Passengers Report Stolen SeaTac Plane, Grounded Flights

[joycem137]

This is his last youtube video . Looks like the guy was a ground service dude. Folks also found his blog. And his youtube likes.

Most of the LiveATC recordings went silent during this, but you can hear the tower trying to talk to him as he took off here:

Someone collected a recording of the ATC he actually was talking on here:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

 

[wsuffa]

Perhaps this view won't be popular here, but I wish they had shot him down. The military guys here know better than I do - I'm know there's a lot to consider when making that kind of decision - but this ****ing clown just made life significantly harder for everyone else. I'm sorry about whatever mental health stuff he had going on, but this was an opportunity to make it clear what *should* happen when some dip**** decides to pull a stunt like this.

Now we just have a bunch of ATC audio that makes the guy look sympathetic. **** him.

So, how exactly would shooting him down make it any easier on everyone else? That damage was done the minute he went wheels-up (and more likely when he taxiied to takeoff).

Shooting down seems more like revenge compared to him crashing it himself. If he'd aimed for the populated portions of Seattle, sure, shoot him down before he causes a lot of loss of life & property damage, but shooting him down over sparsely populated areas because he made life harder on others? Nope.... that opens a whole big can of worms (lawsuits against the military, questions about military use against US citizens, other similar issues) that in my opinion really don't need to be opened at this time. It wouldn't lessen the damage, and it wouldn't make it any easier on the rest of us.

You're entitled to your opinion - I happen to see it differently.

 

[slacktide]

At least he didn't take out the Space Needle.

The local worry was that he might go for the massive Pearl Jam homecoming concert that was going on at Safeco Field at the time.

https://pearljam.com/thehomeshows/seattle-wa

https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/rock/8469664/pearl-jam-seattle-museum-exhibit

 

[RyanB]

You reminded me of something one of my high school teachers said. A couple times in a short period, there were assassination attempts on President Ford. After the second one, my teacher (also a wrestling coach,) came into the room angry. "Damn it! I wish the Secret Service would have pulled out their guns and blown her brains out all over national TV! THAT would have sent a message!"

Heh! Back when people could freely express their thoughts. If a teacher said that these days, they’d be published on national news and get tossed in prison.

 

[Omalley1537]

So, how exactly would shooting him down make it any easier on everyone else? That damage was done the minute he went wheels-up (and more likely when he taxiied to takeoff).

Shooting down seems more like revenge compared to him crashing it himself. If he'd aimed for the populated portions of Seattle, sure, shoot him down before he causes a lot of loss of life & property damage, but shooting him down over sparsely populated areas because he made life harder on others? Nope.... that opens a whole big can of worms (lawsuits against the military, questions about military use against US citizens, other similar issues) that in my opinion really don't need to be opened at this time. It wouldn't lessen the damage, and it wouldn't make it any easier on the rest of us.

You're entitled to your opinion - I happen to see it differently.

You have the luxury (as we all do) of knowing that he never returned to populated areas once he went out over the water. But at the time, no one could’ve known that, or what his real intentions were. What would your opinion be of it had the F-15’s failed to take him out, then he returned to Seattle where he buried it in the terminal, space needle, and/or one of the other high-density areas, which incidentally would’ve been jam-packed with people on a hot summer Friday evening?

And I forgot all about the Pearl Jam concert. That too.

 

[slacktide]

Well we all know about the guy that was trying to fly to a rap concert last week. Maybe this guy wanted to see some grunge. Is that still a thing? All we can hope for is that he found his own little piece of nirvana at the end.

Noted above, Pearl Jam was playing that night.

Cleared for the Nirvana One departure.

 

[James331]

He didn't sound like he wanted to hurt anyone, just wanted to off himself and maybe toss a big fu to horizon (even though they are probably happier with the insurance check) at the same time.

I'm sure the puritans and people who make a living in "security" and "safety" are already salivating at all the new pointless rules they can annoy everyone with now.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

As a former ramp agent, I will tell you I certainly could have started the engines on the aircraft we worked around. The checklist is typically sitting there, and if you have a bit of smarts you will figure it out.

