Part 135 Initial Checkride

tonycondon

tonycondon

Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
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Tony
for those of you who don't know, Ive got my initial Pt. 135 checkride next Tuesday. Ill be flying a 421, the FSDO is coming up to Ames so Ill be able to do the checkride from the comfort of home. I feel pretty good about my knowledge level of the airplane and the procedures. Ive obviously got a copy of the opspecs and training manual and plan to continue studying them. I know many of the folks here are current or former on demand charter pilots. Looking for any insights into what your experience was/is. Im looking forward to the checkride, but of course want to make sure I know my stuff. What are some 'gotchas' I should look out for. Thanks!
 
Stay at or above the VASI on either the SE or ME approaches. NEVER below.
 
Assuming it's only a VFR 12-month check, think of it as an ME add-on practical test -- that's it. If you can fly the plane, it's no big deal. If you're also getting an IFR 6-month check, too, that adds a few approaches (one with autopilot, one with one engine inop, one ILS, one or two NP's of which one will be PP). The only new stuff will be the 135 rules and company Ops Specs, but the company's training program should have covered that adequately. Remember, the company trained you, the company's giving you the check, and they wouldn't waste their time and money on that if they didn't think you would pass it with ease.
 
ron - its my first 135 ride so will include the VFR and IFR checks. making sure ive got a good handle on the 135 rules and opspecs is mostly what im looking for info on. I know that the opspecs is company specific so thats between me and my cheif pilot to decipher. In my 5 or 6 yrs of dealing with Pt. 91 and 61 i feel i have a pretty good feel for how they play together. throwing another section into the mix seems a little overwhelming, and id like to be able to know the intricacies of the part like i know 91 and 61.
 
tonycondon said:
ron - its my first 135 ride so will include the VFR and IFR checks. making sure ive got a good handle on the 135 rules and opspecs is mostly what im looking for info on. I know that the opspecs is company specific so thats between me and my cheif pilot to decipher. In my 5 or 6 yrs of dealing with Pt. 91 and 61 i feel i have a pretty good feel for how they play together. throwing another section into the mix seems a little overwhelming, and id like to be able to know the intricacies of the part like i know 91 and 61.
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DUTY TIMES!!! The flying is just flying, if you've got that, no worries there, they don't push an airplane they would in the sim. Aircraft systems....inside and out, you should be able to draw out the systems. Minimums and alternates and duty time is where they trip alot of people, especially pt 135 duty times. I don't know if they've straightened that mess out in the last 10 years, but it used to be nuts, the ifs, unless, and thens. Aussie duty time is just as bad.
 
yea henning, ive got to get that sorted out for sure. part of the problem is that, the way my chief pilot talks, every time we have switched Principle Op Inspectors at the FSDO, the duty time interpretation has changed. bigtime sigh.
 
tonycondon said:
yea henning, ive got to get that sorted out for sure. part of the problem is that, the way my chief pilot talks, every time we have switched Principle Op Inspectors at the FSDO, the duty time interpretation has changed. bigtime sigh.
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What happen to the maximum of ten flight hours in a 24 hour period, 14 hours duty time and ten hours rest between duty times?
 
youve got the basics kenny, although im pretty sure the 10 hrs flight time is only if its a 2 pilot crew. single pilot is 8 hrs with 14 hr duty time and must always have 10 hrs rest in the last 24. i think most of the confusion comes from defining what is and is not duty time, when duty time starts, and when it ends etc.
 
Awesome, TC, congrats and good luck! Now just don't screw up :).
 
tonycondon said:
youve got the basics kenny, although im pretty sure the 10 hrs flight time is only if its a 2 pilot crew. single pilot is 8 hrs with 14 hr duty time and must always have 10 hrs rest in the last 24. i think most of the confusion comes from defining what is and is not duty time, when duty time starts, and when it ends etc.
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I believe Netjets operates under 135.267(c) which works out well with a good amount of their duty time sitting in FBOs somewhere in the country.

A question I had was when does "flight time" start. I wondered if it was from the moment they began preflight and had control or when the engines spooled. It's the latter. So, that can cut into what may otherwise be considered duty time.

This last week, I spent the middle part of the day between my traffic flights hanging out at Signature, yacking quite a bit with the various corporate jocks who come through. Probably 75% of them are Flight Options and Netjets. I just hope they get decent hotel stays.
 
