Paperwork issue?

[Warren Dunes]

"They" say the job taint done till the paperwork is done... But, what if it's... well... wrong?

I have seen a paper copy of the Form 8050-3, and the permanent metal Identity plate of the same aircraft. I have seen a copy of the logbooks of that aircraft and the CD from OKC. But talking to an insurer, I was told that the aircraft was destroyed many years ago. (Specifically "presumed to have crashed into Lake Michigan on a trip from WI to MI with one fatality.")

ORDER 8100.19 (10/15/18), "addresses the re-registration of aircraft that may have previously been classified as destroyed or scrapped and describes the procedures a person may use to dispute a determination that an aircraft has been destroyed or scrapped." But I'm not sure the FAA is even saying it was destroyed, just the insurance company's "great computer in the sky."

47.41 says an owner (and of course that could be the insurance company if it totaled out an aircraft) must notify the Registration Branch, return the 8050-3, and the identity plate. That of course renders the aircraft an "ex-aircraft." This all happened at least three owners ago... So I am at something of a loss. I find it difficult to believe that Owner "A" crashed, the insurance company (owner "B") deregistered the plane... Sold it as an airplane... Hmmm... AND the FAA subsequently reregistered it to owner "C" and five years later owner "D."

I imagine the FAA can confirm the 8050-3 is (or is not) valid and the aircraft was never (or was) legally deregistered.

Grrrr.

 

[Bell206]

I have seen a paper copy of the Form 8050-3, and the permanent metal Identity plate of the same aircraft.

Not enough info to make an informed reply, but is the data plate the original plate installed on this specific aircraft, or was it moved to another aircraft? How long ago was the Lake Michigan accident?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Get the records from Oklahoma City.

 

[Warren Dunes]

Not enough info to make an informed reply, but is the data plate the original plate installed on this specific aircraft, or was it moved to another aircraft? How long ago was the Lake Michigan accident?

Obviously, I don't know. But it's an old data plate on an old aircraft and shows no sign of being removed (of course a mechanic might not just use a pry-bar to rip it off). But it was nearly 13 years and 3 owners ago. That more than anything screams to me paperwork snafu (not sure that it matters tho'). The paper logbook / SELLERS copy of CD from OKC shows a nose over / prop strike accident in the same time frame as the supposed fatal crash into the "American Lake." With a sale, engine swap, and other modifications a few months later.

 

[Zeldman]

"They" say the job taint done till the paperwork is done... But, what if it's... well... wrong?

In my case a 10 day suspension....

 

[Bell206]

But it was nearly 13 years and 3 owners ago. That more than anything screams to me paperwork snafu

There is no "official" aircraft scrapped listing other than what some OEMs keep records of. You may want to contact the aircraft OEM direct and see what their records say. Having messed with several similar helicopters I would fix the paperwork snafu to correct what that insurer sees otherwise you could set yourself up for a future issue regardless if 3 previous owners didn't. Another option is take what records you have and physically match them to the actual aircraft then you might be able to disprove the "destroyed" story. Since Order 8100.19 was released more of these type of aircraft have been culled out causing a few people some serious grief.

 

[SkyDog58]

Have you searched the N# on the NTSB database?
You state that you have seen the records on the CD and the logbooks, are there any 337s or other indication of major repairs of the type that would lend credence to the insurance company's destroyed claim?
An insurance agent might call it destroyed because it was totaled after an event. This is an economic determination. Not a FAA one. It does not mean that it cannot be repaired.
Care to share the N#?

 

[Warren Dunes]

Have you searched the N# on the NTSB database?

I checked before traveling to see it. It was and is registered in the name of the current seller-- I'll call him "D"-- with a date consistent with when seller said he bought the airplane from "C".

You state that you have seen the records on the CD and the logbooks, are there any 337s or other indication of major repairs of the type that would lend credence to the insurance company's destroyed claim?

Exactly the opposite, it was damaged, but not submerged. I have seen copies of the bills of sale for "D" and "C". And while yes, they could easily have been fabricated, the items replaced per log book entries are consistent with a nose over not sinking. Immediately after buying the airplane "C" had the O-235 replaced with a O-320 (four associated STCs) and the airplane converted to conventional gear (another STC). While the avionics on the equipment list for instance did not change.

