Overthinking taxiing

LongRoadBob

LongRoadBob

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I know, I know. I'm overthinking this but I am curious.

Two lessons so far. The first I got to taxi, had only read about general advice on taxiing. It was fun, it went...uh...not bad. I kept it slow, and mostly was staying on the line. Second lesson the other instructor was in a hurry to get up in the air and took all taxiing.

But I got to thinking about the rudder and how much effect it has in different conditions. The nosewheel on this plane is connected to the rudder, so on a still day it is just the nosewheel controlling.

But then I got to thinking about on a slightly windy day, say turning to the left with a wind from the left? Or same turn with the wind from the right? First was thinking from the left would enhance the left turn, the rudder vertical stab wing section would be helping. Then wondering (since gravity is not in play since it is downward) if the wind was from the right I am not sure if that means there is also a help in turning left because there is less wing exposed to the wind?

Definitely overthinking this, but it seems to me it is kind of like if you had a car with steering that changed its effect all the time? Or is the rudder pretty insignificant no matter what at slow speeds?
 
First off, remind us what plane you are flying for those of us who don't remember every one of your posts.
I think I somewhat understand the question with the wind and the wing/gravity. I think that part is something that's over thought.
The rudder always has some effect, remember it's usually in the prop wash which has more wind going past it than the rest of the plane. For most planes, especially taildraggers, the cross wind blowing against the side of the aft fuselage and vertical tail will either make it easier or harder to start the turn or stop the turn.
Taxiing is just like in flight, the controls respond differently as they have more or less effect because of the speed of relative wind, or in the case of on the ground, direction.
 
champ driver said:
First off, remind us what plane you are flying for those of us who don't remember every one of your posts.
I think I somewhat understand the question with the wind and the wing/gravity. I think that part is something that's over thought.
The rudder always has some effect, remember it's usually in the prop wash which has more wind going past it than the rest of the plane. For most planes, especially taildraggers, the cross wind blowing against the side of the aft fuselage and vertical tail will either make it easier or harder to start the turn or stop the turn.
Taxiing is just like in flight, the controls respond differently as they have more or less effect because of the speed of relative wind, or in the case of on the ground, direction.
Click to expand...

Thanks. It's an Aquila A210. I just thought all nose-wheel/rudder planes would be about the same so I didn't think it would be needed.
Propwash...yes, of course, I had forgotten about that. Thanks for the points you wrote, they all make sense to me and were helpful!
 
Pre-restart Cessnas seem to be quite difficult to turn (or to arrest weather vaning) at very low speed without using brakes, which suggests the rudder is doing almost all the work.

You'll get the hang of it. Some planes taxi easier than others, but it's just different from what you're used to.
 
I'm a student pilot as well. I have taxied in a steerable nose wheel (with hand brake) and a castering nose wheel (toe brakes and rudder to steer). I have about 10 hours in both. I much prefer the steerable nose wheel. I'm guessing it's what you learn in first!
 
LongRoadBob said:
Propwash...yes, of course, I had forgotten about that.
Click to expand...

Sometimes you may find a slight benefit to giving a little more throttle just before the turn to increase the prop wash and thereby increase turning rate. The trick is to do it enough to increase prop wash, but to do it at the right time and gingerly enough so as to not increase your speed.
 
If I want to taxi faster, I just pick up the tail and taxi on the mains only. I assume you could do similar with a nosewheel.
 
PPC1052 said:
Sometimes you may find a slight benefit to giving a little more throttle just before the turn to increase the prop wash and thereby increase turning rate. The trick is to do it enough to increase prop wash, but to do it at the right time and gingerly enough so as to not increase your speed.
Click to expand...

That sounds like great advice, and it also sounds VERY tricky. Like something that I might want to try after I can at least stay somewhat on the line :) but it is a great idea.
 
LongRoadBob said:
That sounds like great advice, and it also sounds VERY tricky.
Click to expand...
Not really that hard. You'll get it. I learned in a free castering nose wheel. It became second nature. Sort of like learning to steer with your feet. Just takes a little practice.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I know, I know. I'm overthinking this but I am curious.

