Oshkosh Pink Shirts

[Jay Honeck]

Who says they'll be twice as efficient? Half the cost because they would be using half the controllers. Jay, who do you think pays for contract controllers? We do. Either through FAA contracts or local taxes. Same thing when a controller goes to Iraq or Afghanistan to make a fortune, they're getting paid through a govt contract. These private contractors have unions as well. It's called PATCO. Either way your paying for their services Jay.

Compare the costs. That's what matters.

Look at the cost of a contract vs. FAA tower. It's night and day. Can YOU tell the difference when flying?

I sure can't.

Look at how great private FSS briefers are now, compared to the monotone gummint drones who used to answer the phones. Most of them are pilots themselves (Lockmart preferentially hires private pilots) so they actually have a clue what flying is about.

Private industry trumps government employees, every time. When properly done, they will always do it better, for less, and actually care about the results.

 

[steingar]

If your questions are not rhetorical, let me take a stab at it. The FAA will care. They will care enough to block any kind of previously authorized actionable items that depend on the federal approval. Namely, altitude requirements, spacing requirements, acro waivers, JO ops waivers, fueling, noise, etc. In fact, I could seriously envision a cadre of 'enforcement' FAA reps descending on the EAA and writing a squawk for every other plane on the field. Capricious? Of course, but when the feds control all that you do, or say, or eat, or sleep, or stand, walk, talk, point, and pass gas, it makes it easy to throw sand in the gears. For a good time, rent the movie "Brazil".

You don't get it. If the EAA didn't pony up, the FAA would rescind their waiver. The insurance company would immediately cancel their coverage and BOOM, no fly-in. Oh sure, you could fly into Whitman that week, lots of people probably would. Good luck getting any food, bathrooms, showers, or anything to do but stare at each other. Heck they could forbid you to camp on the field.

As for the gen-pop, no. It would not even measure a blip on the radar of the rest of America. That's why the FAA can get away with it. Just like getting away with requiring that GA pilots and pax who are US citizens getting 'authorization' to leave the country via airplane.

Now you're getting it. My guess is there are around twenty thousand people who would care (those who show up) but not much otherwise. The FAA would love it, lots of guys come to grief flying to or from Oshkosh making work for the FAA and the NTSB. Wouldn't it be nice for them if the whole thing just went away?

More than 70% of what the FAA does regulatory would be considered illegal in the 1960s, and prolly 40% would be considered illegal in the 1980s. Guess what, we don't live in those times anymore. We live in the PATRIOT act, NDAA, 'you have not paid enough' and 'you did not build that' times.

It would have only been illegal because the law wasn't written yet, but you are correct. The utterly Orwellianly-named Patriot Act fixed that, and it will get worse, far far worse, before it ever gets better.

 

[docmirror]

You don't get it. If the EAA didn't pony up, the FAA would rescind their waiver.

Uh - you just restated what I said in my first para. No pay, no play.

 

[ClimbnSink]

The FAA would care if the show didn't happen, if you don't give the regulators something to regulate they get light headed. All those b'crats doing nothing without the excuse of cough*working*cough the airshow.

 

[steingar]

The FAA would care if the show didn't happen, if you don't give the regulators something to regulate they get light headed. All those b'crats doing nothing without the excuse of cough*working*cough the airshow.

Bah, they can claim they're doing a great job regulating commercial aviation with it's breathtakingly low accident rate. We're the red-headed stepchildren, and they would just as soon see us gone.

 

[steingar]

You don't REALLY think the administrator will dare to show his face at OSH this year, do you?

I doubt it, and he can use the sequester as an excuse.

 

[Jay Honeck]

The FAA would care if the show didn't happen, if you don't give the regulators something to regulate they get light headed. All those b'crats doing nothing without the excuse of cough*working*cough the airshow.

I don't know where you live, but in my neck of the woods bureaucrats and "work" do not happily mix. IMHO, the FAA-types would LOVE to see Airventure axed.

 

[Velocity173]

Compare the costs. That's what matters.

Look at the cost of a contract vs. FAA tower. It's night and day. Can YOU tell the difference when flying?

I sure can't.

Look at how great private FSS briefers are now, compared to the monotone gummint drones who used to answer the phones. Most of them are pilots themselves (Lockmart preferentially hires private pilots) so they actually have a clue what flying is about.

Private industry trumps government employees, every time. When properly done, they will always do it better, for less, and actually care about the results.

Jay your comments have a lot to do with perception and very little to do with fact.

