Pa-28-181 rear seat removal

cowman

cowman

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I found this in my POH. Does this mean I can pop out the rear seats and fly without getting a new weight&balance done by an a&p?

7.14 CABIN FEATURES
For ease of entry and exit and pilot-passenger comfort, the front seats are adjustable fore and aft. The rear
seats may be removed to provide room for bulky items. Rear seat installations incorporate leg retainers
with latching mechanisms that must be released before the rear seats can be removed. Releasing the
retainers is accomplished on earlier models by turning the latching mechanism 90 degrees with a coin or
screwdriver. Releasing the retainers is accomplished on later models by depressing the plunger behind
each rear leg. Armrests are also provided to the front seats. All seats are available with optional headrests
and optional vertical adjustment may be added to the front seats.
Click to expand...
 
only if the TCDS has a paragraph or line item allowing it.

trust me, it's NOT easy to get the back bench seat out and even more difficult to re-install it. if you have the two bucket seats in the back, I think there's an STC, but that may merely be my foggy brain.
 
I removed them during the annual. It's actually incredibly easy on mine, exactly as described in the quoted text, you push a little plunger in and they slide back a little and pop right out. No tools and under a minute to do it.
 
Yes you can legally remove the rear seats. Doing so puts the airplane in the Utility category. It's in the TCDS.
 
Very easy to do in the Dakota as well (bucket seats). The hardest part is it takes two hands to push the plunger and some tricky wiggling and finger gripping to slide them back over the plunger. With a helper to bump them back (carefully and gently, lest they bite the fingers!) they come out in seconds.
 
Silvaire said:
Yes you can legally remove the rear seats. Doing so puts the airplane in the Utility category. It's in the TCDS.
Click to expand...

The question wasn't whether you could legally fly without the back seat installed. There is no question that it is in fact legal to do so.

The question was whether on not a new weight and balance was necessary. Some accounting for the weight and balance change is necessary, whether it is in the form of new weight and balance paperwork or provisions in the TCDS or some other legal form.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Does the POH provide the appropriate weight and balance information?
Click to expand...

Not that I see anywhere. I'm sure I could just weigh the seats and recalculate everything since I already have the rear seat arm and that the actually difference will be negligible anyway.... but from what I'm seeing in responses and what I sort of expected probably not legal.
 
TCDS info...
No. of Seats Normal Category: 4 (2 at +80.5, 2 at +118.1)
Utility Category: 2 (2 at +80.5)
Click to expand...

Still nothing about weight.....
 
I see the point now.

TCDS 2A13 items XV -A for Archer II and XV - B for Archer III both list the aircraft as 4 PCLM (Normal Category) and 2 PCLM (Utility Category) and under Center of Gravity Range does list data for both Normal and Utility categories. It also has two listings in the No. of Seats field.

So to answer the question I believe these two categories can be addressed on a single W&B document and furthermore, since no actual modifications are being done to the aircraft, there is no need for a logbook entry and no need for an A&P. There is nothing wrong with an owner calculating and printing a new W&B sheet when nothing on the aircraft has been altered. But first take a close look at your existing W&B document - it may already be there.
 
Silvaire said:
So to answer the question I believe these two categories can be addressed on a single W&B document and furthermore, since no actual modifications are being done to the aircraft, there is no need for a logbook entry and no need for an A&P. There is nothing wrong with an owner calculating and printing a new W&B sheet when nothing on the aircraft has been altered. But first take a close look at your existing W&B document - it may already be there.
Click to expand...

I agree with this approach. If the TC (and POH for that matter) have removing the seats as an approved configuration, then there should be no need for a new W&B. The PIC can use a negative number in the W&B calculation just like if they were adding bodies to the seat.
 
If you have the original W&B listing from the factory you should have a balance position and a weight of the seat . . .

what you do is then make a 'No Rear Seat" W&B, bring it to an A&P, who will sign off on it - and when you take the seat out you simply use THAT W&B - but you have to be careful to put the stuff where there is a W&B station you can use or you are going to have measure it yourself . . . . keeping in mind the weight limits at each station . . .
 
Again - an A&P does not sign a W&B document. He would sign a logbook entry if the W&B were being superseded due to a modification but in this case there would be no need for an A&P because you couldn't have a pilot's license if you didn't know how to do these calculations. You'd have to weigh the rear seats and I can tell you those pop-outs in the Archer can't be more than a couple of pounds each, they are really light.

