Person jumps from aircraft landing at RDU

I suppose even the PIC telling the guy to get his head on straight and help him get the plane down would sound pretty rough after a landing that hard.
 
Capngrog said:
I wonder what the PIC was really saying to the co-pilot after the right MLG departed the airplane. Was it along the lines of: "Gee, don't worry, it could happen to anybody" or more like "Why you stupid, ham-fisted shot, you broke a perfectly good airplane, and I and my bosses will see that you never work in aviation again"? Maybe something in between, or perhaps just an icy silence. My guess is that we'll never know.
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If bad CRM was a legitimate cause for suicide, there’d be a lot more dead pilots. That type of behavior from the PIC may have contributed, but it wouldn’t be a cause.
 
MauleSkinner said:
If bad CRM was a legitimate cause for suicide, there’d be a lot more dead pilots. That type of behavior from the PIC may have contributed, but it wouldn’t be a cause.
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Yeah. Fragile people are fragile I guess. I’ve been yelled at before and my only negative reaction was a desire to kick someone’s butt. Notice I said desire because I didn’t do anything. Part of being a mentally stable professional is being able to exercise self control and stay calm.

I don’t really care what the guy in the left seat said or how he said it. No rational person would expect the dude to level the ramp and leave. If that’s what the kid did it’s all on him.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
..I don’t really care what the guy in the left seat said or how he said it. No rational person would expect the dude to level the ramp and leave. If that’s what the kid did it’s all on him.
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I don’t disagree and I understand with limited public information there’s a lot of stuff that doesn’t make sense.

Things like if the SIC opened the co-pilot window because he was feeling sick, who shut it and when because that window was closed in the post landing photos I’ve seen.

IIRC you flew the C212 before; is that something that could be done from the left sear if there was nobody in the right seat?
 
TCABM said:
Things like if the SIC opened the co-pilot window because he was feeling sick, who shut it and when because that window was closed in the post landing photos I’ve seen.
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Maybe the copilot shut it before going to the back.
 
If you never been in a stress situation where someone looses it, it very much exists…not a simple panic attack or what ever you want to call it…hard to say how people will react. Used to give a talk about no one is on fire and no one is dying can be fixed. Combat crew selection we alway took this into consideration…the most experienced technically, but unproven, had to be vetted…23 years old…so sad at so many levels. Doubt it’s anything more than he flipped…
 
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TCABM said:
Yep. That’s why I said it’s a question.
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It would not be easy to close the copilots window from the left seat. I could easily reach the door controls from the left seat but I have monkey arms. Plus I’m working through a seventeen year old hazy memory enhanced by lots of scotch and many airplanes between me and the casa. Also I was not typed in the plane. I had a couple training flights in the left seat but I never finished because I was the part time guy. I mostly flew the twotter and the king air and the occasional flight in the right seat of the casa.
 
Warlock said:
If you never been in a stress situation where someone looses, it it very much exists…not a simple panic attack or what ever you want to call it…hard to say how people will react. Used to give a talk about no one is on fire and no one is dying can be fixed. Combat crew selection we alway took this into consideration…the most experienced technically, but unproven, had to be vetted…23 years old…so sad at so many levels. Doubt it’s anything more than he flipped…
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I agree. This kid failed the test regardless of his intentions.
 
Piperonca said:
I still think he went back to throw up and even bungled that.
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It does seem the most likely, with so many ways it could have happened. He may have slipped. There may have been turbulence. He may have leaned too far into the wind trying to keep the puke off the ramp. He may have lost his balance while retching. Perhaps the wind took his sunglasses off his head and he reached too far to grab them. Or a remaining piece of the landing gear came off and bopped him in the head while he was leaning out and puking. Or, yes, maybe he jumped.
 
