Panel upgrading - Really, how bad?

[winrose46]

Installation of the Aspen 1000, L3 standby attitude gyro, PS 450 audio panel, (movement of the King 155 from my 172 to the bonanza) and the GTN 750 as just north of 60K. Part of the issue was converting the analog STEC 60-2 autopilot from analog to digital and having to send the 60-2 to the factory. I am still looking at 2K for a third attitude display (vacuum) in case all electricity is lost and the standby batteries die out.

 

[winrose46]

I addition to the cost, the integration can take longer than the installation. I went all electric and it took from August 18th until the first week in December to get everything the way I wanted it. Items were as mundane was changing mph to knots, calibrating a AOA, having a faulty SV database, having to replace a unit, and having instruments placed where I did not want them placed, and not to mention coupling the autopilot properly and learning how to fly an approach all over again.

 

[ircphoenix]

60k is twice the value of my plane. Ouch.

I am looking at replacing the audio panel. KMA24 is just not acceptable.

I also want to repaint and redo the interior... and WAAS my GPS and add a GTX345. So that all combined would probably be 80% of the value of my plane. *sigh*

 

[wilkersk]

Used KX-155 with GS, a KI-209, a used KLN94, an annunciate/switch package, an antenna duplexer and a nav antenna. It can all be installed with a 337. Get your Pitot-static test done, and viola! Should be well under $10,000. For moving map, I use my iPad with Foreflight. Its a full featured EFB with geo-located charts and procedures.

 

[weirdjim]

We just priced what you are asking. We have an Arrow with a 6 pack and no radios. Actually we have Terra radios but they are junk.
I can buy an experimental airplane, all of these radios non-certified, and install myself for less than this.

First of all, Terra made some of the best quality on the market. If you want to "junk" them let me know how much you want for your "junkers".

Second, there is no such thing as a "certified" radio and you CAN install them yourself ... with your friendly airframe mechanic doing the inspection.

JIm

 

[bnt83]

First of all, Terra made some of the best quality on the market. If you want to "junk" them let me know how much you want for your "junkers".

Second, there is no such thing as a "certified" radio and you CAN install them yourself ... with your friendly airframe mechanic doing the inspection.

JIm

That may have been true 30 years ago but rarely is anyone around here talking about anything other than $10k+ WAAS/LPV GPS navigators. Good luck buying any of these new radios when you tell the dealer its for a certified airplane, they stop talking pretty quick and tell you "we have to install it and can't sell it to you."

Assuming you do get them, then you still need approved installation data. The FAA will probably ask you if an STC exists that covers the make/model then likely deny your request for field approval. That pesky field approval job aid they have always points in the same direction.

Some folks have birds that need significant panel sheet metal work that would likely be very time consuming for them to do.

The knowledge and skills can be learned but getting passed dealer and FAA policies is a big PITA.

 

[Ryan F.]

You're looking at $12-15k all-in for your "basic" 430W package. An autopilot installation is quite expensive. Probably another $15-20k for that.

 

[Stewartb]

I can tell you a G3X Touch system with 2-axis AP and comm-ES txp will run you $20K if you have a pro do the pinning. That is not installed, though. My instrument shop says the equivalent in certified would top $50K. Yikes! I re-did my Skywagon panel a few years ago. No new radios but added digital engine instruments and new old-school flight instruments. That part of the reno was about $15K.

A buddy sold his 185 to build a Moose. Great performer. Probably the best performing floatplane I've ever seen. He's sure not sorry he switched.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

A buddy sold his 185 to build a Moose. Great performer. Probably the best performing floatplane I've ever seen. He's sure not sorry he switched.

I heard that Moose's have some serious structural deficiencies. Someone I know that built one said the tail nearly came off on their first flight so they hired an engineer to beef it up. He took a look at the plans and said the aircraft is VERY poorly designed. Murphy just scaled up their smaller planes into a Moose without doing any engineering work - but they look cool!

 

[Stewartb]

I call BS. If you want to talk to a very qualified guy who built one, get in touch.

 

[Ryan F.]

Used KX-155 with GS, a KI-209, a used KLN94, an annunciate/switch package, an antenna duplexer and a nav antenna. It can all be installed with a 337. Get your Pitot-static test done, and viola! Should be well under $10,000. For moving map, I use my iPad with Foreflight. Its a full featured EFB with geo-located charts and procedures.

Ironically that is precisely what I had in my airplane, and sold it when I upgraded to the GTN650+GTX345. I met the owner of the Mooney who bought and installed my old gear. It's quite a capable setup for an airplane which was non-IFR GPS prior to the upgrade.

The only real concern is buying a KLN-94 at this stage knowing that they're nearly unsupported by Bendix King now. Replacement screens are unavailable. If the screen dies, you will have to replace the unit. That was one of the reasons I upgraded.