The maximum baggage weight of 200 lbs does not change when going to utility category. As stated in the POH, removal of the rear seats is for accommodating bulky cargo items and your max GW is actually reduced in this category.
 
You shouldn't need any new W/B form from the A/P. All you need to do is calculated the effect of removal of the seats in each and every flight's weight and balance. The weights and reference ( arm) to the CG should be in the original operating manual


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Silvaire said:
Again - an A&P does not sign a W&B document. He would sign a logbook entry if the W&B were being superseded due to a modification but in this case there would be no need for an A&P because you couldn't have a pilot's license if you didn't know how to do these calculations. You'd have to weigh the rear seats and I can tell you those pop-outs in the Archer can't be more than a couple of pounds each, they are really light.

The maximum baggage weight of 200 lbs does not change when going to utility category. As stated in the POH, removal of the rear seats is for accommodating bulky cargo items and your max GW is actually reduced in this category.
Click to expand...

You take the W&B document and you put it in the logbook. You generally do not create the entry inside the logbook . . .

That said - you need to read your POH about the consequences of operating in utility category if you choose to operate in that category.

My Comanche does not have a utility category so I don't have to worry about that - whether the POH of a Cherokee 160/180 requires use of utility category is an open question with the older airplanes. . .
 
comanchepilot said:
You take the W&B document and you put it in the logbook. You generally do not create the entry inside the logbook . .
Click to expand...

The W&B document is required to be on board the aircraft (part of ARROW) The log book entry I am speaking of would be for an alteration or modification that caused the existing W&B document to be superseded. In this case there is none so the easiest way to deal with it is to print up a new W&B document with two sections - one for Normal and one for Utility category. This can be done by the owner, no need for an A&P but, as I said earlier, check the existing W&B document because it may already be in that format.
 
Silvaire said:
The W&B document is required to be on board the aircraft (part of ARROW)
Click to expand...
THis is an oft repeated piece of bull poop. There's no regulation that directly requires W to present. This was a case of someone coming up with a great mnemonic decades ago.

If you are required to have W&B paperwork in the plane, it is because it's strictly required by the "O" part.

Further there's a lot of other misinformation here. The TCDS comments about the utillity category have *SQUAT* to do with removing seats. To my knowledge, no aircraft can operate in the utility category with 4 people on board. You don't have to remove the seats to operate in that category, you just can't put any butts in them.
 
Pull the seat, adjust your W&B calculation for the seat, end of story.
 
When I weigh an airplane I like to weigh each seat too and note findings on the report. Makes it easy to adjust the configuration that way.
 
gkainz said:
Very easy to do in the Dakota as well (bucket seats). The hardest part is it takes two hands to push the plunger and some tricky wiggling and finger gripping to slide them back over the plunger. With a helper to bump them back (carefully and gently, lest they bite the fingers!) they come out in seconds.
Click to expand...

I can get just enough twist in mine to nudge it over one release button then the other. Piece of cake. And yes I had the finger bitten a couple times before I figured it all out.
 
tmyers said:
I can get just enough twist in mine to nudge it over one release button then the other. Piece of cake. And yes I had the finger bitten a couple times before I figured it all out.
Click to expand...

Yup, pretty quick and easy. Use a thin screwdriver and don't expose the digits to damage.
 
Don't give away all the secrets, let them get a couple blood blisters, it builds character.
 
Blood blisters - worst case you get one of these. It's handier than it looks :D

 
Yeah Yeah, show off.

All kidding aside I know you can get blisters and sores elsewhere with that thing.

I like the fact that you are a lemonade kind of guy.

When you gonna head east in your Cardinal and visit Ohio????
 
tmyers said:
Yeah Yeah, show off.

All kidding aside I know you can get blisters and sores elsewhere with that thing.

I like the fact that you are a lemonade kind of guy.

When you gonna head east in your Cardinal and visit Ohio????
Click to expand...

Was hoping to fly coast to coast August/September but looks like it ain't happening. I think this year I'll work on an instrument rating to prep for a coast to coast flight next year.

I ended up installing a fuel flow this year and working on fixing the nose wheel fairing attach holes. Building a rig to haul mogas etc etc. Need to get a good website built and a pile of other stuff done too. 177B owner's annual coming up in October with a new fuel flow instrument request. I never seem to run out of projects.

My co-author Lisa has been battling vision loss too which is particularly troubling. I don't really want to drag her across the USA in a SEP if she can't really see. :(



 
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