RotorAndWing
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Rotor&Wing
It's not "test flights", it's proving runs. All covered in the 8900.1.
Owner/Operator
- Thread starter Billnye
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It's not "test flights", it's proving runs. All covered in the 8900.1.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Not really. If folks were only driven by lawsuits, like you suggest, they'd have to pass laws to reign in the risk-takers... and Buddy Holly would still be alive today.
dtuuri
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
You are welcome to put your loved ones on unregulated charters. I'm not quite as confident about them and I certainly wouldn't recommend the typical passenger or shipper of important goods select one based on general lay knowledge of aviation.
This "over the top" thing isn't aviation-specific, it is very similar to the sale of liquor licenses along with a business (or the business' assets) in most states.
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Billnye
Filing Flight Plan
Wow. I did not think I would get as much feedback as I did - Thank you all very much!!
This thread is a bit old but if I can, let me clarify a bit more. As I mentioned before we're looking to split up costs in the most logical and cost effective way possible. We’re not opposed to dry leasing, renting or chartering but it sounds like a bit of a nightmare.
It would more so be used for business, friends and family.
On the higher end (way higher end), a King Air would be great. Something a little more reasonable would be a Pilatus. On the "lower" end, maybe a TBM or Piper?
After brainstorming with everyone, we've been trying to figure out a 'creative' way to make things work. We're thinking about starting a company and having a 'company plane'. Then, rather than charter the plane out, have friends, family, others come in and 'buy into' the company for flight time and reserve certain times. I’m not sure if this falls under 135 but it wouldn’t necessarily be “for charter” (would it?).
For instance, Joe could buy into ‘the company’ for $2k and have 10 hours per year given to him.
My father has a group of friends that ‘buy into’ a plane and reserve hours, however I believe it is under part 135 as a charter company takes care of all of the details.
Not sure if this is legal or if it even makes sense but would love to get any more feedback from those that have dealt with this.
This thread is a bit old but if I can, let me clarify a bit more. As I mentioned before we're looking to split up costs in the most logical and cost effective way possible. We’re not opposed to dry leasing, renting or chartering but it sounds like a bit of a nightmare.
It would more so be used for business, friends and family.
On the higher end (way higher end), a King Air would be great. Something a little more reasonable would be a Pilatus. On the "lower" end, maybe a TBM or Piper?
After brainstorming with everyone, we've been trying to figure out a 'creative' way to make things work. We're thinking about starting a company and having a 'company plane'. Then, rather than charter the plane out, have friends, family, others come in and 'buy into' the company for flight time and reserve certain times. I’m not sure if this falls under 135 but it wouldn’t necessarily be “for charter” (would it?).
For instance, Joe could buy into ‘the company’ for $2k and have 10 hours per year given to him.
My father has a group of friends that ‘buy into’ a plane and reserve hours, however I believe it is under part 135 as a charter company takes care of all of the details.
Not sure if this is legal or if it even makes sense but would love to get any more feedback from those that have dealt with this.
Mason
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Mase
Sounds a lot like Fractional Aircraft Ownership
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
A significant (but not the only) part of the "nightmare" you refer to in keeping this in Part 91 is setting things up so that each owner/lessee/renter has what the FAA refers to as "operational control" of the aircraft when they use it, including, among other things, the right to choose the pilots.
Just for illustration (and over-simplification), the typical sharing of an aircraft by 4 pilots by setting up an ownership LLC rarely raises problems because each human flies the aircraft. Change that into a group of 3 non-pilots and one pilot who flies them around, and one starts getting into "flight company" issues - the members as paying passengers of a company providing transportation - essentially private charter requiring an oparating certificate.
If your group is looking at multiple aircraft, fractional ownership, mentioned by @Mason, is also a possibility, but that, like Part 135 and operation of "large" aircraft, is subject to specific FAA regulations.
Threading a path and putting the agreements together to navigate through the potential regulatory minefield is how transactional aviation lawyers and aircraft ownership management professionals earn their keep.
For a group looking at a TBM as a possible "lower end" purchase, I would think a consult with one of those to explore the various paths would be high on your list of priorities.
Just for illustration (and over-simplification), the typical sharing of an aircraft by 4 pilots by setting up an ownership LLC rarely raises problems because each human flies the aircraft. Change that into a group of 3 non-pilots and one pilot who flies them around, and one starts getting into "flight company" issues - the members as paying passengers of a company providing transportation - essentially private charter requiring an oparating certificate.