At OSH I think safety is what matters, not costs. You really think half the amount of contract controllers can provide the same level of service? You just can't jump into a place like OSH and expect to be controlling like your home airport. That's why the FAA brings a certain number of previous OSH controllers with them.

Yeah contract tower guys make less than FAA. That's because the traffic at their airport is slow. Why would you pay a contract guy in a Class D the same amount as a Class B guy? Also you know where the private towers get some of their controllers from? Retired FAA.

Lockeed Martin AFSS isn't staffed with primarily pilots. I don't know who told you that rumor. They prefer aviation experience just as the FAA did prior. Also, when LM took over the majority of specialists kept their jobs with a pay increase as well. My brother did FSS for the FAA and was both a controller and a pilot. Several of his co-workers were either former controllers or pilots as well. As far as 'gummit monotone drones' I guess you didn't use the service back when my Dad did it. It you did you would've gotten a face to face, personalized, professional brief from someone who actually lives in the area and has extensive experience in FSS. That was service. Back then FSS was actually quite valuable. That is before the Internet took over and made flight planning easy. Also, LM just didn't do something magical and make FSS more efficient. Let's not forget, the FAA went from over 300 stations and scaled down to 61 all on their own and saved the tax payer 1.5 billion in the process. With a declining pilot population and reduction of GA activity, it was common sense to let FSS go to privatization. Same reason why they let the slower towers go private.

Jay there are far better things (privitization of war) to rant about than us 'gummint' workers. As Duncan said above I actually like having the services they provide.

 

[Jay Honeck]

And that seems like a good post to end this rant with. To sum up the group-think:

- Pink shirts are wonderful people who have only our best interests at heart.

- Controllers are not merely civil servants, but rather highly trained professionals that have only our best interests at heart.

- The FAA is just a pawn in a huge political chess match, and fault for this debacle lies solely with our elected officials. Civil servants are awesome people who have only our best interests at heart.

- Jay is a meanie, who prolly smells bad and is getting old and cranky.

Hokey dokey. It's time to go fly....

 

[ClimbnSink]

Oh noz Jay is a parasite sympathizer.

 

[docmirror]

My sarcasm-meter is pegged in the red.

 

[AuntPeggy]

You know what? I like the idea of telling the FAA and their 35 page NOTAM to just stay home.

I will still fly in to OSH.

Does anyone know what year the FAA instituted the waiver and FISK approach?

The first year I flew into Oshkosh, I followed someone who did exactly that. He joined the line for the Fisk approach somewhat above the established altitude. He tried to use standard radio communication with controllers, but ignored their instructions. He landed wherever he wanted on the runway. He did join the line going to camping and shouted out the window over his engine noise that that is what he wanted to do. He followed ground instructions and parked where directed. I parked next to him. He had a tent and a barbecue grill that he used for grilling steaks under the wing of his 172. He did not have any equipment for tying down his aircraft and when told he had to get some, trekked to a store and bought tent stakes and line. When the inevitable windstorm came along, his airplane danced around in its spot, tearing out the stakes, and barely missed us. We spoke to his non-pilot passenger who said that he had made the decision to go that same day and just tossed some things into the plane and took off with no briefings of any sort.

I know you prefer your liberty, but I think those NOTAMs are well thought out and valuable. I think someone who does not become familiar with them is irresponsible, possibly a menace.

 

[weilke]

And that seems like a good post to end this rant with. To sum up the group-think:

- Pink shirts are wonderful people who have only our best interests at heart.

- Controllers are not merely civil servants, but rather highly trained professionals that have only our best interests at heart.

- The FAA is just a pawn in a huge political chess match, and fault for this debacle lies solely with our elected officials. Civil servants are awesome people who have only our best interests at heart.

- Jay is a meanie, who prolly smells bad and is getting old and cranky.

Hokey dokey. It's time to go fly....

Mh, no.

The summary is more along the lines of:

- bohoo, they dont agree with me, I'll take my ball and go somewhere else to play.

 

[Jay Honeck]

The first year I flew into Oshkosh, I followed someone who did exactly that. He joined the line for the Fisk approach somewhat above the established altitude. He tried to use standard radio communication with controllers, but ignored their instructions. He landed wherever he wanted on the runway. He did join the line going to camping and shouted out the window over his engine noise that that is what he wanted to do. He followed ground instructions and parked where directed. I parked next to him. He had a tent and a barbecue grill that he used for grilling steaks under the wing of his 172. He did not have any equipment for tying down his aircraft and when told he had to get some, trekked to a store and bought tent stakes and line. When the inevitable windstorm came along, his airplane danced around in its spot, tearing out the stakes, and barely missed us. We spoke to his non-pilot passenger who said that he had made the decision to go that same day and just tossed some things into the plane and took off with no briefings of any sort.

