Oshkosh Pink Shirts

[Jay Honeck]

I have always held OSH controllers (who proudly wore the coveted "pink shirt", denoting them as controllers of the busiest airspace in the world) in the highest regard.

I have always been told that these men and women were "volunteers" who "competed for the right" to work OSH.

Imagine my disgust when I discovered that these "volunteers" were nothing but overpaid bureaucrats at our convention. The only thing they were "volunteering" to do was to suck overtime pay in excess of $80/hour.

Imagine my dismay to discover that they are now fleecing EAA for nearly half a million bucks, to cover the expense of these charlatan "volunteers".

http://www.eaa.org/news/2013/2013-06-13_no-good-options-in-FAA-ATC-demands.asp

After 31 years at Oshkosh, pink shirts had better steer clear of me, lest they get an earful of truth. Those shirts will now be nothing but an easy way to mark those who are worthy of our scorn.

Oh, and the FSS people in the North 40? Sorry, you've been replaced by my tablet. Stay home. We don't need you, and EAA can't afford you.

Before the predictable cries of "blame the politicians", answer me this: What's stopping these people from REALLY volunteering? You know, like the thousands of other people who make Oshkosh work? I suppose they're too good for that, eh?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The Pinks should be paying for the privilege.

 

[jsstevens]

As I understand it, it is against the law for federal employee to work unpaid hours. The law was passed because political appointees were abusing the federal workforce. If I have time I'll try to look up the info to support.

John


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[flyingron]

Nobody from the FAA is volunteering at Oshkosh, regardless of their shirt color.

As pointed out, it is illegal for them to not get paid. The biggest problem is when they switched about a decade ago or more from it being an invitation from the year-round Oshkosh tower staff based on past performance during the show, to a bureaucratically issued perk.

It's not the pink shirts that are "fleecing" the EAA. It's a bunch of political stumpers much higher in the FAA. Frankly, the thing you should really be angry is that your TAX DOLLARS continue to pay for useless FAA services such as the 200 or so under utilized control towers. These were put on the chopping block not just because they were rightfully closable, but because the FAA thought the furor of that magnitude of closure would get them some political relief. When every body with a clue said "FINE, CLOSE THEM" they recanted and decided to make another proposal with more significant impact (proportional facility reductions across the board).

 

[AdamZ]

Jay, I hear your frustration with this and other things that our government is doing but I'm not sure that the controllers themselves are deserving of your scorn. Even EAA seems to state this in their posting,

"Our quarrel is not with the hard-working FAA employees who do their jobs at Oshkosh," he said. "We understand that AirVenture and other GA events are pawns in the larger sequestration political standoff, so it's important that we stand together and let those in Congress and the White House know the importance of aviation. We will do that in Oshkosh and we look forward to having those who love the freedom of flight stand with us." EAA

Controllers for the most part are hard working men and women. They deserve to be paid for their services by their employer ( the FAA). I didn't see anything in the EAA article stating that they were receiving overtime but
if they did work overtime why would that be any different than receiving overtime for working the Tower at PHL or DFW or NORCAL App?

I can understand that you might be angry at the FAA or the Gov't for trying to collect additional monies for something they are already paid for through fuel taxes but why be upset with the Controllers themselves?

 

[DanielH]

Like others have said, please don't direct your anger at the controllers. I know controllers who have worked Sun n' Fun and they do consider it a privilege to work such an event. However, it is not their decision whether or not they receive compensation.

I know that if I make to Oshkosh this year I will thank any controller I see. It's just not fair to blame the idiocracsy of the bureaucrats on the controllers.

 

[weilke]

Jay just needs a reason to be angry at 'the goverment', doesn't matter what the reason of the day is.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Like others have said, please don't direct your anger at the controllers. I know controllers who have worked Sun n' Fun and they do consider it a privilege to work such an event. However, it is not their decision whether or not they receive compensation.

I know that if I make to Oshkosh this year I will thank any controller I see. It's just not fair to blame the idiocracsy of the bureaucrats on the controllers.

Yeah don't blame the controllers they are just following orders.

 

[steingar]

This is a really unfortunate turn of events. The FAA has invented a new and likely permanent tax, and has bypassed Congress, the rightful taxing authority, to do so. I am surprised the EAA isn't working through their Representatives and Senators to nip this in the bud. It is patently illegal.

If the FAA gets away with this, how long before they start charging "user fees" to each and every one of us by fiat?

