Overhead break?

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
Ok, so what exactly is an overhead break and why is it sometimes preferred for high performance aircraft (ie fighter jets) instead of a standard pattern?

From what I understand, you basically crossover mid-field and make a constant descending 270deg turn to touchdown..? Is that right?

If there is no other traffic, can they be done in a GA aircraft?

Dan
 
It is just a quicker, more standardized way to enter the VFR pattern for mil aircraft. For us, you basically break at 350 kts or so at the approach end numbers, should be lowering the gear and flaps just prior to being abeam/180 out, and then we just fly a standard carrier approach turn to final. Much more efficient than a straight in, or a downwind/base entry where you need to slow well before entering the pattern, and might have trouble visually picking out your interval.....ie we can keep our normal cruise speed up until we are directly over the field, thus saving gas and time. I'm just as comfortable doing any other approach/pattern entry, so it's not like it is vital to our safety, just that it is quicker by a good bit. Yes, civilian aircraft can break, though I'd argue that it is pretty pointless and only for show if you normally cruise around within 50 knots of your approach speed.......that and most "breaks" at civilian airports are really high, compared to a real break at 800' AGL.

FWIW it is 360 degrees of turn in total, as you break basically pointing down runway heading slightly offset from the runway at break altitude. There are some bastardized overheads out there (like NAS North Island RWY 29) due to noise abatement, but generally you start on runway heading over the runway.
 
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The break is normally initiated on runway heading, at the runway threshold, correct?
 
And it makes flight suit wearing RV drivers happy :D
 
And looks really pretty when done right by formation proficient pilots
 
AggieMike88 said:
And looks really pretty when done right by formation proficient pilots
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The only one I've ever done was in a formation, we used it for spacing. We entered on runway heading, lead broke over the numbers, I broke midfield and trail broke on the other set of numbers.
 
It's just something to keep us lowly C-150 drivers on our toes when we try to figure out where someone is when they report "1 mile from the initial for overhead break R35" (or whatever it was I heard the other day).
 
35 nailed it but I'll add a little.

You start at the initial. At NBC ours was at 2,500 ft and 5 miles. You come inbound from the initial aligned with the runway and either maintain initial altitude or in our case descend to 1,500. This is 500 ft above pattern altitude for a reason. It allows twr to bring you in over any local pattern traffic and easily sequence you in. Generally a level left break at 350 kts 5 Gs (not sure on G) and then descend to TPA. Then it's a normal pattern only your turns are not squared off. One 180 degree turn for break and one 180 turn to final no less than 1/4 mile and 300 ft. Maybe 35 can add but only squared off overhead I've seen is sometimes Air Force when doing combat spread?

That's basic overhead. Carrier Break is a bit different. Initial is the same but break is at 800 ft and TPA is 600ft. I've watched F-18s come in at 450 + knots and probably hit right up against the G limiter in the break. Also seen guys light the burner in the break which is always cool while not really necessary. Speed varied depending how much the guys are pumped up from coming from the boat or whatever ACM they've been doing off shore. No one seems to mind until the airport manager gets ticked off because he's a C-12 guy and spends most of the day behind a desk. Then you have what we did and put controllers on "speeding ticket" watch and write up anyone who exceeds 350 kts at the initial. :)

But yeah, that's it in a nutshell. Varies by base but you can find the altitudes and procedures in either the AFD, IFR Sup or the Area Planning manual. I agree with 35 AOA, it's not really needed for civilian aircraft unless you fly something extremely slick like say a Glasair. An RV has way too much drag to require an over head. :)

Oh don't get it confused with a 360 forced landing pattern. That's done over the approach end with throttle at idle in a constant turn while varying the bank angle to simulate an engine out. Two completely different things.
 
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I do it in the glider for a few reasons.

1) I can get a closer look at the windsock.
2) I can make sure there arent any other gliders that will be in the way.
3) Its fun.
 