I know you prefer your liberty, but I think those NOTAMs are well thought out and valuable. I think someone who does not become familiar with them is irresponsible, possibly a menace.

What makes you think we need the FAA to coordinate the FISK approach?

What makes you think having the FAA prevents morons (like in your example) from flying into OSH?

Methinks EAA writes 90% of the NOTAM, anyway.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Mh, no.

The summary is more along the lines of:

- bohoo, they dont agree with me, I'll take my ball and go somewhere else to play.

?? Who is "they"?

Who is "me"?

I'm still here. I just thought the thread had run its course. Guess not! lol

 

[steingar]

What makes you think we need the FAA to coordinate the FISK approach?

What makes you think having the FAA prevents morons (like in your example) from flying into OSH?

Methinks EAA writes 90% of the NOTAM, anyway.

I do hope you're writing this in jest. We have board members who won't approach Oshkosh even with all the ATC in place. Can you imagine how much worse it would be with folks just cramming in wherever they can?

 

[ClimbnSink]

Worked out fine.

The first year I flew into Oshkosh, I followed someone who did exactly that. He joined the line for the Fisk approach somewhat above the established altitude. He tried to use standard radio communication with controllers, but ignored their instructions. He landed wherever he wanted on the runway. He did join the line going to camping and shouted out the window over his engine noise that that is what he wanted to do. He followed ground instructions and parked where directed. I parked next to him. He had a tent and a barbecue grill that he used for grilling steaks under the wing of his 172. He did not have any equipment for tying down his aircraft and when told he had to get some, trekked to a store and bought tent stakes and line. When the inevitable windstorm came along, his airplane danced around in its spot, tearing out the stakes, and barely missed us. We spoke to his non-pilot passenger who said that he had made the decision to go that same day and just tossed some things into the plane and took off with no briefings of any sort.

I know you prefer your liberty, but I think those NOTAMs are well thought out and valuable. I think someone who does not become familiar with them is irresponsible, possibly a menace.

 

[Velocity173]

Well, looks like Congress isn't going to allow the $447,000 fee for the "Pink Shirts." looks like you guys will be using a CTAF this year.

 

[docmirror]

^^ Any refs?

IMNSHO - sounds good.

 

[Velocity173]

^^ Any refs?

IMNSHO - sounds good.

It was an AOPA email. I already deleted it. I'm sure someone will post a link soon. I wonder who will be paying for overtime, travel, lodging, food, etc. for these "parasites?"

 

[docmirror]

Maybe we'll get lucky and the FAA will tell them to stay home.

 

[roncachamp]

Maybe we'll get lucky and the FAA will tell them to stay home.

Too late for that, they'd have to tell them to return home.

 

[docmirror]

Too late for that, they'd have to tell them to return home.

Well, I bet that's going to make them that much nicer, and more considerate than usual.

 

[Velocity173]

The FAA will just transfer the 447 grand from other programs like retired controller pensions.

 

[roncachamp]

The FAA will just transfer the 447 grand from other programs like retired controller pensions.

Controller pensions are handled by the Office of Personnel Management, not by FAA.

 

[frfly172]

OSH is a scheduled event and planned for in the budget,politics are running the venue.aircraft owners are all rich and can afford to pay for there convention,this is what the public are told and believes.when was the last time the pouts was not funded for his travels to city's and towns for politics.just a thought.

 

[wabower]

If the plssant pilots did anything near as good a job flying their planes as ATC does handling the traffic at OSH the fatals that somehow seem to occur every year would drop to zip.

Maybe we'll get lucky and the FAA will tell them to stay home.

 

[denverpilot]

I do hope you're writing this in jest. We have board members who won't approach Oshkosh even with all the ATC in place. Can you imagine how much worse it would be with folks just cramming in wherever they can?

Ooh. Website Board members!

Was that supposed to add weight to the argument? LOL!

 

[docmirror]

If the plssant pilots did anything near as good a job flying their planes as ATC does handling the traffic at OSH the fatals that somehow seem to occur every year would drop to zip.

Wellll! The nerve of some people complaining about my airmanship again.