I guess I'm just not that sharp then. I worked on the ramp servicing 737's while I was already flying professionally during the day and until I sat right seat one night for a taxi move with a mechanic who walked me through the startup and shutdown procedure I would have struggled to get one going. Then again those were old school steam gauge -200 '73's IIRC, perhaps the Q400 are a bit simpler. Or like I said, maybe I'm just not that sharp. Shrug.

 

[wsuffa]

You have the luxury (as we all do) of knowing that he never returned to populated areas once he went out over the water. But at the time, no one could’ve known that, or what his real intentions were. What would your opinion be of it had the F-15’s failed to take him out, then he returned to Seattle where he buried it in the terminal, space needle, and/or one of the other high-density areas, which incidentally would’ve been jam-packed with people on a hot summer Friday evening?

And I forgot all about the Pearl Jam concert. That too.

I think this statement of mine covers it: "If he'd aimed for the populated portions of Seattle, sure, shoot him down before he causes a lot of loss of life & property damage".

It really takes but a few seconds to shoot him down, and considerably longer than that to fly into the city.

I stand by my comment.

 

[SkyDog58]

Noted above, Pearl Jam was playing that night.

Cleared for the Nirvana One departure.


View attachment 66173

Too funny.

 

[Tantalum]

Perhaps this view won't be popular here, but I wish they had shot him down.

I was wondering about this too, especially with the jets scrambled and tailing him. The Twitter page with the video is no longer loading for some reason, but on one of the videos it actually looked like when he was over the water something streaked by his wing. A few moments later you see the fighter jet in trail

it look like he was flying over relatively remote area over water and stuff, I wonder if he had started heading towards the more urban areas they would have shot him down right away. Also I'm sure it helped that they were in communication with him

I didn't see a good video of the crash, but do we for 100% know that he was not shot down?

 

[MtnMarcus]

We need to get to root cause. We have to prevent the airlines from making their employees miserable and despondent to the point of suicide. (Also their passengers, but that’s another thread...)

BIIIIG stretch to say the airlines/his job caused this. I get not liking your job but to the point of pulling off a stunt like this? Might have been a contributing factor but i'm sure more was going on behind the scenes

 

[Scrabo]

Wonder if he had a flight background at all. It’s one thing to get in. Another to get it started and rolling.

Was wondering the same thing, there were parts it appeared he knew what he was doing with the aircraft

 

[Tantalum]

I'm wondering what the legal and regulatory outcome of this will be. Mental health has been front and center recently so that will continue to be a focus. was always kind of a surprise to me that cockpit doors weren't kept just locked at all times with a key card access code like the jetways at airports

 

[Matthew]

Heh! Back when people could freely express their thoughts. If a teacher said that these days, they’d be published on national news and get tossed in prison.

Times sure are different. His rant went on for several more minutes but that's for another thread.

A shoot down means pieces coming down somewhere, and there would be plenty of NIMBYs complaining. And the handwringers would have complained that the controllers didn't try hard enough to guide him to a safe landing. CNN would need to find more experts.

 

[slacktide]

Then again those were old school steam gauge -200 '73's IIRC, perhaps the Q400 are a bit simpler. Or like I said, maybe I'm just not that sharp. Shrug.

I have not started a Q400, but I have started a 787. It’s amazingly simple, now that FADEC is common. Way simpler than starting a fuel injected GA single. If you are on ground power, it’s literally three actions for the pilot to take, and no pilot monitoring required, computers take care of it. If you need the APU for electrical power, two additional actions before starting the mains.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

"not a terrorist act" - so insured, right?

 

[midwestpa24]

KING TV had the best coverage. The video link below has the Q400 inverted coming out of a barrel roll and then doing a fair imitation of Bob Hoover. In Seattle we were amazed it took over an hour for "breaking news" to hit national coverage. If you are on the West Coast, you really don't exist. Have the same thing happen on the East Coast and it would be breaking into national broadcasts.
The flight sim for the Q400 is pretty complete on MSFSX and if he was a ramper, he had plenty of time in the cockpit sitting around. A sad way to end a life early and I hope that the regulations that are coming are rational. It seems like can't let a single incident happen without thinking we have to regulate it. https://www.king5.com/article/news/...airport-crashed-on-small-island/281-582563371

I wouldn't say the west coast gets ignored...try living in the Midwest. I think a lot of the lack of national coverage was due to timing. This happens late evening on the west coast. It was almost midnight on the east coast. I was already asleep and didn't see anything til morning.