My primary instructor used this as a training tool but he called it "an overhead 360". I guess it's not "a break" with only one aircraft.

We'd fly runway heading, down the centerline at pattern altitude, chop the throttle to idle at midfield and then see how close to the numbers we could land.

It was a great dead stick energy management / situational awareness training tool.
 
dans2992 said:
Ok, so what exactly is an overhead break and why is it sometimes preferred for high performance aircraft (ie fighter jets) instead of a standard pattern?

From what I understand, you basically crossover mid-field and make a constant descending 270deg turn to touchdown..? Is that right?

If there is no other traffic, can they be done in a GA aircraft?

Dan
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:popcorn:
 
Threefingeredjack said:
:popcorn:
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I didn't say I wanted to do them....

Well, it might be something fun to try at a non-towered field with no other traffic around, just to see what it's like and as an interesting exercise, but I'm not going to be "that guy" wearing a flight suit and doing "overhead breaks" in a C150
 
dans2992 said:
but I'm not going to be "that guy" wearing a flight suit and doing "overhead breaks" in a C150
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It would be rather anti-climactic in a 150.

I've only done the OB in an SNJ....it was a fun maneuver in that like 35AoA said, you can approach the field and maintain your cruise speed and then after the break, but the time you have turned 180 degrees, you are inside the white arc for flaps/gear. Works out nice.
 
It saves some time in fast airplanes, in the Lancair if we're descending and are given a straight in we usually request an overhead, that way you can come in at 180kts, about midfield pitch left or right, put a couple g's on the plane and pitch up to go from 180kts to gear speed (122kts) in a couple of seconds as you're entering the downwind. Drop the gear abeam the numbers and it's basically a normal base turn/final turn landing from there.
 
PBristolJr said:
It saves some time in fast airplanes, in the Lancair if we're descending and are given a straight in we usually request an overhead, that way you can come in at 180kts, about midfield pitch left or right, put a couple g's on the plane and pitch up to go from 180kts to gear speed (122kts) in a couple of seconds as you're entering the downwind. Drop the gear abeam the numbers and it's basically a normal base turn/final turn landing from there.
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So if you are given a straight in, how does adding a 360 save some time?
Fun yes, but as a time saver...uh no.
 
FORANE said:
So if you are given a straight in, how does adding a 360 save some time?
Fun yes, but as a time saver...uh no.
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If you are coming in high and fast, it probably saves time on the inevitable missed/go-around.
 
I think I have done less than ten......we had an change of command event at CGAS Barbers Point and we did a fly-in-review with our assets. We had 4 HC-130s at the time and we went over to PMRF Barking Sands on Kauai to practice and then did one for the ceremony. Came in for the pass in a (VERY loose) diamond and then went into trail to return for the break.

You have no idea the crap we caught from the Navy jet jocks, (We were just tenants at the then-active NAS) On the chalkboard behind the bar at the O-club: Q: How do you time the break with a 130??? A: With a calendar. :lol:
 
PBristolJr said:
It saves some time in fast airplanes, in the Lancair if we're descending and are given a straight in we usually request an overhead, that way you can come in at 180kts, about midfield pitch left or right, put a couple g's on the plane and pitch up to go from 180kts to gear speed (122kts) in a couple of seconds as you're entering the downwind. Drop the gear abeam the numbers and it's basically a normal base turn/final turn landing from there.
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"Fast" is relative. 180kts is not fast. We had to slow to 200kts in the HU-25 to hit Vlo. I'm sure 35AoA can attest that 180 is a good initial approach speed. :D
 
The whole saving time and gas really doesn't apply to a single ship dude flying his homebuilt. It applies to guys like 35 AOA. Fighters generally don't go out to the Warning Area single ship unless it's a post maintenance test hop. So you have a flight of four descending on down to the air station at 350 + kts on a VFR day. They're IFR so you have about 3 options for them. Number one option is the overhead. It's quick and easy for the approach controller. Option two is separate the flight for individual visuals or split the division into two sections for the VA. A bunch of vectoring and spacing (3-5 miles) for the controller and you have Dash 4 strungout 15 miles from the base in a dirty configuration burning a crapload of gas at 140 kts. Option 3 is try to talk the flight into individual PARs for student training. :) Once again approach has to split them up and string them out all over the air space. Not the most efficient way to come in but controllers need approaches to get certified. So, out of the 3, the overhead is not only the most efficient for the pilots, it's easiest on approach.