Not sure why you're quoting me, I don't recall ever seeing you or commenting on my flight into or out of KOSH. Just cause I buzzed the tower, and landed the Bo on the ultralight field is no reason to get huffy.

 

[wabower]

I assumed that since you're still posting you weren't one of those who bought the farm at OSH.

Wellll! The nerve of some people complaining about my airmanship again.

Not sure why you're quoting me, I don't recall ever seeing you or commenting on my flight into or out of KOSH. Just cause I buzzed the tower, and landed the Bo on the ultralight field is no reason to get huffy.

 

[docmirror]

This is the ghost of doc future. He flies an Aerostar 701P out of a 2200' grass strip in the keys.

My KOSH method works well for me. I get into Portage WI about 5:30PM. Get my gas, drop a deuce, have a sodee pop and head for the mess. I usually get in just before last call and rarely have any issues. Usually get 35 runway, first dot and I'm at my vintage spot by a bit after 7. Screw the plane down, pop the tent, a beer and blow up the mattress and I'm in bed around 9-ish.

 

[flibmeister]

Welcome, FAA Controllers

By Jack J. Pelton, EAA Chairman

July 28, 2013 - For many years the first welcome that pilots arriving at Oshkosh receive is from FAA controllers. It is tradition that the tower controller greets each landing pilot with those magic words, "Welcome to Oshkosh." And I am so happy that the controllers are here again to welcome us all.

We have made it very clear that EAA believes that controlling traffic for AirVenture Oshkosh is a fundamental part of the FAA mission. Separating traffic in crowded airspace is what the FAA is tasked to do no matter if that crowded airspace is at O'Hare, LaGuardia, or during AirVenture Oshkosh.

That why we disagree with FAA leadership, who has decided to charge EAA nearly $450,000 to cover the expense of providing the more than 80 controllers needed to supervise traffic flow during the Oshkosh week. EAA members have asked their congressmen and senators to intervene on our behalf and convince the FAA that providing air traffic separation for any very busy airspace is the FAA's core mission.

But I want to make it crystal clear that our disagreement with the FAA is entirely with the top leadership of the agency in Washington, not controllers. The controllers working traffic here and across the country have absolutely nothing to do with setting FAA policy.

The controllers invited me to their pre-Oshkosh brat fry on Friday evening, and it was great to spend time with them. Many are pilots, and all are general aviation enthusiasts. They actually compete to be selected to work Oshkosh because so many more controllers want to come here than there are slots available.

Every controller I spoke with told me how much they enjoy working with pilots coming and going here at Oshkosh. They enjoy the unique challenges of moving so many airplanes. And they love the variety of airplanes they see here every day.

Each controller also told me that visiting with people here at Oshkosh between their duty periods is an annual highlight. They exchange flying stories, talk about where they are from, and immerse themselves in the whole Oshkosh experience. In other words, they are like you and me. They love airplanes and the people who fly, build, and restore them.

Even though all controllers are very experienced, they must start over as rookies at Oshkosh. Every year a small number of rookies are included in the group so they can learn the unique procedures the FAA and EAA have developed to move so many airplanes safely. It takes at least a couple years for a controller to gain the experience necessary to be fully qualified on a position at Oshkosh.

I admire the dedication and skill of these men and woman, and I know you do, too. We have welcomed the controllers every year with open arms, and we admire what they do, and how they make Oshkosh possible.

This year is no different. These are the same dedicated controllers we have always had and they deserve our respect and gratitude. Anyone who blames or makes comments to controllers here about Washington policy is out of line, and definitely out of bounds of the EAA spirit.

The FAA controllers are the first to welcome pilots to Oshkosh, and I want all of us to give them the same big welcome we always have. Oshkosh just couldn't function the way it does without their skill and dedication.

Welcome to Oshkosh to everyone in a pink shirt. And thank you, again.

 

[weirdjim]

Re: Welcome, FAA Controllers

By Jack J. Pelton, EAA Chairman

I find it very interesting and somewhat telling that the name you chose to be known by on this group is FLIBMEISTER, which can be broken down into two common terms FLIB and MEISTER.

MEISTER, of course, is the German spelling of MASTER, or boss.

FLIB is an acronym, unofficial of course, for what some rogue controllers call a general aviation aircraft that "pops up" asking for some service or another from approach, departure or center controllers. FLIB stands for F@#$!Ng Little Itinerant B@$#@rd, or a piddledy little airplane that they don't want to spend a lot of time with.