 

[weirdjim]

Assuming you do get them, then you still need approved installation data. The FAA will probably ask you if an STC exists that covers the make/model then likely deny your request for field approval. That pesky field approval job aid they have always points in the same direction.

.

Jeezuz, Murphy. You don't tell the FAA what you want to do, you tell them what you did;. On 337. That doesn't even go to the local FSDO, but to Ok City to a GS-1 that reads that everybody signed it, and into the pile it goes.

Where have you been for twenty years?

Jim

 

[GRG55]

...A buddy sold his 185 to build a Moose. Great performer. Probably the best performing floatplane I've ever seen. He's sure not sorry he switched.

What engine did he install in it?

There's one flying off a private grass strip near here that has some sort of radial in it. Russian designed engine I understand. Turns the opposite direction and he had to get a prop from Italy to make it all work apparently. But I've seen it take off and it really performs.

 

[GRG55]

...Murphy just scaled up their smaller planes into a Moose without doing any engineering work - but they look cool!

Given how Transport Canada works, this is highly unlikely.
The E-AB community in Canada has a lot LESS latitude with what it can do than in the USA.

 

[Stewartb]

I think the distinction between Super Rebel and Moose is a flat engine vesus radial? Not sure but every Moose I've seen has the Russian radial. My friend flew his for a couple of years with one motor while Barrett juiced up a second engine. He had Whirl Wind make hollow composite blades for his prop hub, too. Seriously cool airplane!

 

[murphey]

***DISCLAIMER - I don't know jack shyte*** - but it seems like used 430's are in the $4-5000ish range (non-waas I think) plus whatever to install. I think.

The 400s are going for $2-3K, 400W are $4-5K and the 430W are in the $7-9K. For that kind of money, the GTN 625 (new version of GNS 400W) are retail at $8200 or so, but I've been quoted $7700 not including installation.

 

[Ryan F.]

The 400s are going for $2-3K, 400W are $4-5K and the 430W are in the $7-9K. For that kind of money, the GTN 625 (new version of GNS 400W) are retail at $8200 or so, but I've been quoted $7700 not including installation.

Initially I wanted a 430W to replace my KLN94 but it just didn't make sense given the price of a new GTN650. When a barely-owned 650 came available it was a no-brainer. The 430Ws carry a real price premium.

 

[murphey]

Initially I wanted a 430W to replace my KLN94 but it just didn't make sense given the price of a new GTN650. When a barely-owned 650 came available it was a no-brainer. The 430Ws carry a real price premium.

aHA! Did you win the 650 on ebay last week, the one I was bidding on too? I should have gone directly to the "buy now" option.

 

[Ryan F.]

aHA! Did you win the 650 on ebay last week, the one I was bidding on too? I should have gone directly to the "buy now" option.

No, it was all through the shop I was working with. They installed a 650, the guy decided the screen was too small and got a 750 instead. I got his 650. Still had the plastic screen protector on it for a couple thou less.

 

[murphey]

60k is twice the value of my plane. Ouch.

I am looking at replacing the audio panel. KMA24 is just not acceptable.

I also want to repaint and redo the interior... and WAAS my GPS and add a GTX345. So that all combined would probably be 80% of the value of my plane. *sigh*

Go for the PSE audio panel, do the interior yourself. I used Airtex back in 2011, did the side panels myself, had the local auto shop do the seats. Or pick out what fabrics you like and find a local auto shop that understands how to do seats. As for the repaint, my 45 yr old airplane will never be repainted, just not cost effective when you consider the GPS/ADSB runs the same price as a good paint job.

 

[donjohnston]

The 400s are going for $2-3K, 400W are $4-5K and the 430W are in the $7-9K. For that kind of money, the GTN 625 (new version of GNS 400W) are retail at $8200 or so, but I've been quoted $7700 not including installation.

Agreed. I was looking hard for a 400W a year ago. There weren't many and those I did find were $4,500 and up. I ended up with a brand new GTN625 for $5,000. Still getting used to the UI though.

 

[James331]

Installation of the Aspen 1000, L3 standby attitude gyro, PS 450 audio panel, (movement of the King 155 from my 172 to the bonanza) and the GTN 750 as just north of 60K. Part of the issue was converting the analog STEC 60-2 autopilot from analog to digital and having to send the 60-2 to the factory. I am still looking at 2K for a third attitude display (vacuum) in case all electricity is lost and the standby batteries die out.

3 attitude indicators in a Bo or a 172??

You know you as a pilot are way likley to fail before the two attitude indicators, I mean 3 in a single pilot light single, it's cool you're pouring money into the economy and all, but wow that's kinda spending money to spend money.