What I do in the Glasair is wrap it into a 60 degree bank on downwind and another 45 to base. The added G / induced drag gets me into a landing speed without having to do an overhead.
 
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Matthew said:
It's just something to keep us lowly C-150 drivers on our toes when we try to figure out where someone is when they report "1 mile from the initial for overhead break R35" (or whatever it was I heard the other day).
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Agreed, which is why good Flight Leads flying into civilian fields don't say that. If I'm leading a formation into the pattern for the overhead, I will call "3 miles north for an upwind entry, runway 18, breaking left to the left downwind." I think anyone who's qualified to solo should understand that.
 
Ron Levy said:
Agreed, which is why good Flight Leads flying into civilian fields don't say that. If I'm leading a formation into the pattern for the overhead, I will call "3 miles north for an upwind entry, runway 18, breaking left to the left downwind." I think anyone who's qualified to solo should understand that.
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Does a single civilian plane count as a 'formation' and have a Flight Lead? That was the situation where I was the other day.

They are fun to watch, but when I'm tooling around the pattern I feel better hearing normal VFR terminology.
 
Every time I try to do an overhead break in my Arrow I have a hard time reaching 350 knots in the pattern. Well, I have a hard time reaching 350 knots period.

One of these days.....
 
How often do the military guys exceed 250kt below 10k?

Do they even care about this restriction?
 
Here is a list of reasons why I fly the overhead on GA aircraft (well something that can do at least 130kts, preferably 150kts).

  • Overfly the field to make sure it’s safe to land.
  • Overfly the field to make sure that it’s the right field.
  • Separate the formation.
  • Enter the pattern where no other aircraft should be (500ft above TPA).
  • Easier to spot aircraft in the downwind when looking at them from above instead directly from the side.
  • Easier to merge with traffic in the downwind.
  • As entering you get a good view of both downwinds.
  • Mandatory scanning area decreases from 180° to 90°.
  • In case of an engine failure you will always make it to the runway.
  • It’s simply a fun maneuver so unless the only reason why you fly is to make money there is no reason why not to make the flight more fun.
 
MachFly said:
Controllers can give PARs to more than one aircraft at the same time?
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One controller can only work one aircraft at a time, but you can have multiple PAR stations with two different controllers on two different freqs.

Here on the LHD, for example, we have the people/gear to do two simultaneous PARs....one staggered behind the other.
 
MachFly said:
Controllers can give PARs to more than one aircraft at the same time?
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Most Navy & Marine facilities have 2-3 PAR scopes. During busy days you could have a jets spaced every 3-4 miles with all 3 controllers working an aircraft at once. As an approach controller you rotate your strips so the one on the bottom is closest to final. If everyone is spaced out just right, once the closest GCA is switching to tower you've got another hand off waiting for him around 8-10 miles out.

In the old days PAR was the only way for aircraft to get down in bad wx at Navy & Marine bases. TACAN is good but it's non precision. Now with GPS approaches they have an alternative but with a PAR's 100 ft HAT it still edges it out. Believe me, in some days we've run them right down to 100 ft before they saw anything. Also You have the capability to "lock" the aircraft up and through a Tactical Data Information Link, the aircraft flys itself down. SPN46 radar in the Navy and the Marines have MATCALS. Not used much though.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Agreed, which is why good Flight Leads flying into civilian fields don't say that. If I'm leading a formation into the pattern for the overhead, I will call "3 miles north for an upwind entry, runway 18, breaking left to the left downwind." I think anyone who's qualified to solo should understand that.
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I agree that's the correct way to announce it. At my home field recently a group of four guys in formation came in for a break and the lead did a good job of explaining this in similar terms. Still got a "WTF kind of pattern is that" from a certain grumpy CFI...
 
