Panel upgrade ? is it worth it ? Advice ??

Jeffgis12b

Jeffgis12b

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
104
Location
Liberty,Mo
Display Name
Display name:
Kenny
Lets start by explaining my current setup , i have a Piper warrioir with a basic IFR package- dual GS KX-155s,DME and outdated Northstar M3 GPS. It also has Piper Autocontroll IIIB (suppose to be same as century IIb autopilot). I have added the following portables, Skyguard TWX adsb in/out with AHRS, Ifly720 and Ipad mini with stratus II. I currently fly CC using the Ifly720 using the heading bug on my autopilot.

I have a friend selling a KLN94 and a KMD550 with XM - he also has a KX-165A but its 28V so wont work in my plane. I am looking at maybe having installed in my plane and I am told I can Couple it to my autopilot but would need a KA-52 to convert signal. Buying and installing the following would be between $7000-9500 total from what i have gathered from talking with two different avionics shops.

My plane is a very nice for a Warrior with great paint, new leather interior, new windows and a low time engine and prop.

My question, is it worth upgrading a plane thats total value is only around maybe 40-45k ? I am starting to work on my Instument and know the RNAV approach option would be nice but worth the cost , not sure?

Any advice ????
 
Someone else will probably chime in here but I think for that money you could probably get a garmin 430W put in.
 
You'll be real happy with the 94 & 550 until the first time you need an LPV approach...OTOH, if there's always an ILS around for you then the LPV ability won't be an issue.

At the end of the day, I'm with cowman - you can prolly get a used 430W installed for about $9,000 and have more approach capability with less screen real estate. GPSS steering will add about $3,000.
 
cowman said:
Someone else will probably chime in here but I think for that money you could probably get a garmin 430W put in.
Click to expand...

That, but a GNS430W will cost more than a KLN, for good reason.

Get a GNS430 or 530W, GPSS, maybe a update to a newer Stec, and you'll be good, rest is fluff
 
Is your outdated gps already wired to an indicator and the ap? So it won't be a problem with the kln. I did a low cost upgrade on the panel of my piper arrow, replacing a Garmin 100 :-( for a kln89. :)
Not luxury, but good enough for any approach except LPV and the cheapest way to add RNAV capability to the piper. For $7000.- and up I'd consider a GNS430W.
If money matters, keep your KX155, use your ipad for wx and just add an ifr gps!
 
I would consider a 430 w for your panel. Prices are coming down on the 430s. That's about all I would change ,unless your keeping the aircraft forever.
 
Another vote for a 430w. You'll spend the same amount and get much more for your AMU.
 
Buying a non-WAAS GPS (or non-upgradeable, at least) today just seems to be wasteful.
 
Unless the aircraft is a cream puff with a factory new motor I wouldn't do it. No way you will get 20-25% of the aircraft value back installing already end of life equipment. If the aircraft is truly tip top, then I would just buy a GTN650 for ~$10k. Then at least you are buying current technology.
 
cowman said:
Someone else will probably chime in here but I think for that money you could probably get a garmin 430W put in.
Click to expand...
Ditto -- and you'll be a lot happier with that 430W than a KLN94. The 94 is an OK unit, but limited in its abilities and significantly more complicated to use, including manual intervention for holds and course reversals. By the time you add in the installation costs, the 94 isn't going to be much less expensive than a used 430W, and it will give you a lot less for your money. Unless you intend to sell your plane within the next couple of years (in which case I'd say don't even bother with the 94), go for the 430W if you can afford it -- you won't regret that decision.
 
sorry to sound like a parrot, but I also agree with the 430W recommendations. Although I use the ipad for most of my flying, the WAAS is good to have. Even if you stay with the KLN94, it will be nice to have a certified GPS on board.
 
If your question is whether it is worth it to upgrade your panel, only you can determine that.

If your question is whether the configuration you described is worth it, I agree with what others have said; for similar, or only slightly money you could do better.

If it were me though, I would either go with a 530w, or one of the newer touch screen systems. Or do what I did; I sold my plane and bought a better plane. The difference in sales price and purchase price was what I would have spent upgrading but I got a much better, faster plane in the deal.
 
You guys that are suggesting the 430W, I see they are ~$5-7K on ebay. Why would you spend the money to install a gps that is going to be end of life soon? The delta between it and a GTN650 is a couple of grand.
 
Alexb2000 said:
You guys that are suggesting the 430W, I see they are ~$5-7K on ebay. Why would you spend the money to install a gps that is going to be end of life soon? The delta between it and a GTN650 is a couple of grand.
Click to expand...

really?
 
Alexb2000 said:
You guys that are suggesting the 430W, I see they are ~$5-7K on ebay. Why would you spend the money to install a gps that is going to be end of life soon? The delta between it and a GTN650 is a couple of grand.
Click to expand...

Because you can +$2K yourself to ridiculous amounts of money.

To the OP: If you're asking will I increase the value of my plane enough to make the upgrade worthwhile? (As in money value.) The answer is no. If you're asking will the increased capability be worth it to me? Only you can answer that. I will say that I'm hesitant to restart my IR training in a plane without GPS approach capability because that's where the airspace is going. I do think the 430W vs KLN94 is worth investigating.

John
 
Alexb2000 said:
You guys that are suggesting the 430W, I see they are ~$5-7K on ebay. Why would you spend the money to install a gps that is going to be end of life soon? The delta between it and a GTN650 is a couple of grand.
Click to expand...

