I'm looking around for Cessna 182 as I finish flight training. Seems like every post in reference to buying a plane warns about the "first annual", which will be the expensive one. What is different about the first annual I will get when I buy a plane vs. the annual the plane had the year prior with the previous owner? (assuming a good pre -buy inspection). If the licensed A/P has done a good annual prior to purchase, why would the next one be so much more expensive. It is the discrepancies that are not airworthiness issues that the seller chooses not to fix prior to sale?
Owner annual vs. buyer annual. What gives?
- Thread starter jhoyt
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You are referring to the presumption that, when you buy a plane, the previous owner will have skimped on maintenance and slid by with barely-adequate annuals such that your first will (with your presumably-noble and higher standards) be very costly, with much dinero expended on fixing deferred items.
It can also have effect based upon the often-extant reality of an IA, upon first inspection, applying very conservative standards to the inspection, because (1) he or she does not know the airplane well, and (2) he or she does not know YOU well. Butt-covering (and understandable).
This is why some prefer to use an annual as a pre-buy.
It can also have effect based upon the often-extant reality of an IA, upon first inspection, applying very conservative standards to the inspection, because (1) he or she does not know the airplane well, and (2) he or she does not know YOU well. Butt-covering (and understandable).
This is why some prefer to use an annual as a pre-buy.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
Opinions of airworthiness of the next A&P-IA.
"OMG that chipped paint must be fixed prior to my sign off" type stuff.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well, often times if the owner knows they will sell it soon, they are more likely to defer things. Also, many sellers are selling because they can't afford the upkeep....so just because it is 'in annual' doesn't mean it is going to meet your criteria as a buyer.
There are a few ways to look at it and many differences of opinion on the subject, but in my experience the best pre-buy inspection is an annual inspection done by an independent IA (preferably your own). If you use an annual inspection as your pre-buy, you have a much better idea of what your getting into vs some of the cursory pre-purchase inspections that are often done.
Perfect example was my Baron - I had my personal IA do a full annual inspection (even though the seller had one down 4 months earlier). The airplane was in good shape and for the most part perfectly airworthy, but there were a few items that had been deferred and I wanted to get ahead of things so I wasn't faced with a huge bill down the road. Inspection was something around $3k (fairly typical for a piston twin in that area) and after the sale, I spent an additional $7k to get it where I wanted it before I flew it home. So, first annual was $10k. One year later, the next annual was less than $4k (inspection and correcting discrepancies) once everything was said and done.
Contrast that with my first airplane purchase (Cessna 170) where I did an abbreviated 'pre-buy' inspection and had to deal with a lot of surprise additional maintenance expenses after the fact.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Different mechanics have different priorities and different interpretations of airworthy parts and components. An outgoing airplane may be certified as airworthy while the new mechanic represents the new owner and is expected to scrutinize an airplane more thoroughly. I always advise prospective owners to have their own mechanic do a thorough annual instead of a cursory "pre-Purchase" inspection. Identify the deficiencies as you see them and negotiate a cure with the seller. Buying your mechanic an airline ticket and a motel for a day or two is a good practice when moving toward buying a plane.
Bringing your mechanic to a remote /different airport to do a ( thorough annual) without all his tools, jacks, etc etc... is not realistic.. IMHO...
Stewartb
Final Approach
An annual inspection doesn't take much. Repairs might but since it wouldn't be my plane yet I couldn't authorize repairs. if you think a drive-by pre-buy suits you, go for it.
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
Do not...do not trust anyone else's mechanic other than one you personally hire and know. Do not use the sellers mechanic! EVER! pay to have your man go over it carefully. If the seller and mechanic are " buddy's" as they were concerning the Stearman I bought, you will pay dearly for this mistake. There are lousy mechanics out there for aircraft just as there are for cars. Caveat emptor!
Which is exactly why I made my post... There is not a snowballs chance in hell of you showing up at a airport where the plane is located and have ANY cooperation from the seller and his mechanic.. And without a shop to do a "thorough annual", you don't have access to an air compressor for the compression tests, jacks to cycle the gear if it is a retract, etc etc etc...