Dana said:
It does seem the most likely, with so many ways it could have happened. He may have slipped. There may have been turbulence. He may have leaned too far into the wind trying to keep the puke off the ramp. He may have lost his balance while retching. Perhaps the wind took his sunglasses off his head and he reached too far to grab them. Or a remaining piece of the landing gear came off and bopped him in the head while he was leaning out and puking. Or, yes, maybe he jumped.
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From the NTSB Prelim "The PIC stated that the SIC then got up from his seat, removed his headset, apologized, and departed the airplane via the aft ramp door.".

I'm sorry but with all the info so far it seems HIGHLY likely almost certain this was suicide due to the co-pilot being distraught about the hard landing. Plus it also stated in the NTSB prelim that the SIC was "visibly upset about the hard landing"... c'mon they are totally pointing at this like it's suicide... maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems pretty obvious to me what happened (assuming the surviving pilot's account is correct).
 
At the risk of sounding like a boomer, I'm wondering if this is going to be a more common response to failures in younger people. By that I mean that the US has become a "everybody gets a trophy" and "don't hurt anyones feelings" kind of place. The anti-bullying movement (while initially well intended) has become to the point of my kid's (high schooler but taking college classes at the state college) class being told in orientation that "if your social media posts offends a classmate you will be put on probation at a minimum or suspended". I heard it with my own two ears.

So, what I'm getting at is that as a society we're insulating kids to not have to deal with failure or hurt feelings at a young age. The problem here is that we're also not providing them the tools or behaviors to deal with big blows that do inevitably come with life. So, when they do face the big blows, you now have a full grown adult with full access to everything needed to turn a bad situation into a worse situation and without the stabilizing effect of previous experiences to reference for how to handle it. Kinda like we know how to handle stalls in our aircraft because of training and experience, but if it is no longer taught, could we really fault the pilot who responds to a stall by continuing to pull back on the yoke until they become a smoking hole in the ground?

Let's face it, forcibly removing the landing gear during landing is a BIG deal, no matter how nice the PIC was. So, without a background of what consequences he can expect or how do deal with such a setback in life, it is possible he saw this as a mountain too big to climb and he might as well exit stage right.
 
We will never know for sure what happened. I think it is unfair to put this on the PIC with the info we do have.
 
Mutiger said:
We will never know for sure what happened. I think it is unfair to put this on the PIC with the info we do have.
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Except all the info we have is from the PIC.

I’m going to keep an open mind, I’m not ready to condemn the SIC either.

This really needs to be investigated as a possible murder, not one of NTSB paper whipped investigations they do when body count is low.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
This really needs to be investigated as a possible murder...
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If it was murder, what evidence might exist to prove it? The PIC was the only witness, how would you impeach his testimony?

Even if you found out he had a grudge or something against the SIC, that doesn't prove murder.

Ron Wanttaja
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Except all the info we have is from the PIC.

I’m going to keep an open mind, I’m not ready to condemn the SIC either.

This really needs to be investigated as a possible murder, not one of NTSB paper whipped investigations they do when body count is low.
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That’s just dumb
 
I suppose "if" there was CVR audio, and "if" there was nefarious intent to encourage suicide proven from this hypothetical audio, then the maximum charge would be involuntary manslaughter, not murder. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer but am old enough to remember Perry Mason.
 
Piperonca said:
I suppose "if" there was CVR audio, and "if" there was nefarious intent to encourage suicide proven from this hypothetical audio, then the maximum charge would be involuntary manslaughter, not murder. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer but am old enough to remember Perry Mason.
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PIC told the SIC to “go jump in a lake”? Ties it all together in a nice, neat package.:rolleyes:
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Except all the info we have is from the PIC.

I’m going to keep an open mind, I’m not ready to condemn the SIC either.

This really needs to be investigated as a possible murder, not one of NTSB paper whipped investigations they do when body count is low.
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You should probably stop watching Dateline.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Except all the info we have is from the PIC.

I’m going to keep an open mind, I’m not ready to condemn the SIC either.

This really needs to be investigated as a possible murder, not one of NTSB paper whipped investigations they do when body count is low.
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I’d like to assume the local LE agency with jurisdiction and not the NTSB would be investigating the death if foul play was suspected. Hard evidence is going to be hard to come by, I suspect. If anything, it would probably come down to poking at holes in the PICs version of events until he admitted wrong doing.