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ill have to read through that tomorrow when im not focused on this stupid FORTRAN code. after a few looks through, the gears are simply spinning as to the difference between 267(b) and (c). my mind is apparently burnt, and the night has just begun.
 
tonycondon said:
ill have to read through that tomorrow when im not focused on this stupid FORTRAN code. after a few looks through, the gears are simply spinning as to the difference between 267(b) and (c). my mind is apparently burnt, and the night has just begun.
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Just don't use a HALO system to put out any fires. :eek:
 
tonycondon said:
yea henning, ive got to get that sorted out for sure. part of the problem is that, the way my chief pilot talks, every time we have switched Principle Op Inspectors at the FSDO, the duty time interpretation has changed. bigtime sigh.
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It sure is frustrating.

KennyFlys said:
I believe Netjets operates under 135.267(c) which works out well with a good amount of their duty time sitting in FBOs somewhere in the country.

A question I had was when does "flight time" start. I wondered if it was from the moment they began preflight and had control or when the engines spooled. It's the latter. So, that can cut into what may otherwise be considered duty time.

This last week, I spent the middle part of the day between my traffic flights hanging out at Signature, yacking quite a bit with the various corporate jocks who come through. Probably 75% of them are Flight Options and Netjets. I just hope they get decent hotel stays.
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Duty time starts when the crew arrives at the FBO more or less (or as defined in the company OpsSpecs), not when the engines spool up. Some companies require and build in a 1.5 hour preflight prior to the first leg of the first day (except for new Captains and F/o's on IOE) and 1 hour prior to scheduled departure for subsequent days, which is when duty officially starts for their crews. Four main duty times exist: active, reserve, airport standby, and rest. Airport standby, which is a duty usually assigned to many crews in the fractional sector, is technically an official duty and contributes to the 14 hour duty day. NetJets operates on similar principles (most of which are outlined in their Collective Bargaining Agreement).

Best of luck on the checkride, Tony. None of us are even worrying about it, in fact you've already passed it. Just show the inspector we're right.
 
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That's awesome, Tony. And we all know you won't screw it up. :no: :D
 
im starting to wonder whether or not i should've told you all that i was taking the ride! :D now if i goof it up ill HAVE to tell you
 
KennyFlys said:
A question I had was when does "flight time" start.
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That's covered in 14 CFR 1.1: "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing."
 
tonycondon said:
ron - its my first 135 ride so will include the VFR and IFR checks.
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Ah. The outfit I worked for only let us be VFR captains for our first six months after upgrade from co-pilot unless you had substantial prior experience (a lot more than the 135 IFR PIC mins).
 
Hey good luck Tony, I wouldnt sweat it, word on knowing the duty times, but as long as you can bust out the inst. skills no sweat its not that big of deal. Also be ready for a bunch of IFR minimums scenarios.( Like can you take off and head for KFOD if the METAR says this and the TAF says that)
 
Tony,
You will be fine. The main point is op specs in general. The FAA probably wont dive into it real deep. They just want to make sure you have a good knowledge of it. Flying is flying. Every six months I have a PIC check which is just another checkride. No one flies perfect and they know it. Only the true idiots of the FAA will bust you on one thing. Just make sure you do not go below any min's or GS's. The single engine work will be interesting to see how they do it. Those engines do not like to be at idle and most FAA guys wont shut one down fully. Take your time on the checkride. It's not your money, so there is no reason to rush. If you dont like something, just get re-vectored. Its when you try and save a crappy situation, that you get screwed. Even if you dont bust on a crappy save, you will wonder the whole time what you can do better. So, it's just easier to take your time. Good luck.

Brent
 
tonycondon said:
youve got the basics kenny, although im pretty sure the 10 hrs flight time is only if its a 2 pilot crew. single pilot is 8 hrs with 14 hr duty time and must always have 10 hrs rest in the last 24. i think most of the confusion comes from defining what is and is not duty time, when duty time starts, and when it ends etc.
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This is all true including the confusion. Our duty time starts when we show up at the airport which is normally one hour before departure. It ends a half hour after landing unless there are other extenuating circumstances. A lot of the controversy about duty time comes from how to define the time when pilots are standing by and obligated to take a flight if it comes up. Is that duty time, or is that neither duty nor rest? I don't think that question will come up with you Tony, since I'm guessing you are not full time and not obligated to take pop-up flights. The other issue with duty time is the question of when it is OK to exceed it. I'm not even going to try to get into the different scenarios and controversies here. Duty time is not as straightforward as you might think and can be interpreted in many different ways just like the rest of the regs.