An insurance agent might call it destroyed because it was totaled after an event. This is an economic determination. Not a FAA one. It does not mean that it cannot be repaired.

The signature of owner "A" was on the bill of sale to "C", so reports of his demise were likely exagerated. The plane may have passed from "A" to "B" (insurance company) back to "A" to "C".

There is no NTSB report of any accident with this aircraft (but my reading of 49 CFR §830.2 is there would not have to be one for a non-injury noseover subsequent to landing) There would have to be were there a fatality. I can't see how "B" would have deregistered it (other than possibly in error) and then sold it back to "A". I also don't see how the FAA could have subsequently registered it twice in 13 years to two different owners ("C" and "D") if it were decertified.

Of course the insurance-cabal may decide not to ever insure it either...

 

[SkyDog58]

I’m a little surprised there is not a NTSB report if the insurance company wrote it off. Most insurance total losses involve substantial damage which would make it an accident. Though there are cases when that isn’t true.

On the other hand, the FAA would not list it as destroyed without substantial damage. And they certainly would not yank the airworthiness unless they considered it destroyed. It is the FAA determination that matters, not an insurance adjuster.

And do not worry about it having been deregistered if it was. That has no impact on anything as aircraft can be deregistered for various reasons that have nothing to do with its airworthiness. That is why there are two documents, Airworthiness Certificate and Aircraft Registration.

My best guess is that the person at the insurance company doesn’t know what they are talking about.

 

[Clip4]

If an insurance company pays out the policy value of a damaged aircraft to an owner, is the insurance company required to “total” the aircraft and notify the FAA?

Assume the damaged aircraft is insured for $100 and requires $75 to repair. The damaged hull has a value of $35k. The insurance company can pay off the owner @$100, sell the damaged hull for $35 and save $10. Are they required to notify the FAA the plane was totaled?

 

[Warren Dunes]

My understanding is that insurance is strictly a contractual arrangement between the owner and an underwriter where should certain conditions spelled out in the contract be met the insurer will repair or purchase the damaged aircraft. There are many web pages with insurance company owned aircraft for sale as surplus... A neighbor bought a 1.5 wing Cub that way (one wing is "clipped" just past the strut attachment point).

AOPA January 1, 2021 By Ian Arendt:

“Totaled” is insurance industry shorthand for a total loss which occurs when, after suffering damage, the cost of repair exceeds the aircraft’s insured value. Since “totaled” is purely an insurance-related concept, it does not factor into any FAA analysis of the aircraft's status.

For the purposes of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR), the only recognized phrase is “totally destroyed or scrapped” and appears in FAR § 47.41 (a)(2). While the FARs fail to specify what constitutes an aircraft that is totally destroyed or scrapped, FAA Order 8100.19 defines the terms “destroyed” and “scrapped”:

The FAA considers an aircraft to be destroyed if all of its primary structure is damaged to the extent that it would be impracticable to return the aircraft to an airworthy condition by repair.

The FAA considers an aircraft to be scrapped when it has been discarded and disposed of in a manner that it cannot be repaired to an airworthy condition.

The key consideration here is whether the worse for wear aircraft can legally be repaired. The basic premise is that so long as there exists one primary structure around which a repair can be performed, the aircraft may be repaired and need not be declared destroyed or scrapped. If all primary structures must be replaced, the aircraft is not repairable and must be declared destroyed or scrapped...

 

[Warren Dunes]

I’m a little surprised there is not a NTSB report if the insurance company wrote it off...

EAA August 01, 1995:

All aircraft accidents must be reported to the nearest National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Field Office. An understanding of the definition of accident may save you from reporting something that is not required. Once you have determined that you are required to report the situation, you must report it immediately to the nearest NTSB office. You do not report it to the FAA.

49 CFR § 830.2 provides definitions for aircraft accident, serious injury and substantial damage as follows:

Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage.

So the key to this definition is knowing what is meant by a “serious injury and “substantial damage”.