Or there could be a text to mom/dad on the SICs phone that’s not been shared with the media that could inform the investigation.

Whole lot of questions with very few answers available to the public.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
There’s the key, I would not assume it is and would investigate the surviving pilot.
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Exactly how would you "investigate" the pilot? Waterboard him?

The NTSB preliminary report contains his observations of the decedent's actions. Why that account is suspect escapes me. Some of the postulations by posters about the PIC's behavior and actions are ridiculous to the point of absurdity. Several assert the pilot was somehow involved in the death, even committing murder, which I find completely fanciful.
 
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3393RP said:
Exactly how would you "investigate" the pilot? Waterboard him?

The NTSB preliminary report contains his observations of the decedent's actions. Why that account is suspect escapes me. Some of the postulations by posters about the SIC's behavior and actions are ridiculous to the point of absurdity. Several assert the pilot was somehow involved in the death, even committing murder, which I find completely fanciful.
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yeah, imagine that.....someone saying they didn't do something when in fact they did, crazy absurd.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Much easier to believe somebody is lying than telling the truth.
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I don’t know what that means but basically if the outcome (someone jumping out of a plane for no good reason) is SO whacked out, then it’s the American way to be guilty until proven innocent. And this scenario is effing whacky.
 
eman1200 said:
I don’t know what that means but basically if the outcome (someone jumping out of a plane for no good reason) is SO whacked out, then it’s the American way to be guilty until proven innocent. And this scenario is effing whacky.
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Whacky or not, any theory other than what the PIC said happens automatically assumes he’s lying. A lot of people seem to be defaulting to that assumption.

We don’t have further proof one way or the other (it may exist), but the choice we have is between an honest PIC with a disturbed SIC or a lying PIC and a bumbling/gullible SIC.
 
3393RP said:
Exactly how would you "investigate" the pilot? Waterboard him?

The NTSB preliminary report contains his observations of the decedent's actions. Why that account is suspect escapes me. Some of the postulations by posters about the SIC's behavior and actions are ridiculous to the point of absurdity. Several assert the pilot was somehow involved in the death, even committing murder, which I find completely fanciful.
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I never asserted, I just said it should be investigated.

It seems odd that a SIC would commit suicide after a bad landing unless there was a history of depression or emotional issues .

I would investigate by talking to friends and family if he was suicidal or depressed lately. I would check all his social media and texts. I would interview all the other employees especially his boss. Did he have other performance issues at work, etc? Previous employers as well. Obviously do drug testing of the remains. I would check the PICs social media and texts as well.

Why you take PICs account of what happened as gospel and shouldn’t be verified escapes me. Investigate! PIC account may be accurate. Maybe we’ll find contributing factors, and can try to prevent this from happening. If I was the family I would want to know more.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Why you take PICs account of what happened as gospel and shouldn’t be verified escapes me. Investigate!
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How?!

Without video, or at least audio, of what transpired, how will you verify the pilot’s account?

Looking at social media, talking to the jumper’s family and friends, etc., etc., will not prove or disprove the pilot’s account. It might help you understand whether the SIC was prone to self-destruction but it will not prove anything about what the pilot said or did.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
I never asserted, I just said it should be investigated.

It seems odd that a SIC would commit suicide after a bad landing unless there was a history of depression or emotional issues .

I would investigate by talking to friends and family if he was suicidal or depressed lately. I would check all his social media and texts. I would interview all the other employees especially his boss. Did he have other performance issues at work, etc? Previous employers as well. Obviously do drug testing of the remains. I would check the PICs social media and texts as well.

Why you take PICs account of what happened as gospel and shouldn’t be verified escapes me. Investigate! PIC account may be accurate. Maybe we’ll find contributing factors, and can try to prevent this from happening. If I was the family I would want to know more.
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Why a rando on the internet would need to inject themselves publicly into a highly Google search indexed site where real people, families, co-workers, and children are seeing a named individual accused of being a potential liar or killer is beyond me.