Thats what I faced when I updated my panel. I thought I was going to save some money by installing a used 430W. I ended up going with a GTN 650 anjd I am very glad that I did. I like the interface of the 650 better, its new and has a warranty. I have never had an issue with the touch screen in turbulence and it has a knob if you prefer to work that way.

One fear I had going with the 430W route was how long will Garmin suport the 430W?
 
If you're on a budget, a KLN-94 is about 30% of the price of a used 430W. Our club got one installed for ~$2400 in our Cardinal, replacing an 89b. I doubt if there is much delta between a greenfield installation of a 94 or a 430w, so the ratio applies.

We moved the 89b to a VFR installation in our Warrior. After a long discussion (28 pilots!) we elected to retire the Warrior's 89b and replace it with a new GTN650 and an Stec20.

My advice: On a budget: get a KLN-94, a Stratus, and an iPad. All you really give up is 100 feet of DA.

If you have enough money to buy a used 430W, then save up another couple of months and buy a new GTN650.

Picking the GTN650 over a used 430W was really no-brainer for us, once we started talking to shops in our area. The 650 is only a couple thousand dollars more than the overpriced used 430Ws we could find, and its decades newer technology.

The 650 is STC'd for just about everything made since the Wright Flyer, so no intermateable wait for the FSDO (don't get me started!).

The new 650/used 430W delta is about the same cost as fixing a bad rocker switch on a 430W.

We just had to replace a data card on our Archer's 430W - $212 for a 16M card. The 650 uses SD cards you can buy at the drug store.

At one level, this Warrior upgrade was insane, since this ~$20K upgrade is not that much less than a new motor, and represents a huge fraction of the resale value of the Warrior.

On the other hand, we like our Warrior, have no plans to sell it, and most of the members are techies who like shiney things. :)
 
Last edited:
Remember, with the Garmin 430W you get a navcom, so you can ditch one of the kx-155s and sell it for at least a grand.
 
Brad Z said:
Remember, with the Garmin 430W you get a navcom, so you can ditch one of the kx-155s and sell it for at least a grand.
Click to expand...

just asking "what-ifs" at the avionics shop. The owner said my KX-155 with GS would fetch around 1400. Unfortunately, the CDI is an older King unit that wasn't compatible with newer radios.
 
Start asking for quotes to install a 430W. Ask different shops to quote the GTN650, they will be so close it won't make sense not to buy the latest and greatest.


This is coming from a guy that buys two generation old cellphones and is still flying with an iPad 2.
 
The GNS will shoot every approach the GTN can shoot BTW.

I would hardly say its at the end of it's life, Garmin still has plenty of parts and support for the GNS series.

Also believe it or not, newer ain't always better, quite a few pilots prefer the GNS line over the touh screen GTNs, myself being one of them, and someone who happens to fly behind two 530s for a living.
 
I think it's completely worth the cost to upgrade your panel.






To the next guy that buys the plane.
 
James331 said:
The GNS will shoot every approach the GTN can shoot BTW.

I would hardly say its at the end of it's life, Garmin still has plenty of parts and support for the GNS series.

Also believe it or not, newer ain't always better, quite a few pilots prefer the GNS line over the touh screen GTNs, myself being one of them, and someone who happens to fly behind two 530s for a living.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you that the GNS will shoot all of the same approaches as a GTN. I think the point is that the price difference between the two units isnt much when you are doing an upgrade like this. If there had been a bigger difference between the GNS and GTN, then I would have probably gone with the GNS.

Another factor as you mentioned is personal preference. With that in mind, it really doesnt matter what the price difference is, buy the one you want and enjoy flying with it. They are both very capable units. I have flown with with both, I like the GTN interface better. I like the ability to easily add victor airways as well.

I did get a chance to see a Avidyne unit in action in a king air the other day. I didnt get to spend enough time with it to have made a preference, but I will say if they had been available when I was looking at the GTN's, it would have probably come down to price.
 
From a purely support perspective, the newer box will get updates longer than the older one. At some point, Garmin like all other vendors will kill off updates for older products, just to force people to buy new.

It may be 2 years, or 5, or 10 but it will happen. Newer may not be technically better, but it is more supportable.
 
docmirror said:
From a purely support perspective, the newer box will get updates longer than the older one. At some point, Garmin like all other vendors will kill off updates for older products, just to force people to buy new.

It may be 2 years, or 5, or 10 but it will happen. Newer may not be technically better, but it is more supportable.
Click to expand...

We haven't installed a Garmin update... Ever. It's not like updates on iOS or something lol

Jeppesen nav updates are the important ones, and as long as people want them, Jepp will support the GNS series, they could care less what box you own as long as you buy their subscription.



On a factual standpoint, go fly a plane with easy, one of the selling points for me is having the knobs for both turbulence and muscle memory.
I can dial up the nearest airport, change nav to direct said airport, all without ever looking at the box.

The ONLY real draw back for me, the lack of being able to put a airway in, not the end of the world, I just put the airway into foreflight and get two waypoint, not the end of the world, just a extra couple seconds. That said, I rarely ever get a airway, typically it's direct to, to a waypoint for the IAP or SID/STAR, etc.
 
Last edited:
Also when factoring in installation cost, do not forget to add a buffer of a few thousand because shops always underestimate the quote (to win bids) and end up charging a lot more in the end (because there is always something else wrong behind the panel).
Just a forewarning from experience.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top