If your group is looking at multiple aircraft, fractional ownership, mentioned by @Mason, is also a possibility, but that, like Part 135 and operation of "large" aircraft, is subject to specific FAA regulations.
Threading a path and putting the agreements together to navigate through the potential regulatory minefield is how transactional aviation lawyers and aircraft ownership management professionals earn their keep.
For a group looking at a TBM as a possible "lower end" purchase, I would think a consult with one of those to explore the various paths would be high on your list of priorities.
We've had the Pilatypuses show up on our field (3000' of grass). Pretty slick.
Tarheelpilot
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First of all there is nothing low end about a Pilatus. It is only a few knots slower than a b-200 King air, has a bigger cabin and is often much more expensive depending on what year model King air you compare.
As midlife stated a big issue with what you are talking about is operational control. I have flown several aircraft over the years that were owned and operated in similar circumstances to what you describe.
There has to be a written lease when a non owner is using the airplane. The lease has to specifically address transfer of operational control to the person or entity leasing the aircraft. Putting limitations on the lease in regards to who can fly the aircraft andflight notification/flight release procedures could nullify written transfer of operational control. As an example. You own the aircraft and you have an issue with local commercial pilot bob. Your non owner cousin loves bob. You can't lease the plane to your cousin and tell him he can't hire bob because while your cousin is leasing the aircraft he has operational control. Essentially he is the owner while he is leasing.
In practice what happens is you have written leases with each party on your list of "customers" in the airplane. There is also a lease log that tracks operational control so when each lease transaction takes place it is logged along with signatures of the parties involved in the transfer. If you're ever ramp checked by a fed the paperwork needs to be present and correct. Otherwise some one is getting busted for illegal 135 ops. The hammer normally falls the hardest on the pilot operating the flight.
Most of the properly administrated leasing arrangements I have been involved with were administered by an aircraft management company that in most cases also had a 135 certificate. The aircraft was bonded through the management companies fleet policy. People leasing could hire any pilot they wanted as long as they were able to meet fleet insurance requirements of the management company. Also how the pilot is paid is important. You want the pilot paid by the person with operational control.
Holding out is also a big no no. That's FAA speak for advertising. If your neighbor knows you have the aircraft and inquires as to using it for a trip that's ok. If you tell your neighbor you have the aircraft, it's available to lease and you give him the phone number to the lease manager you just crossed the line into 135 ops.
In short it can be done but there are rules. I don't recommend it unless you get help from someone familiar with the process. With proper management and a short list of trusted people to lease it can work. Otherwise not so much.
As midlife stated a big issue with what you are talking about is operational control. I have flown several aircraft over the years that were owned and operated in similar circumstances to what you describe.
There has to be a written lease when a non owner is using the airplane. The lease has to specifically address transfer of operational control to the person or entity leasing the aircraft. Putting limitations on the lease in regards to who can fly the aircraft andflight notification/flight release procedures could nullify written transfer of operational control. As an example. You own the aircraft and you have an issue with local commercial pilot bob. Your non owner cousin loves bob. You can't lease the plane to your cousin and tell him he can't hire bob because while your cousin is leasing the aircraft he has operational control. Essentially he is the owner while he is leasing.
In practice what happens is you have written leases with each party on your list of "customers" in the airplane. There is also a lease log that tracks operational control so when each lease transaction takes place it is logged along with signatures of the parties involved in the transfer. If you're ever ramp checked by a fed the paperwork needs to be present and correct. Otherwise some one is getting busted for illegal 135 ops. The hammer normally falls the hardest on the pilot operating the flight.
Most of the properly administrated leasing arrangements I have been involved with were administered by an aircraft management company that in most cases also had a 135 certificate. The aircraft was bonded through the management companies fleet policy. People leasing could hire any pilot they wanted as long as they were able to meet fleet insurance requirements of the management company. Also how the pilot is paid is important. You want the pilot paid by the person with operational control.
Holding out is also a big no no. That's FAA speak for advertising. If your neighbor knows you have the aircraft and inquires as to using it for a trip that's ok. If you tell your neighbor you have the aircraft, it's available to lease and you give him the phone number to the lease manager you just crossed the line into 135 ops.
In short it can be done but there are rules. I don't recommend it unless you get help from someone familiar with the process. With proper management and a short list of trusted people to lease it can work. Otherwise not so much.
