companies. Falsifying reports for any reason hasn't been kosher for some time now, and I guarantee insurance investigators would be all over such a case these days. The Coroner in this case can back up his determination, otherwise he would have listed it as undetermined and laid out the conflicting information that prevented a conclusive determination. It's not like there are any ramifications when they can't figure it out.
 
Country Flier said:
Sigh, again, people like talking out their rear ends...So now that google made you an expert in coroner's reports, did you look up establishment of accidental death? How about undetermined?
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No one needs to be an expert in coroner's reports, just deductive reasoning.
 
The NTSB report is out.
 

Attachments

  • Report_ERA22LA348_105636_12_15_2023-10_21_52-AM (1).pdf
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Looks like we'll never really know.

I'll say what I said before. The deck of a CASA in slow cruise is sloped down towards the rear, or at least it felt that way to me. First time I parachuted from one, it was really weird standing at the hinge, and I had to grab the side of the interior. NEVER felt that way in a C130 or CH47. As I recall, the aircraft had a webbing gate to keep the jumpers safe during the climbout. I can absolutely see someone going to the ramp to barf and falling out.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Looks like we'll never really know….
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The tox report provides some context to the SICs physiological and physiological state from sources independent of the PIC validating likelihood of windshear and turbulence and a similarly disproportionate psychological response over a lost fuel card.

Back to the tox report

The postaccident toxicological finding of mitragynine in the SIC’s liver tissue and urine indicated that he had used a kratom product, which had the potential to cause impairment. Notably, anxiety control was a common motivation for kratom use, and anxiety itself may predispose people to heightened physiological responses to stress, which sometimes manifest with nausea, dizziness, or feeling hot or smothered. Although it is possible that effects of kratom may have contributed to nausea or to some dizziness or perceptual impairment that may have increased his risk of falling, there is insufficient evidence to determine whether effects of the SIC’s kratom use contributed to the accident
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Don’t know if this article is related to the above investigation, but a recent FAS Bulletin advises AMEs to recommend pilots not use kratom or Kava Kava due potentially negative impacts on anxiety.

 
The other pilot's statement:

He was opening up the ramp and said he needed more air. I did not find this overly alarming as this is a common practice in a hot environment and given our situation. He then looked at me and said "I am sorry Mike" disconnected his seat belt dropped his head set and ran out the back of the airplane in a head first dive.​

In a follow up interview he was asked some additional questions:

Q: Could he have been running to the back due to his nausea?​
A: No. He did a Superman dive out the back of the airplane.​
​
Q: Is there anything to hold on to, if you wanted to lean out to throw up?​
A: There is a bar across the back of the aircraft about 6 ft high that you could hold on to, and the side has a bar to​
hold on to as well.​
​
Q: Could Mr. Crooks have been trying to grab that bar when he fell out?​
A: No.​
​
Q: Were you looking back at Mr. Crooks at all times when he left the cockpit?​
A: Correct​
 
dmspilot said:
In a follow up interview he was asked some additional questions:

Q: Could he have been running to the back due to his nausea?​
A: No. He did a Superman dive out the back of the airplane​
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Oh my, I thought you made that up until I read the docket.
 
Poor both of them. The suicidal SIC, and his family, of course.
But that PIC, too.
 
This spring he used his new regular paycheck to purchase a reliably unreliable 1978 Fiat convertible. He spent many hours and more than a few dollars trying to keep the car roadworthy while avoiding tetanus.
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I usually don't make jokes when a death is involved, but this is just funny.
 
"Several cases of psychosis resulting from use of kratom have been reported, where individuals addicted to kratom exhibited psychotic symptoms, including hallucinations, delusion, and confusion" (DEA).
 
dmspilot said:
The other pilot's statement:

He was opening up the ramp and said he needed more air. I did not find this overly alarming as this is a common practice in a hot environment and given our situation. He then looked at me and said "I am sorry Mike" disconnected his seat belt dropped his head set and ran out the back of the airplane in a head first dive.​

In a follow up interview he was asked some additional questions:

Q: Could he have been running to the back due to his nausea?​
A: No. He did a Superman dive out the back of the airplane.​
​
Q: Is there anything to hold on to, if you wanted to lean out to throw up?​
A: There is a bar across the back of the aircraft about 6 ft high that you could hold on to, and the side has a bar to​
hold on to as well.​
​
Q: Could Mr. Crooks have been trying to grab that bar when he fell out?​
A: No.​
​
Q: Were you looking back at Mr. Crooks at all times when he left the cockpit?​
A: Correct​
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Who was flying the aircraft?
 
TCABM said:
Otto
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I think the PIC said there was no autopilot. It sounded like the progression from out of the seat to out the ramp didn't take very long, and many of us are capable of maintaining control while looking over our shoulder for a brief period of time. Some of us might have plenty of experience doing just that but are understandably reluctant to admit it. :cool:

Nauga,
and pipper burns
 
nauga said:
I think the PIC said there was no autopilot. …
Nauga,
and pipper burns
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Yeah, I was being facetious.

Admittedly, I was skeptical at the beginning, but given the entire docket, once the SIC unbuckled, I agree this thing ended in a matter of seconds.
 
nauga said:
I think the PIC said there was no autopilot. It sounded like the progression from out of the seat to out the ramp didn't take very long, and many of us are capable of maintaining control while looking over our shoulder for a brief period of time. Some of us might have plenty of experience doing just that but are understandably reluctant to admit it. :cool:

Nauga,
and pipper burns
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Alternate theory:
1. SIC unbuckles and heads for ramp to barf.
2. PIC looks over shoulder to watch and accidentally pulls on yoke.
3. "Ummm yeah, he dove right out the back like Superman ..."
 
Ed Haywood said:
Alternate theory:
1. SIC unbuckles and heads for ramp to barf.
2. PIC looks over shoulder to watch and accidentally pulls on yoke.
3. "Ummm yeah, he dove right out the back like Superman ..."
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Which is why I was skeptical at first (and to a degree still am)…dead men tell no tales.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Alternate theory:
1. SIC unbuckles and heads for ramp to barf.
2. PIC looks over shoulder to watch and accidentally pulls on yoke.
3. "Ummm yeah, he dove right out the back like Superman ..."
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If we're making stuff up out of whole cloth then I'm gonna go with hypnotism.
Or maybe something to do with magnets.

ETA: However,,,,I was not commenting on the validity of the interview response, I was addressing the question of "who was flying" when or if the events unfolded as described.

Nauga,
and Violent J
 
I don't think this one is any worse that one guy being really depressed. And that's not great. The tox report is enough collaboration for me. It's sad, but what's also sad is that it isn't all that uncommon as a percentage of the population.
 
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