Simply it is the fastest way to recover aircraft in formation and used to be the primary procedure for the military and its controllers fast or slow. Just more impressive a 350 knots...
 
Velocity173 said:
In the old days PAR was the only way for aircraft to get down in bad wx at Navy & Marine bases. TACAN is good but it's non precision. Now with GPS approaches they have an alternative but with a PAR's 100 ft HAT it still edges it out. Believe me, in some days we've run them right down to 100 ft before they saw anything. Also You have the capability to "lock" the aircraft up and through a Tactical Data Information Link, the aircraft flys itself down. SPN46 radar in the Navy and the Marines have MATCALS. Not used much though.
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I am sure that the mins are lower at the fields ashore (and hopefully the CVNs), but I was rather suprised when I was hanging out a couple nights ago observing the GCAs with AV-8s and found that our mins are 1 mile vis.....we don't have an approach to this boat for less than 1 mile. Obviously, if you have to, you have to, but we don't have anything published below that.
 
Fearless Tower said:
One controller can only work one aircraft at a time, but you can have multiple PAR stations with two different controllers on two different freqs.

Here on the LHD, for example, we have the people/gear to do two simultaneous PARs....one staggered behind the other.
Click to expand...

Velocity173 said:
Most Navy & Marine facilities have 2-3 PAR scopes. During busy days you could have a jets spaced every 3-4 miles with all 3 controllers working an aircraft at once. As an approach controller you rotate your strips so the one on the bottom is closest to final. If everyone is spaced out just right, once the closest GCA is switching to tower you've got another hand off waiting for him around 8-10 miles out.
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I see


In the old days PAR was the only way for aircraft to get down in bad wx at Navy & Marine bases. TACAN is good but it's non precision. Now with GPS approaches they have an alternative but with a PAR's 100 ft HAT it still edges it out. Believe me, in some days we've run them right down to 100 ft before they saw anything. Also You have the capability to "lock" the aircraft up and through a Tactical Data Information Link, the aircraft flys itself down. SPN46 radar in the Navy and the Marines have MATCALS. Not used much though.
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PAR = Best thing since sliced bread.
 
MachFly said:
I see




PAR = Best thing since sliced bread.
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Yeah if the controller is experienced and knows his equipment the PAR is still a viable option. Also helps to have an experienced pilot. Students controlling with a student flying something like a T-38, forget about it. That's an absolute mess.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah if the controller is experienced and knows his equipment the PAR is still a viable option. Also helps to have an experienced pilot. Students controlling with a student flying something like a T-38, forget about it. That's an absolute mess.
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My first time doing a PAR was in a Warrior landing at Yuma....hard to miss on that one!
 
Matthew said:
Does a single civilian plane count as a 'formation' and have a Flight Lead? That was the situation where I was the other day.
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I suppose there is no Lead when there is no formation, but the terminology issue would be the same.
 
PAR is a wonderful thing if you find yourself in the clouds with only a working ADF...My first inadvertent IFR having to climb due to Cumulous Granite and fog was an immediate call from a Air force Controller the minute I squawked 7600 with my tail number and instructions to keep me out of trouble...Nothing like breaking out at 500 ft with ten thousand feet of runway in front of you....even though your a AH-1 and don't need it. I made one call to acknowledge the first contact and then field in sight some 20 min later.
 
I was on a 1 mile final to 32 at MSN last Wednesday when a B-24 did an overhead break off to my left. I now know what the terminology means, but I didn't at the time. Either way, it was pretty damn cool.
 
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