I am involved in a lawsuit right now where that was the exact relationship. The aircraft was owned by an LLC. The LLC dry leased it to the 135 certificate holder. Then the pilot owner of the LLC was the pilot that flew the aircraft. The FAA mandates that if you do lease the aircraft to a 135, it must be a DRY LEASE, which means among other things, that it not include the pilot, and that the 135 operator at all times has the right to select the pilot. Otherwise, the owner must have a 135 certificate itself. Expect that you will have to pay a substantial conformity inspection fee to put the aircraft under their 135 certificate, management fees, costs for the pilot (and if required, a co-pilot), and to pay all expenses. In short, don't expect to make much, if any money doing so.
Tarheelpilot
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That's something I forgot to mention.... Leasing costs have to be reasonable. As an example the King air I flew had a rate determined by the owners cpa. It was essentially cost. No profit. He used the leases to generate cash flow to offset his near term Capitol outlay for having the airplane.
If you want to make profit it's time to get a 135. Or you could sign it over on long term lease to one individual but then what's the point? You couldn't use the plane.
The lease I have seen allows the LLC to still use the aircraft for it's own personal use. It just has to give sufficient notice to the 135 Operator. If the aircraft has been booked to a customer and the LLC still wants to use it anyway, then the LLC has to pay for arrangements for an alternate aircraft for the paying customer.
Tarheelpilot
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Ppc1052 mentioned conformity if you are looking at 135. That is a big consideration when purchasing.
Let's look at two aircraft of the same type. One is currently operated on a 135 certificate but needs a panel upgrade and the engine is due for a hot section in the near term. The second airplane has never been on a certificate but has just been through a panel upgrade with all the bells and whistles plus fresh engines and props.
If you're going to go on a 135 certificate it would likely be cheaper to buy the aircraft already on the certificate and upgrade than buying the upgraded aircraft and conforming.
If you're considering 135 I would identify the operator now and involve their director of maintenance in the purchase process. That could save you a bunch of money downstream
Let's look at two aircraft of the same type. One is currently operated on a 135 certificate but needs a panel upgrade and the engine is due for a hot section in the near term. The second airplane has never been on a certificate but has just been through a panel upgrade with all the bells and whistles plus fresh engines and props.
If you're going to go on a 135 certificate it would likely be cheaper to buy the aircraft already on the certificate and upgrade than buying the upgraded aircraft and conforming.
If you're considering 135 I would identify the operator now and involve their director of maintenance in the purchase process. That could save you a bunch of money downstream
You can give 25 mile scenic flights that land where you took off on Part 91. You need commercial rating and drug testing and 100 hours. You can do instruction under part 91. You need a CFI. Insurance is always the hard one there. You can tow gliders or fly parachute jumpers. Need Commercial for that one and Im not sure what else. Probably 100 hours too. You can tow banners and do pipeline patrol under part 91.
135 Charter where you carry passengers is sometimes done. VFR only restriction makes it simpler. You see that up in Alaska a bit. If you start flying IFR you will run into a lot of obstacles. Carrying freight only is quite a bit easier,but still takes a 135 cert. Someone has bought a Cessna 206, got a 135 cert, parked it in the freight area with a sign on it "available for freight hauling" and a phone number and got started that way.
You need at least 2nd class medicals for most of this stuff too.
For most, instruction is the one that works the best. The others take a lot more investment.
135 Charter where you carry passengers is sometimes done. VFR only restriction makes it simpler. You see that up in Alaska a bit. If you start flying IFR you will run into a lot of obstacles. Carrying freight only is quite a bit easier,but still takes a 135 cert. Someone has bought a Cessna 206, got a 135 cert, parked it in the freight area with a sign on it "available for freight hauling" and a phone number and got started that way.
You need at least 2nd class medicals for most of this stuff too.
For most, instruction is the one that works the best. The others take a lot more investment.
Tarheelpilot
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That is true. However when I have worked those 91 flights for the owner the aircraft was still under the operational control of the 135 operator. The pilots were employees of the 135. Owners still had to pay to fly just not the full retail rate since they owned the aircraft. I was involved with crewing one plane where the owner didn't understand the operational control requirements and finally took the plane off their certificate because he felt like he was getting a raw deal. Came back a year later when the only change with the new 135 company was his airplane flew less revenue hours. The hassle of dealing with the 135 having operational control of the airframe didn't change since it's required to be on the air carrier certificate.