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
meh....have your mechanic call and talk with his mechanic. You'd be surprised what you'll learn with very little cost. Then if it still looks fine after that conversation....have a shop near by, not familiar with the aircraft, do an annual.
The issue is not airworthiness. You will be purchasing an airworthy aircraft.....but an airworthy aircraft and a well maintained aircraft can be two different things.
The issue is not airworthiness. You will be purchasing an airworthy aircraft.....but an airworthy aircraft and a well maintained aircraft can be two different things.
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Jimmy cooper
En-Route
And what, pray tell , will " his mechanic tell your mechanic"???!!!! Something bad? I think not. He will probably give a glowing report as its to his advantage. Trust no one. Do your homework. Most aircraft are now getting very old and many have been run hard, hung up wet.
CharlieTango
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Doesn't the annual take the aircraft out of service and doesn't it remain there until non-airworthy issues are resolved?
I don't see how a buyer can have a shop do an annual.
N747JB
Final Approach
I think the best case is to use you're own mechanic for the pre-buy/annual inspection, next best is a shop that is independent of the seller and the mechanic that maintains it now. I have done it several different ways when buying and selling. When I bought my 421 it was due for an annual in a month, I split the annual cost with the seller and he picked up all the squawks at his shop. They did a great job and with the exception of some hoses that I ended up replacing, the hoses were much less than flying my guy to Illinois. When I sold it, I was having an annual done and the buyer just paid me and I paid for the annual when it was finished. But, it was a very nice clean airplane that was always maintained to a very high standard. My 182 was purchased as is, I did a quick pre-buy, one day, found a few minor issues and paid the guy.
If it's a good airplane, you are getting peace of mind,
if it's a bad one, you could be saving yourself from a real headache!!
When I sold it, I was having an annual done and the buyer just paid me and I paid for the annual when it was finished. But, it was a very nice clean airplane that was always maintained to a very high standard. My 182 was purchased as is, I did a quick pre-buy, one day, found a few minor issues and paid the guy. If it's a good airplane, you are getting peace of mind,
if it's a bad one, you could be saving yourself from a real headache!!
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well....how often is it flown? What's the area of most concern for this aircraft? What was the last major work you did on this aircraft? What condition would you say it's in? Does it have any corrosion? Does it use oil? Did you borescope the cylinders?....how'd everything look and what did you find? (notice I didn't ask about compressions....) Does the owner spend alot on maintenance? How much work does the owner perform?
Based on his response....one can get a fairly good idea of the condition of the aircraft...and whether the mechanic is a BS'r.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
no....calender time will take the aircraft out of annual. If non-airworthy items are found it can be released with a list and the owner can have another A&P return it to service addressing the discrepancies.
BTW.....I'm also an A&P/IA.
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Jimmy cooper
En-Route
My Stearman, purchased by the way in maryland, had a broken wing spar when I bought it. The mechanics " annual" lasted 3 hours , " as he was familiar with the aircraft he said" he lied and had to have known about the spar. I was present while he "annualed it" and took his word for the airplanes condition. My fault! The mechanic I knew well was two hours away. I should have called him, but " wanted to save money !" Real dumb.
John Collins
En-Route
There is a distinction between the objectives of an annual and the objectives of a pre purchase inspection, although many portions overlap. When I have a pre purchase examination performed, I am trying to determine if there are maintenance gotcha's that will adversely affect my or my customer's decision to purchase the aircraft or leave the new owner with expensive repairs. My expertise is mostly with Beech aircraft and one thing I always want performed on certain Bonanzas is the Spar Carry thru AD inspection, regardless if it is due or not. There are many other such examples that from previous experience are not covered on an annual, but may end up with extensive maintenance expenses. A borescope of the engine may not be called for on an annual, but I am going to have one performed. Torque on thru bolts for a TCM engine that has had cylinder work is not checked on an annual, but I will have them spot checked. Overhaul of components such as gear and flap motors do not need to be accomplished unless the FAA ICA mandates it, but I want to review the log history and see how many hours since they were last overhauled or new. Same for number of years on the fuel bladders. Inspection for unreported damage history is not required for an annual, but I will be looking for it.