Infact your plane would probably be more likely to have engine issues related to a vac system failure than those two AIs failing, or even one digital AI with battery backup failing.

 

[murphey]

Agreed. I was looking hard for a 400W a year ago. There weren't many and those I did find were $4,500 and up. I ended up with a brand new GTN625 for $5,000. Still getting used to the UI though.

Where did you find a 625 that cheap!!!???

 

[ircphoenix]

Go for the PSE audio panel, do the interior yourself. I used Airtex back in 2011, did the side panels myself, had the local auto shop do the seats. Or pick out what fabrics you like and find a local auto shop that understands how to do seats. As for the repaint, my 45 yr old airplane will never be repainted, just not cost effective when you consider the GPS/ADSB runs the same price as a good paint job.

I think that's the plan. But I rent my plane out. Don't have a whole lot of time to accomplish the DIY Airtex. The PSE for sure... want to add 2 more intercom places and get rid of the separate intercom box/switch.

 

[murphey]

I think that's the plan. But I rent my plane out. Don't have a whole lot of time to accomplish the DIY Airtex. The PSE for sure... want to add 2 more intercom places and get rid of the separate intercom box/switch.

Auto shop that knows how to do the seats takes maybe 3 days. If you have someone close by that has done the interior panels before, the two of you can do the side panels in less than a week, just remember to clean the crap behind the old panels and put in new insulation. Back bulkhead comes already built, just install back there.

 

[ircphoenix]

Auto shop that knows how to do the seats takes maybe 3 days. If you have someone close by that has done the interior panels before, the two of you can do the side panels in less than a week, just remember to clean the crap behind the old panels and put in new insulation. Back bulkhead comes already built, just install back there.

All excellent advice. Thank you!

 

[murphey]

All excellent advice. Thank you!

Another option, if you don't want to go the Airtex route, is to take the existing side panels to the shop and use them as patterns. But since the airplane is a rental, I wouldn't go high-end. Turns out the Airtex materials I have from 2011 are now considered "premium" but when I got them, they weren't. Airtex customer support is fantastic. If you run into trouble with the installation, just call them. Best tools for the job are paper, pencil, carpet knife and an electrical carving knife you won't use in the kitchen again. I put in the closed cell insulation - definitely makes a difference both in sound and temps.

I didn't do the headliner because it's in excellent shape, but I did pull down front part of it to replace the 40 yr old insulation. Maybe next year I'll do the back half.

I should warn you....if there's no one who's done an interior before, and you are clueless, it could take a couple, three months. I did it while the engine was overhauled, so there wasn't a rush, and I was clueless. Wish I had called Dodd earlier for help.

 

[Salty]

As a new aircraft owner, I'm still struggling with why good avionics are so desired, but don't hold their value. So many people say they won't buy a plane that doesn't have the avionics they want - how does that not raise the value of planes with good avionics?

 

[GRG55]

As a new aircraft owner, I'm still struggling with why good avionics are so desired, but don't hold their value. So many people say they won't buy a plane that doesn't have the avionics they want - how does that not raise the value of planes with good avionics?

It does. But not by the same amount as it would cost to fit out that same panel with the same avionics brand new. Part of the problem is even if a panel is only a few years old, technology is allowing the introduction of numerous new features at a faster rate, and that airplane won't have them.

 

[winrose46]

The rule of thumb I use is the value of the plane is increased by 1/2 of the cost of newly installed avionics without any consideration of the installation cost.

 

[winrose46]

3 attitude indicators in a Bo or a 172??

You know you as a pilot are way likley to fail before the two attitude indicators, I mean 3 in a single pilot light single, it's cool you're pouring money into the economy and all, but wow that's kinda spending money to spend money.

Infact your plane would probably be more likely to have engine issues related to a vac system failure than those two AIs failing, or even one digital AI with battery backup failing.

I was not sure that I wanted to be limited on battery backup of 30 minutes. With the 3rd attitude gyro (vacuum) I do not have a time limit on an electrical failure. The money is not an issue. My son will take over the Bonanza and I do not want him to have any unexpected financial surprises. The more than $200K I have spent in the past 5 years has been well spent for a plane I have owned for more than 35 years. The only hurt is that I am only able to insure the "S model" for only $140K.

 

[James331]

I think by actually removing the complication and higher failure rate vac system, which is more likely to fail and feed bad info to your son, you'd actually have a safer plane.

 

[winrose46]

Being a wet pump and the suction gage and the vacuum pop-up red button are just to the left of the
Aspen it should be ok. In 35+ years of flying I have had 2 vacuum pump failures (both dry pumps). With the vacuum attitude gyro he will not have to worry about time after an alternator or battery failure.