None of these people want to be in the public eye.



“I would investigate by talking to friends and family if he was suicidal or depressed lately. I would check all his social media and texts. I would interview all the other employees especially his boss. Did he have other performance issues at work, etc? Previous employers as well. Obviously do drug testing of the remains. I would check the PICs social media and texts as well. ”
​
Really? Don’t you think either family isn’t going through enough right now?

I just don’t get it.
 
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ElPaso Pilot said:
Really? Don’t you think either family isn’t going through enough right now?

I just don’t get it.
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So we shouldn’t investigate because it might hurt someone’s feelings?

I’ve never heard of a family who had a child die that didn’t want to understand how it could happen (not that it will help with the tremendous grief).

But I agree, I just don’t get it.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Why a rando on the internet would need to inject themselves publicly into a highly Google search indexed site where real people, families, co-workers, and children are seeing a named individual accused of being a potential liar or killer is beyond me.

None of these people want to be in the public eye.



“I would investigate by talking to friends and family if he was suicidal or depressed lately. I would check all his social media and texts. I would interview all the other employees especially his boss. Did he have other performance issues at work, etc? Previous employers as well. Obviously do drug testing of the remains. I would check the PICs social media and texts as well. ”
​
Really? Don’t you think either family isn’t going through enough right now?

I just don’t get it.
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You think the authorities don’t talk to family when there is an unusual death involved? Welcome to the real world. If I were the family I’d be livid if they weren’t asking questions about this unbelievable event.
 
I didn’t hear anyone say don’t investigate. And I’m sure the right folks are.

Immortalizing Agatha Christie cosplay theories publicly is something else.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
So we shouldn’t investigate because it might hurt someone’s feelings?

I’ve never heard of a family who had a child die that didn’t want to understand how it could happen (not that it will help with the tremendous grief).

But I agree, I just don’t get it.
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Can you be clear about what you are arguing about? You said there should be a murder investigation. No one said there shouldn't be any investigation at all.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Whacky or not, any theory other than what the PIC said happens automatically assumes he’s lying. A lot of people seem to be defaulting to that assumption.
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His report is probably not accurate. Everybody lies. It's likely not even intentional. But memory doesn't work the way we tend to think it does, and witness reports are terribly unreliable. I am sure the NTSB will investigate the Phidias evidence and report on anything that isn't consistent with the witness accounts.
 
dmspilot said:
Can you be clear about what you are arguing about? You said there should be a murder investigation. No one said there shouldn't be any investigation at all.
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You don’t assume anything until you can rule it out from the evidence and you certainly don’t rule it out. The investigation should include the possibility of murder.
There seems to be many who just want to take the PICs word for it. I agree it’s unlikely but so is a pilot jumping out of an airplane because he made a bad landing. I’m not saying he’s lying, I’m saying he could be.
Investigations that rule out possibilities are not investigations, they just pomp and circumstance.

No one said there shouldn’t an investigation?…
“Exactly how would you "investigate" the pilot? Waterboard him?”
“You should probably stop watching Dateline.”
“That’s just dumb”
“We will never know for sure what happened. I think it is unfair to put this on the PIC with the info we do have.”
 
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MooneyDriver78 said:
You don’t assume anything until you can rule it out from the evidence and you certainly don’t rule it out. The investigation should include the possibility of murder.
There seems to be many who just want to take the PICs word for it. I agree it’s unlikely but so is a pilot jumping out of an airplane because he made a bad landing. I’m not saying he’s lying, I’m saying he could be.
Investigations that rule out possibilities are not investigations, they just pomp and circumstance.

No one said there shouldn’t an investigation?…
“Exactly how would you "investigate" the pilot? Waterboard him?”
“You should probably stop watching Dateline.”
“That’s just dumb”
“We will never know for sure what happened. I think it is unfair to put this on the PIC with the info we do have.”
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An "Investigation" looks into what happened. A "Murder Investigation" assumes death ruled a murder. Its that step ahead that is the problem.
 