My point is the annual does not do the job for me as a screening tool for whether or not I should purchase the aircraft.
My point is the annual does not do the job for me as a screening tool for whether or not I should purchase the aircraft.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
I hope you called the FSDO and had Joe or Tony look it over....they would have taken action.
weirdjim
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no....calender time will take the aircraft out of annual. If non-airworthy items are found it can be released with a list and the owner can have another A&P return it to service addressing the discrepancies.
BTW.....I'm also an A&P/IA.
Well, I'm an IA also, and not to start a holy war but ...
Yes, the aircraft can be RETURNED to the owner with a list of nonairworthy items but not RELEASED (as in released for service). The owner can have another A&P repair/fix/replace the nonairworthy items but the A&P cannot return it to service without an IA (either the same one or a different one) signing off the annual with the airworthy items noted and repaired.
That's the way I learned it. YMMV.
Jim
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
negative.....an A&P can return to service those discrepancies, which makes the sign off a legal and valid annual. Remember, the annual inspection was performed....and only those items remained for the aircraft to pass inspection.
Been there done it....before I had the IA....even with the Balt FSDO watching
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brien23
Cleared for Takeoff
Trying to turn in a bad A&P/IA after you flew the aircraft for a few hours, good luck. I have seen local FSDO PMI trying to go after one he blamed everything on the owner who flew the plane 5 hours after he picked it up form him. From pluged fuel line to bent firewall to recover of wing that twisted the wing out of shape nothing stuck. If he the IA has a good lawyer it is hard to prove anything, and if you flew it and nothing bad happened good luck.I hope you called the FSDO and had Joe or Tony look it over....they would have taken action.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
No, the key is after his IA found the errors, make the call. Now, I suppose the other IA will deny seeing it, but, the FSDO will then decide what to do with it.Trying to turn in a bad A&P/IA after you flew the aircraft for a few hours, good luck. I have seen local FSDO PMI trying to go after one he blamed everything on the owner who flew the plane 5 hours after he picked it up form him. From pluged fuel line to bent firewall to recover of wing that twisted the wing out of shape nothing stuck. If he the IA has a good lawyer it is hard to prove anything, and if you flew it and nothing bad happened good luck.
Either way the new owner will be left footing the bill....but the old IA could be seeing some cert actions.
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JHW
En-Route
it's no different than buying a used car, boat, or house. When a complex item changes hands the new owner finds things to fix.
Yep, often when you switch A&P's you find stuff. I took my plane for one annual to a different A&P not because I don't like mine, but you never know what a different set of eyes is going to find.
Flymeariver
Pattern Altitude
How did that turn out for you?
![brian]](/community/data/avatars/m/21/21096.jpg?1456258959){kind=avatar}
Lindberg
Final Approach
If the IA saw it and didn't say anything or lied, it would seem he's complicit in a fraud and should lose his certificate (at least).No, the key is after his IA found the errors, make the call. Now, I suppose the other IA will deny seeing it, but, the FSDO will then decide what to do with it.
Either way the new owner will be left footing the bill....but the old IA could be seeing some cert actions.
If he didn't see something like a broken spar upon performing an annual, it would seem he's incompetent and should lose his certificate (at least).
brcase
En-Route
As others have said mostly it is due to changing IA. Different IA will find different things.
I had one student that decided to have 3 different IA's do his annuals, all three were expensive. 2nd one found that the propeller installed was approved for an STC for the airplane.
While having different IA's inspect the airplane will probably find the most issues it is not the cheapest way to get a annual done.
I usually recommend that if at all possible have the Mechanic you are going to have do your annuals do an annual inspection for your prebuy inspection.
Brian
I had one student that decided to have 3 different IA's do his annuals, all three were expensive. 2nd one found that the propeller installed was approved for an STC for the airplane.
While having different IA's inspect the airplane will probably find the most issues it is not the cheapest way to get a annual done.
I usually recommend that if at all possible have the Mechanic you are going to have do your annuals do an annual inspection for your prebuy inspection.