I am in agreement with the others, though. While I cannot heap sufficient scorn on the FAA, I would put none on the hard working controllers who make the 10,000 aircraft arrive at Oshkosh come off without a hitch.

 

[tonycondon]

i thought that I read somewhere that the FAA has been charging for temporary ATC services provided at other large events and until now has been giving EAA a free pass?

It's really too bad that the tower closures didn't happen, then there would be a large pool of qualified ATC folks availalbe to work, EAA could hire them directly, probably at a much lower cost.

 

[AcroBoy]

Isn't the EAA a private, for profit, organization? If so, why should taxpayers be spending $500K to support this when the dollars could obviously be used elsewhere?

It used to be considered an honor for a controller to be selected to work at OSH. Who would do this for free and take on the liability risk personally? Who insures we have qualified, trained, and safe controllers?

Who among us would perform surgery for free, provide free legal advice and represent somewhat at trial, design a building, engineer and maintain an IT system, run a hotel and give away free rooms? Why is it a surprise that the controllers get paid for their high quality professional services, and why is it a surprise that we should expect a private organization to pay for those services?

 

[JB1842]

As I understand it, it is against the law for federal employee to work unpaid hours. The law was passed because political appointees were abusing the federal workforce. If I have time I'll try to look up the info to support.

John


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I've worked a few unpaid hours. I can only make so much per pay period (and don't confuse this with me crying I'm a poor government employee). I've worked 12 hour, 21 day details where I've maxed out and worked a shift or two without getting paid. And political appointees are still abusing the federal workforce. Ask me about my boss. But even though my taxes do go to paying for the FAA budget, I still think that a private organization should pay for the extra work being done by the government that is to the benefit of the private organization.

 

[wabower]

Or Apple.

Or insurance agents.

Or subcontractors.

Or avionics shops.

Or Fixed-pitch props.

Jay just needs a reason to be angry at 'the goverment', doesn't matter what the reason of the day is.

 

[AdamZ]

Isn't the EAA a private, for profit, organization? If so, why should taxpayers be spending $500K to support this when the dollars could obviously be used elsewhere?

It used to be considered an honor for a controller to be selected to work at OSH. Who would do this for free and take on the liability risk personally? Who insures we have qualified, trained, and safe controllers?

Who among us would perform surgery for free, provide free legal advice and represent somewhat at trial, design a building, engineer and maintain an IT system, run a hotel and give away free rooms? Why is it a surprise that the controllers get paid for their high quality professional services, and why is it a surprise that we should expect a private organization to pay for those services?

By supplying controllers, the FAA is supporting pilots who pay taxes that pay for the services that the FAA provides. So when a pilot fills up with fuel at Osh and pays tax on that fuel, he or she is paying for the service. to bump up his or her ticket price $5 or $10 or what ever it may be to pay for the controllers is charging him twice.

As for who would perform free services, well I know that I do in my legal practice quite a bit but I would never expect a controller to pay his or her own freight and take off a week to donate it. That is asking a lot ( too much ) IMHO.

 

[weilke]

Who among us would perform surgery for free, provide free legal advice and represent somewhat at trial, design a building, engineer and maintain an IT system, run a hotel and give away free rooms? i

Don't know about you, but every day people do exacly that, they volunteer their professional services in furtherance of a community ot charitable cause.

 

[Badger]

I've volunteered to design a building. And I will again. (and I know close friends that perform surgery for free, in fact they pay their travel just to get the opportunity to help those less privileged than us.)

I know EAA volunteers that donate their time for 30 days prior to the start of the event. No pay, none, naada. 30 days!

I don't expect controllers to volunteer, though I'm sure many gladly would.

 

[wabower]

Yeah, I wish I had a dollar for every . . . oh, never mind.

Don't know about you, but every day people do exacly that, they volunteer their professional services in furtherance of a community ot charitable cause.

 

[jtheune]

Isn't the EAA a private, for profit, organization? If so, why should taxpayers be spending $500K to support this when the dollars could obviously be used elsewhere?

It used to be considered an honor for a controller to be selected to work at OSH. Who would do this for free and take on the liability risk personally? Who insures we have qualified, trained, and safe controllers?

Who among us would perform surgery for free, provide free legal advice and represent somewhat at trial, design a building, engineer and maintain an IT system, run a hotel and give away free rooms? Why is it a surprise that the controllers get paid for their high quality professional services, and why is it a surprise that we should expect a private organization to pay for those services?

EAA is not a private for profit org. It's a non profit open to the public.

 

[rsleeds]

Or Apple.