Two lessons so far.
Click to expand...
There's your answer. Castering, steerable, nosewheel, tailwheel, it's not like driving a car (unless, of course, it's an Ercoupe ;)) Beyond understanding basic taxi wind corrections, it's really just something that takes getting used to. Your instructor, who is right there seeing what you are doing, will have a much, much better idea of what you are doing correctly or incorrectly than any of us sitting in front of a computer.

BTW, yes, you are overthinking it :D
 
PPC1052 said:
Sometimes you may find a slight benefit to giving a little more throttle just before the turn to increase the prop wash and thereby increase turning rate. The trick is to do it enough to increase prop wash, but to do it at the right time and gingerly enough so as to not increase your speed.
Click to expand...

This is why the very early aircraft (pre- World War One) frequently used wing walkers to assist with ground maneuvers.

Typically they had tail skids not tail wheels, and the pilot would have to raise the tail with power to turn. Acceleration occurred! Oops, these early aircraft had no brakes either. Tough to maneuver in close quarters without a ground ape or two to keep speed down and to wrestle you around corners!

-Skip
 
One thing to remember: airplanes were designed to fly. They are not SUVs or sports cars. Many airplanes are damaged in accidents arising from taxiing too fast. They have poor traction, a high center of gravity, a triangular footprint (instability) and cannot maneuver quickly. Taxiing downwind at speed, especially in a taildragger, is asking for trouble. There is little or no airflow over the surfaces, reducing the level of control, and a turn at the end of the taxi, while still moving too fast, can upset the airplane. The wind will help the airplane flip onto its nose and a wingtip, or sometimes right over onto its back.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I know, I know. I'm overthinking this but I am curious.

But then I got to thinking about on a slightly windy day, say turning to the left with a wind from the left? Or same turn with the wind from the right? First was thinking from the left would enhance the left turn, the rudder vertical stab wing section would be helping. Then wondering (since gravity is not in play since it is downward) if the wind was from the right I am not sure if that means there is also a help in turning left because there is less wing exposed to the wind?
Click to expand...

Into the wind if from the front. Away from the wind if from behind. This will push down the wing exposed to the wind, so the wind doesn't get under it to flip you. Been on that ride.
 
Way overthinking it. Just put in rudder the direction of turn. Tap that brake to tighten it up while increasing power so you don't stall out in the turn. It will become second nature eventually.
 
For the aileron, first thing you have to learn is if you push the yoke all the way to the right, the left aileron goes down and the right aileron goes up. Look out and visually check it.
 
This brings up another question from me. I've read of pilots in nosewheel steering aircraft can still be a little "sloppy" on directions (lets even say "just students") kind of meandering, and also if light winds not really needing to adjust ailerons or elevators with regards to the breeze and it still will more or less be ok. But if one is very dilligent, uses ailerons + elevators anytime there is xwind and keeps a good bead with the nose in exactly the direction one wants the plane to fly, would that be helpful if they later went over to tailwheel aircraft, or is that SO different that you just plain have to learn to taxi all over in a different way?
 
Dan Thomas said:
One thing to remember: airplanes were designed to fly. They are not SUVs or sports cars. Many airplanes are damaged in accidents arising from taxiing too fast. They have poor traction, a high center of gravity, a triangular footprint (instability) and cannot maneuver quickly. Taxiing downwind at speed, especially in a taildragger, is asking for trouble. There is little or no airflow over the surfaces, reducing the level of control, and a turn at the end of the taxi, while still moving too fast, can upset the airplane. The wind will help the airplane flip onto its nose and a wingtip, or sometimes right over onto its back.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I did ok I think for a first time. Was slightly dissapointed I didn't get to taxi the second lesson because I had gone over in my mind what I did wrong or could to better and was really ready to see if I could stay on the line better. But even the first time it was immidiately apparent to me, I even had the exact thought "this thing is like a fish out of water when it is on the ground". It's even a little funny as this plane handles (I'm told, what do I know) nicely and it's up there doing what it was built for and when the instructor lands it, we're suddenly this cumbersome, weird vehicle clearly not in its element.