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Lindberg said:
His report is probably not accurate. Everybody lies. It's likely not even intentional. But memory doesn't work the way we tend to think it does, and witness reports are terribly unreliable. I am sure the NTSB will investigate the Phidias evidence and report on anything that isn't consistent with the witness accounts.
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If the report is made within 30 seconds of the event, it’s not “memory”, it’s “observation”.

yes, observation is often flawed, too, but what the PIC said to ATC seems a lot more consistent with a suicide than a plan to make it look like something happened that didn’t.
 
There are two issues at hand.
1) The damaged aircraft which is being investigated by the NTSB
2) The death of the young SIC investigated by LE

Based upon experience, I can tell you that law enforcement is going to be investigating the death. Something this out of the ordinary may likely involve state or even federal resources. Death investigations are started with the premise of homicide, then suicide, then accidental. Based upon the radio transmission of the SIC jumping out of the aircraft, I would have expected LE to be there to interview the pilot upon landing regarding this incident. For the ones who doubt the radio transmission, the fact that the SIC was no longer on the plane, when he should have been, would quickly have been discovered and that would certainly lead to the local LE asking questions of the PIC.

Let's look at a couple of agreed upon facts.
1) The SIC is dead
2) The SIC died as a result of a sudden stop at the end of his fall from the aircraft
3) Turbulence was reported at the time
4) The PIC sounded calm and reasonably collected on the radio transmission
5) The PIC was not arrested after arrival at RDU or until this present time

The fact that the PIC was not arrested indicates to me that there were no immediate signs of a struggle between the pilots. You would be looking for blood in the aircraft, torn clothing, cuts to hands, face, disarranged clothes, something that indicates something is not right. If there were signs of a struggle, of course, it could have been the PIC trying to stop the SIC from jumping just as easily as the PIC murdering the SIC. However, if there were signs of a struggle but the PIC gave the story he gave, then that is what people in the business call a 'clue'. These type of clues frequently lead to charges. The absence of arrest indicates to me that the airplane environment reasonably matched the pilot's story.

Assuming the above you have to agree that the SIC was at the exit point by choice. That he was not forced to the ramp or door. Why was he there? Could it be to go vomit, check the gear, get some air? Who knows. But he was there voluntarily.

So, now we get to what caused him to exit the airplane. I am presuming the PIC is still in the cockpit at this point since we have a damaged aircraft and no claims of missed radio calls. So we have one person at the controls the other at a door or ramp (the only means of realistically exiting the aircraft). At this point murder would be conducted via abrupt and significant maneuvering through the air. A gentle 5* climb probably isn't going to do the job. Most aircraft, certainly this one, should have ADSB to track these behaviors. Does the ADSB track show an unusual amount of climbing / diving / turning right around the time of the SIC departing the aircraft? A pretty simple investigative exercise to find out. However, I have heard no claims of such.

The motive for murder seems to hinge upon the PIC's desire to not be blamed for damaging the aircraft. Yet, it seems that if the PIC was that concerned about it, he could torpedo the SIC simply by engaging in blaming him to the boss. PIC's word vs SIC's word. No need for murder over something like damaging the aircraft. Also note that the PIC said he and the SIC called for the go around at the same time. Not what you would say if you were trying to paint the SIC as incompetent.

Also, who was flying at the time of the damage should be reasonably easy to determine. Was the SIC expected to be flying, who was working the radios, etc. If the SIC was not supposed to be flying, I'd expect the company to say so. The last they want is to be complicit in this kind of behavior by the PIC. So, for them not to be turning on the PIC, there is a reason to believe the SIC was indeed flying the aircraft as PF and the PIC as PM.

Therefore, unless video / audio surfaces or some serious confession by the PIC occurs, I do not see any current facts or reasonable deductions that align with the realistic accusation of murder.

But, at the end of the day, rest assured that there are detectives who will be working this case. They will be looking into the possibility of murder.


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Edited to change "SIC as PM" to "PIC as PM"
 
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