Or insurance agents.

Or subcontractors.

Or avionics shops.

Or Fixed-pitch props.

Or people who think staying in any chain hotel is a good thing

 

[AcroBoy]

Does the additional tax revenue generated at the EAA go to offset the cost of the controllers?

Should the government be subsidizing activities of not for profit organizations when it suits our own narrow interests? What if it were a NOW convention, Planned Parenthood, the NRA, or a KKK rally? What if the same funds were used to rebuild schools and infrastructure in a city struck by a tornado?

Is it reasonable to expect controllers to assume the risk of controlling airplanes on their own? Who protects them from liability risk if they are working as unpaid volunteers?

 

[weilke]

The real question is whether EAA really needs all the pink-shirts that are on the grounds or whether some of the marshalling and ground control functions could be fulfilled by EAA volunteers (to the extent they dont require the 'authority' of being a certified controller).

I dont think we can expect the controllers to work on their time, but given that there is supposedly a multi-year waiting list for controllers to go to Oshkosh, I suspect they would still get a good number willing to go if that was the deal.
Now, with per-diems and overtime, it is probably an attractive week for those 'volunteers'. Who knows, maybe the list would dry up if they had to do it for a set of free tickets and a place in the bunkhouse.

 

[kyleb]

The issue comes back to the FAA's mission. If the agency is supposed to promote aviation safety, staffing and attending Osh should be an FAA function.

This is clearly a political move to establish a precedent for user fees and to stick it to "small" GA, which we all know is a huge security threat promulgated by a bunch of old, wealthy, white guys.

 

[weilke]

Does the additional tax revenue generated at the EAA go to offset the cost of the controllers?

I dont know that. I do know that a lot of small airports along the way see more fuel sales in the week before and after OSH than they see in other months. The excise tax impact of the event goes way beyond the fuel sold at AirVenture. For a lot of folks in the experimental community, this is their one big trip every year.

I am planning to go this year, it'll be about $35 worth of excise tax to the FAA for the entire trip. If it wasn't for OSH, I wouldn't give them that money.

Yeah, it's double-dipping.

 

[Brad Z]

My opinion: If I were EAA, I'd be in serious talks with Midwest or one of the other Private ATC providers. I'm sure they could provide the same service for a fraction of the price and beat FAA at their own game. Then battle the charges in court.

Anger at the controllers is misplaced. Jay, do you know any controllers personally? I think you'd feel differently if you did.

As far as "volunteer" (i.e. unpaid) controllers...I suspect only a small percentage of them are so devoted to aviation and the EAA that they would be willing to work unpaid. ATC is a specialized skill and there's no way you be able to get a sufficient number of people to commit for that period of time, nor would EAA want to risk the possiblity of volunteer no-shows. The fact that they're will to deal with thousands of FLIBs for a week is good enough to me. I hope you publically (this is a public forum after all) apologize to the controllers who, like many worthy public servants, are caught in the middle.

After 31 years at Oshkosh, pink shirts had better steer clear of me, lest they get an earful of truth. Those shirts will now be nothing but an easy way to mark those who are worthy of our scorn.

Jay, I've been following you and your posts here, and on the News groups, since the 90s. I've never met you personally. I was hoping to make it to OSH this year and stop in on your Weds night gathering. After this last comment, I think I may respectfully pass.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Worthy public servants my a55. Patco the whole FAA. The EAA either needs to kick the FAA out of their party entirely or suck it up and pay whatever their overlords ask.

 

[wabower]

How do you kick them out when they sign the waiver?

Worthy public servants my a55. Patco the whole FAA. The EAA either needs to kick the FAA out of their party entirely or suck it up and pay whatever their overlords ask.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I can understand that you might be angry at the FAA or the Gov't for trying to collect additional monies for something they are already paid for through fuel taxes but why be upset with the Controllers themselves?

Because they are where the rubber hits the road?

Because their insanely expensive pay, benefits, and retirement plan has made them unaffordable?

Because they have never been "volunteers" at OSH, as they've always pawned themselves as?

Because I don't have any other contact or influence with the Ruling Class?

Just a few reasons.

As for this "law" against them volunteering? I suspect if the controller's union leadership stepped up with the offer, Congress would make a special dispensation for OSH.

I'm sure that never even crossed their mind. :banghead:

 

[Jay Honeck]

The real question is whether EAA really needs all the pink-shirts that are on the grounds or whether some of the marshalling and ground control functions could be fulfilled by EAA volunteers (to the extent they dont require the 'authority' of being a certified controller).