But then again, I see others, and my second instructor too, taxi and make it look like the thing is pretty smooth.

It will be a long time until I try it, but have just been reading some pointers about tailwheel aircraft and tips on taxiing with them and I think when and if I pass my PPL I may want to try and see about learning them as well. I took away from the pointers that the number one thing in them would be never let the nose waver at all, think ahead and know exactly where you want to put the plane at all times instead of as one drives a car sometimes.
Also mentioning that in nosewheel the CG is in front of the wheels (this for some reason helped me a LOT, just thinking about that) and on tailwheel it is behind the wheels. I used to work in factories, got me to thinking about hand pallet jacks (it's been a while I forgot what we called them actually) the different technique one had to use when pulling them as opposed to when pushing them.

Thanks again all. I already admitted I MAY be overthinking, but so what? I know when I am taxiing is not the time to "think" but to do, and when someone says "you are overthinking" hopefully they mean in a way "it's easier than that and to do it you don't need to know more than X" but at the same time thinking a little extra has often helped me in other ways. Like the pallet jack thought (if apropos) some concept sometimes ties things together for one when it is overthought.

It's not that weird either. As a student I'm getting tons of new concepts, being required to "overthink" pretty much every aspect of flying. I'm sometimes careful about not thinking too much on my own, "reasoning out" too much because I don't want to get a wrong concept stuck in my mind as correct. That's why this forum was a great find for me, because of all the experience here. I sometimes come to a new thought or concept and then go check if it is appropriate, and correct. Everything is new, and unlike much other learning I have done, often in flying there is nothing much in my other experiences to tie it to. It's pretty unique with so far lots of surprises as to how this actually works. It really is a kick. But again, students are in this modus and it can be hard to know when the physics model is getting too detailed.

It's like when I learned electronics. You learn pretty quickly that at a very low level all electronic components have other aspects. Like a resistor resists current flow and ohms is the measure of how much it does that, which is the primary characteristic. But also it has capacitance. It's usually VERY small, but even the solder connection (or however connected to a circuit) means it has capacitance. Usually it is so small a characteristic it can be ignored in calculations. You would say "don't overthink it" but in SOME circuits it absolutley could be a problem (higher frequencies for example) and it may be tricky to realize that it might be a problem. So knowing that there is minor, negligable capacitance in a circuit connection with a resistor (and in the resistor itself) is something you don't think about but you know it exists, and when the normal thinking isn't working in troubleshooting you think about if that could be a factor now.

And with this long post, I could (rightly) be accused of "overthinking overthinking" :)
 
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Just turn the airplane. Make it do what you need it to do. That's all there is to it. ;)
 
LongRoadBob said:
This brings up another question from me. I've read of pilots in nosewheel steering aircraft can still be a little "sloppy" on directions (lets even say "just students") kind of meandering, and also if light winds not really needing to adjust ailerons or elevators with regards to the breeze and it still will more or less be ok. But if one is very dilligent, uses ailerons + elevators anytime there is xwind and keeps a good bead with the nose in exactly the direction one wants the plane to fly, would that be helpful if they later went over to tailwheel aircraft, or is that SO different that you just plain have to learn to taxi all over in a different way?
Click to expand...

Taxiing a tailwheel plane is not really different, just more involved, like being more aware of the wind and what it's doing to your plane on the ground and the proper control usage. A light plane like a Cub or Champ is much more affected by the wind than something like a Beech 18.
Keep it up, you'll get it, all it takes is practice.
Do not tolerate any more of the instructor taking over and not allowing you to learn how to taxi just because he's in a hurry. You'll never solo if you can't even taxi.
Everything is hard at first, once you get it, it becomes easier and requires less thought, or second nature.
 
Taxiing in wind can be as difficult or more difficult as landing in wind.
 
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