 

[midwestpa24]

Perhaps this view won't be popular here, but I wish they had shot him down. The military guys here know better than I do - I'm know there's a lot to consider when making that kind of decision - but this ****ing clown just made life significantly harder for everyone else. I'm sorry about whatever mental health stuff he had going on, but this was an opportunity to make it clear what *should* happen when some dip**** decides to pull a stunt like this.

Now we just have a bunch of ATC audio that makes the guy look sympathetic. **** him.

I think the were right not to shoot in this situation. It is a huge moral and legal leap to use military force on a civilian in any situation. Just think back to the Kent State shootings (look it up if you are too young). He clearly stated to ATC he did not wish to hurt anyone. He was not making any threatening actions. I think ATC and everyone involved was hoping for a peaceful resolution and to talk him down.

I'm sure if a threat did become apparent though, someone in the chain of command, maybe even as high as the president would have authorized the use of deadly force.

 

[Zeldman]

Maybe a law should be passed making it illegal to fly an airplane without a license....... yeah, that should work....

 

[kayoh190]

I think the were right not to shoot in this situation. It is a huge moral and legal leap to use military force on a civilian in any situation. Just think back to the Kent State shootings (look it up if you are too young). He clearly stated to ATC he did not wish to hurt anyone. He was not making any threatening actions. I think ATC and everyone involved was hoping for a peaceful resolution and to talk him down.

That's fair. There's a certain amount of my post that was/is emotionally driven, so I'm certainly open to alternative viewpoints on this.

 

[slacktide]

I didn't see a good video of the crash, but do we for 100% know that he was not shot down?

NORAD states that the fighters did not fire any weapons.

https://twitter.com/Norad_Northcom/status/1028197334361034753

 

[rtk11]

I don’t know what troubled this young man, but it seems he had a mission in mind. I am glad that it wasn’t a worse outcome (whether he intended or not) and that he has found peace. Very sad.

 

[Tantalum]

had a mission in mind

what kind of mission? He was remorseful on the radio and apologized for jamming things up and said he didn't want to hurt anyone. Seems like something just "broke" in his brain

Someone posted up his youtube video and blog. This whole thing is so bizarre. No weird "manifesto" left.. just seemed like a nice enough kid with a loving family who lost all concept of right and wrong and decided to go fly a plane.. just like if it was Microsoft Flight Simulator or something

So strange.

 

[slacktide]

Too soon?

 

[rtk11]

what kind of mission? He was remorseful on the radio and apologized for jamming things up and said he didn't want to hurt anyone. Seems like something just "broke" in his brain

By his quotes, I’m thinking he had thoughts to end his life (what I was referring to as his mission, but that’s only my guess). Perhaps I’m wrong and he just did something impulsively. We’ll never know.

 

[RyanB]

I’m just thankful that he didn’t try to take anyone else out with him. It could’ve been a lot worse had he have crashed into a populated area.

 

[benyflyguy]

So ATC is trying to talk the guy down. Has that ever worked??
It seems like these guys that chose death by plane are pretty committed before they yell, “props clear”.
Sad to see.
Still amazed that he got it started. Watched my friend start his MU2 probably a dozen times and I don’t think there’s a chance in hell I’d wver get it spinning let alone up in the air!!

 

[Zeldman]

just seemed like a nice enough kid with a loving family who lost all concept of right and wrong and decided to go fly a plane..

Surprising the number of kids that are not taught the concept of right and wrong. A couple local kids, 12, 13 years old, went through a neighborhood smashing house windows. When asked about it they said, "It was fun, what's your problem.??" When they found out they were in trouble they got mad and kept repeating what's your problem.

 

[denverpilot]

I know better, but for kicks I watched one of the "news" broadcasts that is on Youtube. The had their aviation "analysts" on there. They were discussing the video of the air tricks he was doing. He said he has been on this type of turboprop before doesn't recall ever being on one doing a maneuver like that before.