Just an observation, mindya...

Jim

 

[Brad Z]

Re: Welcome, FAA Controllers

I find it very interesting and somewhat telling that the name you chose to be known by on this group is FLIBMEISTER, which can be broken down into two common terms FLIB and MEISTER.

MEISTER, of course, is the German spelling of MASTER, or boss.

FLIB is an acronym, unofficial of course, for what some rogue controllers call a general aviation aircraft that "pops up" asking for some service or another from approach, departure or center controllers. FLIB stands for F@#$!Ng Little Itinerant B@$#@rd, or a piddledy little airplane that they don't want to spend a lot of time with.

Just an observation, mindya...

Jim

What's your point?

 

[weirdjim]

Re: Welcome, FAA Controllers

What's your point?

My point, obtuse though it may be, is that the name translates to "Master of the Small Annoying Airplanes", and the acronym FLIB is pejorative at best and derogatory at worst.

Jim

 

[Brad Z]

Re: Welcome, FAA Controllers

My point, obtuse though it may be, is that the name translates to "Master of the Small Annoying Airplanes", and the acronym FLIB is pejorative at best and derogatory at worst.

Jim

Perhaps he's embraced his FLIB status.

 

[Jay Honeck]

BTW: Flight Service no longer has a presence in the North 40. Apparently they have been furloughed or sequestered away, despite EAA's enormous bill.

Few have noticed, or cared. In a day and age with ADDS weather on your tablet, those guys would have been better utilized selling ice, anyway. Too bad they aren't.

There is an enormous, wall-sized petition here on the field, with thousands of signatures, opposing the fee. FWIW.

The controllers on the way in seemed extra-friendly this year, so I suppose you could say we got SOMETHING for the extra money. It was nice to hear.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3...

 

[AdamZ]

BTW: Flight Service no longer has a presence in the North 40. Apparently they have been furloughed or sequestered away, despite EAA's enormous bill.

Few have noticed, or cared. In a day and age with ADDS weather on your tablet, those guys would have been better utilized selling ice, anyway. Too bad they aren't.

There is an enormous, wall-sized petition here on the field, with thousands of signatures, opposing the fee. FWIW.

The controllers on the way in seemed extra-friendly this year, so I suppose you could say we got SOMETHING for the extra money. It was nice to hear.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3...

My favorite thing about the Flight Service Bldg last year was the AC ahhh that was nice!

 

[flibmeister]

Re: Welcome, FAA Controllers

My point, obtuse though it may be, is that the name translates to "Master of the Small Annoying Airplanes", and the acronym FLIB is pejorative at best and derogatory at worst.

Jim

You are misinformed. The term flib is neither pejorative or derogatory; it's simply controller jargon for airplanes with propellers. At O'Hare, 737's are "fluf's", 747's are "whales", propeller-driven airplanes are "flib's".

In my 20 years as a controller at O'Hare, I had a well-earned reputation for bending over backwards to help out the "funny little itty-bitties". That, and the fact that I commuted to work in my own GA airplane (Cessna 140, Warrior, then a Bonanza), earned me the nickname "flibmeister".

As Brad suggested, I not only embrace my "flib" status, I'm quite proud of it. I'm also proud of the many years I spent wearing the pink shirt at OSH and SNF-- which is why the ignorance and bigotry displayed throughout this thread tend to annoy me.

 

[weirdjim]

Re: Welcome, FAA Controllers

You are misinformed.

It won't be the first, nor the last time.

The term flib is neither pejorative or derogatory; it's simply controller jargon for airplanes with propellers. At O'Hare, 737's are "fluf's", 747's are "whales", propeller-driven airplanes are "flib's".

That may well be at O'Hare. West of the Continental Divide the term is derived from language I might not teach if my student is a preacher.

In my 20 years as a controller at O'Hare, I had a well-earned reputation for bending over backwards to help out the "funny little itty-bitties". That, and the fact that I commuted to work in my own GA airplane (Cessna 140, Warrior, then a Bonanza), earned me the nickname "flibmeister".

And I'll bet you got a chuckle about it behind your back in some of the rest of the world outside of ORD.

As Brad suggested, I not only embrace my "flib" status, I'm quite proud of it. I'm also proud of the many years I spent wearing the pink shirt at OSH and SNF-- which is why the ignorance and bigotry displayed throughout this thread tend to annoy me.

Ignorance is convertible with education; bigotry not so much.

Jim

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