As far as the test goes, except for my 299 line check which has always been done by a company check airman, I have never taken a Part 135 checkride in anything other than a simulator at a training provider so I'm not sure I can give you any advice here. The checkrides I have taken are just like the ones you might take for a type rating or ATP, the difference being that you are allowed something like two or three strikes (you can botch a maneuver and try again) before you fail. The oral normally consists of mostly systems questions.

Especially because this is your first Part 135 checkride I would expect a lot of questions on the regs which are new to you. Also, it would be nice to know how to apply the regs in different situations in addition to being able to spout them off. One other thing I thought of is that since the examiner is going to be a passenger, don't forget to give him or her the safety briefing. Hope this helps.
 
Clay, Brent, Mari -

thanks for the insights. I also just got an email from our recent departed (for Lincoln) 135 pilot, and he gave me the lowdown on what to expect for the initial ride from my examiner. Sounds like basically the same stuff you are saying

CJones said:
No worries, though.. You'll ace it! (You BETTER ace it and open up some CFI time for me this summer. ;))
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If you want students this summer Im sure we'll have them, but YOU better start studying! :D
 
Hey Tony, I share your pain in attempting to decipher 135 regs. My checkride was pretty straightforward, I reviewed most things with our chief pilot the day before the ride. Biggest things were duty time, load manifests, equipment checks/inspections, other random FARs, aircraft limitations and systems, a few op specs stuff like deicing program, hazmat, LAHSO, MEL, and wx requirements. All in all there weren't too many surprises and it took no more than 2.5 hours from start to finish. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
 
Ron Levy said:
That's covered in 14 CFR 1.1: "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing."
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A weakness of mine... I need to dig into Part 1 again.

With that definition, the time spent while engines are running and you're entirely responsible during such leaves a lot to be desired. At least there's the duty time to fall back on so you cannot be forced into another flight with the statement, "You've flown only XX hours today!"
 
KennyFlys said:
A weakness of mine... I need to dig into Part 1 again.

With that definition, the time spent while engines are running and you're entirely responsible during such leaves a lot to be desired. At least there's the duty time to fall back on so you cannot be forced into another flight with the statement, "You've flown only XX hours today!"
Click to expand...

Whenever I start an engine, the airplane moves under it's own power. Maybe just a little, and it my return to it's original position because the brakes are set, but it moves.:D
 
Ben - was your checkride for VFR or are you doing IFR in th 414 now?

Chip and Lance - thanks, I think.

FSDO inspector must be reading this thread. He called today and pushed me back a week to the 18th. Another week to study and get all this stuff nailed down for sure. Ive got a couple flights planned for the next week with the boss in the 421 so I should be able to do some polishing up then. need to do some single engine stuff, its been a while since I did that.

I do have the ops manual sitting here next to me now so Ive got no excuse not to study!
 
I'm still VFR only in the 414. This winter has been less than ideal for me to get hours in, but I've gotten a few out of it. Have fun with the 421!
 
yea i dont know what we're doing right up here in Ames but all 3 of us CFI's have been as busy as we want to be. This has somehow been my busiest winter ever and the weather has SUCKED! i guess im just lucky.

did you do your ride with Roger in the 414?
 
Hi Tony, I'm just seeing this thread now and also want to offer my best wishes. I know you'll do great, and we're waiting to hear about the experience. Don't forget to have fun! We do this 'cause we want to.
 
had a good run through with da boss today. 1.8 hrs of steep turns, stalls, VOR/DME approach with circle to land, GPS with missed, ILS (single engine) to landing, emergency gear extension, and a coupled ILS to a full stop. i was beat afterward. flying was pretty good, stayed within standards the whole time and did a great job of keeping a fast airplane slow and stabilized. checkride in a week and im feeling pretty ready. we spent the morning going over regs, opspecs etc. its tough being a student!
 
FSDO wanted to push it back, for some reason.
 
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