View attachment 66172

Just think, whenever they’re talking about ANY topic, the experts in THAT topic are rolling their eyes, too.

Realizing that, you pretty much figure out to turn them off and never listen to them again.

BIIIIG stretch to say the airlines/his job caused this. I get not liking your job but to the point of pulling off a stunt like this? Might have been a contributing factor but i'm sure more was going on behind the scenes

He specifically made “jokes” with the controller and the pilot helping him about “minimum wage” and maybe this would get the attention of “higher ups”.

Definitely more going on in his head and life than that, but having just stolen an airplane to kill himself with, he hadn’t forgotten not only how bad his paycheck was, but remembered to joke about it on the radio and make sure to mention the “higher ups” — just in case any of them had a conscience. That’s pretty telling.

You never really forget you’re poor, it’s somewhat all pervasive at the time, for whatever that’s worth. I can’t imagine it’s easy, living in Seattle on a rampie’s salary. Or anywhere really.

"not a terrorist act" - so insured, right?

If they weren’t self-insured. But yes, if the authorities had labeled it even “domestic terrorism” the insurance companies all let themselves off the hook for that.

So basically yes, it all depended on where he planned to crash, and secondarily where he did crash, as to whether or not anyone would see a dime from an insurer... since where he crashes is the only thing that dictates whether they will label it terrorism these days.

I’m sure it’ll go to arbitration if Horizon was covered and whoever the underwriter is will have their lawyers argue that it was terrorism, the airline didn’t do enough to mental health screen, they didn’t protect the aircraft adequately, a whole laundry list of things — so they can negotiate a lower payment. Lawyers on retainer are cheaper than big payouts. Their actuaries have all those numbers figured out.

 

[Brad Smith]

I questioned the wisdom of the controller tying to bring him back for a landing. All those planes full of passengers holding short, could have been a real disaster. The guy didn’t have the confidence to land a Q400 and instructing him to return for a landing could have been way worse outcome.
I had two sisters traveling together that departed SeaTac shortly before this happened so you may see my concern. Sad but thankful it was only him that perished. RIP

 

[wsuffa]

Surprising the number of kids that are not taught the concept of right and wrong. A couple local kids, 12, 13 years old, went through a neighborhood smashing house windows. When asked about it they said, "It was fun, what's your problem.??" When they found out they were in trouble they got mad and kept repeating what's your problem.

That's apparently the school's job. And the government's job.

 

[midwestpa24]

I questioned the wisdom of the controller tying to bring him back for a landing. All those planes full of passengers holding short, could have been a real disaster. The guy didn’t have the confidence to land a Q400 and instructing him to return for a landing could have been way worse outcome.
I had two sisters traveling together that departed SeaTac shortly before this happened so you may see my concern. Sad but thankful it was only him that perished. RIP

That's why they were trying to get him to go to McChord Air Force Base nearby.

I get the guys saying it looks difficult to fire up a plane like this and get it in the air. It is difficult to do it if you are trying to do it all by the book. If all you're intention is to get the props spinning and get in the air, its gets a lot simpler. You can skip probably half the normal checklist procedures. Its not like he needed to align the FMS/INS, program in the flight plan, do W&B, turn on the A/C etc. etc. All he needed was master on, fuel pumps on, engage starter and turn on fuel. If these are FADEC, its even easier. Last jet I was in, a basic no thrills, no brain start would only require turning on one switch and twisting the engine control from off to start and releasing. The plane did the rest of the work.

I would guess this guy woke up that morning and decided this is it. He couldn't take it anymore. I would also guess he was intoxicated or medicated. He kept mentioning light headiness and was worried about pressurization. Doesn't sound like he ever got about 5,000 feet, so hypoxia wasn't his problem. Not being a pilot he probably didn't know that. So someone with severe depression, for at this time unknown reasons, maybe a few other psychosis, and intoxicated decided to steal a plane and end it all. He succeeded.

I do wonder what the government's response will be. Hopefully a healthy dose of common sense, but hey who are we talking about here. There will probably be a knee jerk reaction, aided by some congressman that doesn't know the difference between a Q400 and a cruise ship. Probably raise pilot hour requirements to 2500 hours just for kicks.