Serious injury means any injury which:

• 
  (1) Requires hospitalization for more than 48 hours, commencing within 7 days from the date of the injury was received;
  (2) results in a fracture of any bone (except simple fractures of fingers, toes, or nose);
  (3) causes severe hemorrhages, nerve, muscle, or tendon damage;
  (4) involves any internal organ; or
  (5) involves second or third degree burns, or any burns affecting more than 5 percent of the body surface.

Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component.

The following are NOT considered “substantial damage”:

• 
  • Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged,
  • bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric,
  • ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and
  • damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips.

In addition to report all aircraft accidents, the following aircraft incidents must be reported to NTSB:

• 
  (a) Flight control system malfunction or failure.
  (b) Inability of any required flight crew member to perform their normal flight duties as a result of injury or illness.
  (c) Failure of structural components of a turbine engine excluding compressor and turbine blades and vanes.
  (d) Inflight fire.
  (e) Aircraft collide in flight.
  (f) Damage to property, other than the aircraft, estimated to exceed $25,000 for repair (including materials and labor) or fair market value in the event of total loss, whichever is less.

So, what was described to have happened 13 years ago by the seller, logbooks, and STCs almost perfectly fits "The following are NOT considered 'substantial damage': damage limited to an engine... propeller blades, and... landing gear."

 

[SkyDog58]

Yes I know the regulation quite well and nothing in it is in disagreement with what I wrote.

 

[Bell206]

what was described to have happened 13 years ago by the seller, logbooks, and STCs almost perfectly fits "The following are NOT considered 'substantial damage': damage limited to an engine... propeller blades, and... landing gear."

How did you search for any potential NTSB report? The current CAROL search engine is not as user friendly as the previous one and it can be very easy to miss reports. If you want to share the N# and serial number I can look again through a different search.

Of course the insurance-cabal may decide not to ever insure it either...

Keep in mind this is not an FAA issue. As far as they are concerned its an airworthy aircraft given it has an effective AWC and registration. However, in the last 10 years or so and especially after Order 8100.19 was released the insurance carriers have been "emboldened" to take a more forceful stance. Yes they can refuse to insure an aircraft for any reason, but they have zero authority to determine if an aircraft is scrapped/destroyed unless they are the certificate holder of record. There have been several high profile repaired "scrapped" aircraft that were taken through the NTSB Admin process to get their documents issued. One aircraft was submerge in water after a hurricane but not "physically" damaged. The insurance carrier paid off the claim and took possession via a Form 8050 which they subsequently (as owner) turned in the registration per Part 47 as destroyed and pulled the data plate. The FAA can't even do that under current rule but they can now declare an aircraft "destroyed" per 8100.19 and inform the Registry Office. So in reality this is only a problem with that insurance guy. I would request where/how he is making the destroyed determination before spending any more time on this. As mentioned by Skydog this guy might be clueless on this subject matter.

 

[Bell206]

If an insurance company pays out the policy value of a damaged aircraft to an owner, is the insurance company required to “total” the aircraft and notify the FAA?

No.

Assume the damaged aircraft is insured for $100 and requires $75 to repair. The damaged hull has a value of $35k. The insurance company can pay off the owner @$100, sell the damaged hull for $35 and save $10. Are they required to notify the FAA the plane was totaled?

No.

 

[Warren Dunes]

How did you search for any potential NTSB report? The current CAROL search engine is not as user friendly as the previous one and it can be very easy to miss reports.

Thanks for the offer, but it is clear to me the insurance company has bad data (GIGO). In addition to NTSB I looked at Flight Safety, and both the origin and destination cities newspapers-- nada. I'm thinking CAROL was named for Bob 'the psychiatrist' Newhart's red-headed secretary on the 1970s sitcom.

Keep in mind this is not an FAA issue. As far as they are concerned its an airworthy aircraft given it has an effective AWC and registration.

Yup,

I would request where/how he is making the destroyed determination before spending any more time on this. As mentioned by Skydog this guy might be clueless on this subject matter.

Typed up and posted, he is completely clueless.

 

[bluerooster]

$10 to OKC will get you a cd containing all the records on file with the FAA concerning that airplane.

 

[bluerooster]

Mabe the insurance company totaled that airplane at sometime in the past. Took possession, sold it at auction, and the buyer repaired it. Happens all the time, not just with airplanes.