Brian
brien23
Cleared for Takeoff
How do you prove what he saw or did not see. How can you prove the new owner did not break the spar since the last I A did not see it.
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Lindberg
Final Approach
You put him under oath and depose him. Ask him what he saw. Ask the IA who discovered the problem what he saw, how he found it, and when he thinks it happened. Let the jury decide who's lying. Make him a co-defendant with the prior owner, and watch them point fingers at each other. Hopefully, before it gets to that point, whoever carries his professional liability insurance has written you a check for the costs of the repair. The FAA can do its own investigating.
Silvaire
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An annual inspection is just that - an INSPECTION. When it is entered and signed in the logbook it means that they aircraft has been inspected in accordance with all of the pertinent criteria and is is either in conformance and in an airworthy condition at that moment in time in which case it will be released for service or it isn't. Either way it does not need to be inspected again for another year. This does not mean that the aircraft somehow magically remains in an airworthy condition for 12 months. It only means that it doesn't have to be inspected again for 12 months.
In the case of a broken spar or any other busted or missing part - there is normally no way on Earth for anyone to prove when that occurred. You can't just pull a date out of a hat and use it to accuse someone of negligence or fraud. An I/A who signs off an annual inspection is not expected to maintain 24 hour a day surveillance of that aircraft for a year to ensure that no damage occurs or that the owner doesn't install an unauthorized part or any other nonsense such as that which would invalidate it's airworthiness. An aircraft is not airworthy simply because it was inspected, the annual is just one small aspect of the airworthiness requirements.
In the case of a broken spar or any other busted or missing part - there is normally no way on Earth for anyone to prove when that occurred. You can't just pull a date out of a hat and use it to accuse someone of negligence or fraud. An I/A who signs off an annual inspection is not expected to maintain 24 hour a day surveillance of that aircraft for a year to ensure that no damage occurs or that the owner doesn't install an unauthorized part or any other nonsense such as that which would invalidate it's airworthiness. An aircraft is not airworthy simply because it was inspected, the annual is just one small aspect of the airworthiness requirements.
Jeff Oslick
Final Approach
We've had 4 IA's in 10 years for our bird, with the latest one doing his first annual on it a couple months ago. We do this as a matter of course to get fresh eyes on the plane. Does this cost more? Probably in some years, but I can sleep better knowing more than one IA thinks our bird is in better-than-airworthy condition. After a few years, IA's can get complacent that they "know a bird" and can have a tendency to sometimes overlook things that have changed gradually. There is a lot to look at, and it isn't realistic to expect an IA to spot everything, every year.
Jeff
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brien23
Cleared for Takeoff
I am sure after his lawyer advises him the deposition will not be worth the time to do it. As to the IA saying when he thinks it happened, worthless, what he might think means nothing, how could you prove when it happened you need proven science $$$ and even the best science can't tell that. Probably would not be a jury only a judge, defendant's choice, if your trying to prove something that can't be proven only assumed. As to the FAA once the PMI sends it to legal and they find a aviation lawyer advising the IA they tend to walk away unless it made a smoking hole or killed someone. Point is once a lawyer is in the IA corner justice has nothing to do with the outcome.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Blah, blah, blah. Use a mechanic that you trust your family's life with. If a stranger does it for you so be it. I'm particular about who works on my planes.
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
If I ever get serious enough to buy another plane, I'll try to work something out with the owner to fly it here to our AP/IA.
If it turns into a pig, I'm out a few hundred bucks and not ten's of thousands as I watch the little piggy fly away.
I call that 'getting off cheap.' :wink2:
If it turns into a pig, I'm out a few hundred bucks and not ten's of thousands as I watch the little piggy fly away.
I call that 'getting off cheap.' :wink2:
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Lindberg
Final Approach
Have you taken or defended a lot of depositions? I always advise my clients that the absolutely, without a doubt, unquestionably most important rule is to tell the truth. Lying is much worse than the truth. I don't think I'm unique in that.
The standard of proof in a civil case is the "preponderance of the evidence."
In what jurisdiction does a defendant's choice override the plaintiff's demand for a jury?
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