 

[LoLPilot]

I am in the "against shooting him down" category. He had said multiple times from what I've seen that he didn't want to hurt anyone else and even apologized to ATC. It sounds like something happened he couldn't deal with and he wanted to do something incredible/exciting and then be done with it, but he knew that it was just him. I feel very sad for him and very sad for his loved ones.

As far as security goes, almost certainly people will hand wring about how we need to restrict the rights of those that don't want to hurt anyone because someone, somewhere, someday, may want to.

 

[Tantalum]

I am in the "against shooting him down" category. He had said multiple times from what I've seen that he didn't want to hurt anyone else and even apologized to ATC. It sounds like something happened he couldn't deal with and he wanted to do something incredible/exciting and then be done with it, but he knew that it was just him. I feel very sad for him and very sad for his loved ones.

Drunk drivers generally don't want to hurt anyone either. I feel very bad, and honestly sad for this guy. His blog and Youtube video really humanize him. As long as he stays over the water and remote areas I agree, try to get him to ditch or down at the AF base.. however if he turned towards the more populated areas my conjecture is that he gets shot down while still over the water. A.) you've likely saved dozens of lives and B.) you send a very clear "DON'T F WITH THIS" message to anyone else who may potentially have this idea. At this point you aren't dealing with a sane level headed person.. you are dealing with someone who's stolen a commercial airliner and is doing aerobatic maneuvers in the air while throwing up all over the cockpit and complaining about lightheadedness. This guy was a train off the tracks.

 

[LoLPilot]

Drunk drivers generally don't want to hurt anyone either. I feel very bad, and honestly sad for this guy. His blog and Youtube video really humanize him. As long as he stays over the water and remote areas I agree, try to get him to ditch or down at the AF base.. however if he turned towards the more populated areas my conjecture is that he gets shot down while still over the water. A.) you've likely saved dozens of lives and B.) you send a very clear "DON'T F WITH THIS" message to anyone else who may potentially have this idea. At this point you aren't dealing with a sane level headed person.. you are dealing with someone who's stolen a commercial airliner and is doing aerobatic maneuvers in the air while throwing up all over the cockpit and complaining about lightheadedness. This guy was a train off the tracks.

Logically it should go without saying to shoot him down if he goes for a populated area, but as midwestpa said he didn't do that and actively expressed wanting to keep people out of harms way. His stunts looked like they were over water and where he crashed was sparsely populated. Hardly someone who had murderous convictions.

 

[Tantalum]

^in fact, let's say he flew around over Puget sound for an hour then flew straight into downtown and crashed the thing (because he passed out, whatever) I can bet you the majority of people out there would be screaming "why didn't they shoot him down first"

**given how everything went down, this was honestly the best outcome, outside of him landing the plane safetly at McChord and getting attention. Given the state he was in I wonder what kind of sentencing he would have received

 

[denverpilot]

As far as security goes, almost certainly people will hand wring about how we need to restrict the rights of those that don't want to hurt anyone because someone, somewhere, someday, may want to.

“Large capacity aircraft are assault aircraft! Nobody needs that sort of destructive power!”

 

[Tantalum]

Logically it should go without saying to shoot him down if he goes for a populated area, but as midwestpa said he didn't do that and actively expressed wanting to keep people out of harms way. His stunts looked like they were over water and where he crashed was sparsely populated. Hardly someone who had murderous convictions.

I agree. I followed up my post with

given how everything went down, this was honestly the best outcome, outside of him landing the plane safetly at McChord and getting attention

I totally believe his intentions weren't murderous. Totally agree. Eventually though he was going to pass out / run out of fuel / pull the wings off / etc. I bet those jets were keeping a sharp eye on him to ensure exactly that, that he stays over the water, etc.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

I keep hearing from non pilot folks that this is going to mean more TSA and security measures.

Why!?

If there is anything to be done here, it is to require anybody working on a ramp should be required to carry a 3rd class medical certificate or similar. But would a doctor have noticed this guy was THIS unstable? Probably not.

At the very least, lock cockpits when pilot isn’t in it.

Making TSA harder or general aviation travel harder won’t prevent this in the future.