I dont think we can expect the controllers to work on their time, but given that there is supposedly a multi-year waiting list for controllers to go to Oshkosh, I suspect they would still get a good number willing to go if that was the deal.
Now, with per-diems and overtime, it is probably an attractive week for those 'volunteers'. Who knows, maybe the list would dry up if they had to do it for a set of free tickets and a place in the bunkhouse.

I don't think you guys realize the extent to which we are being fleeced by these people. I live on an island that is AWASH with retired government employees who are younger than me -- and I'm only 54.

I am friends with two "retired" air traffic controllers, both younger than me. Both living a lavish lifestyle most of can't ever hope to match.

Surely some of these fine people would volunteer their experience and service at OSH? Oh, wait -- I will bet that their union has made THAT "illegal", too.

Bottom line: Sequester has not cut the fuel taxes we all pay to support air traffic control. My disdain for our Ruling Class aside, THAT is the salient point that needs to be addressed.

In other words: If you're going to charge a user's fee, eliminate the per-gallon tax on avgas. Fat chance.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Jay, I've been following you and your posts here, and on the News groups, since the 90s. I've never met you personally. I was hoping to make it to OSH this year and stop in on your Weds night gathering. After this last comment, I think I may respectfully pass.

Brad, let me know when you've run a few small businesses, and report back. Let me know how frustrated and disheartened you get, after writing check after check to our rulers, to the tune of $1.35 for every $1 we pay out in payroll.

That's right. The prime beneficiary of this hotel, and all of our hard work, is...the government. For the 13th consecutive year.

Let me know how happy you are when you then read that a wonderful event you've attended your entire adult life is being bent over and extorted by these very same people, as if what they've taken from us is not enough.

It is never enough. There is no "enough".

Do I feel sorry for the individual controllers? Some of them, you bet. That doesn't make them any less complicit in what is happening. They need to step up and make their voices heard, for the good of the event. They need to volunteer their time, just like the thousands of other people who make OSH work do, year after year.

 

[Jay Honeck]

How do you kick them out when they sign the waiver?

Therein lies the rub. IMHO, OSH would run just fine with volunteers. The FISK approach is simplicity itself, easier than landing at a local pancake breakfast.

BUT...the FAA signs the waiver that allows it to happen. And that same FAA now has a knife at EAA's throat, extorting money in exchange for a waiver.

Gee, I wonder if the FAA head will do the usual "Talk with Administrator" forum this year?

 

[wabower]

I don't think you guys realize the extent to which we are being fleeced by these people. I live on an island that is AWASH with retired government employees who are younger than me -- and I'm only 54.

Irrelevant to your histrionics. Do any other people on your island have pension plans? Isn't a secure retirement one of the primary factors cited by government employees?

I am friends with two "retired" air traffic controllers, both younger than me. Both living a lavish lifestyle most of can't ever hope to match.

So why didn't you sign up when you were 24?

Surely some of these fine people would volunteer their experience and service at OSH? Oh, wait -- I will bet that their union has made THAT "illegal", too.

So is your beef with the pink shirts or are you ****ed that they chose to be unionized? If you worked for the FAA would you want a CBA?

Bottom line: Sequester has not cut the fuel taxes we all pay to support air traffic control. My disdain for our Ruling Class aside, THAT is the salient point that needs to be addressed.

Then why didn't you address it in a logical way rather than with your tabloid-style rant?

In other words: If you're going to charge a user's fee, eliminate the per-gallon tax on avgas. Fat chance.

Or STFU unless you understand the issues.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Or STFU unless you understand the issues.

Boy, that's for sure.

How bad does it have to get before we all stand together and place blame where the blame is due: On the Federal government and its bloated employee base?

Think about it -- they are carving us off and killing us, one by one. First, they went after bizjets, demonizing business travel to the point where large corporations shut down flight departments, wholesale, to avoid looking "rich" -- even when it made financial sense to fly GA.

They attack our ability to keep airports open, making it almost impossible to build hangars and extend runways. To do so is so horrendously, artificially expensive that most airports just shrug and give up trying.

Airspace and regulations continue to tighten, even as the size of GA continues to plummet. With so few planes flying, control towers stand idle all across the country -- and we can't close them. Instead, we get mandates for ADS-B that will continue to drive the common man out of flying.

We are being randomly detained and searched by the Feds at GA airports, and being told that "pilots have no rights".

And now, they are attacking GA with a full frontal assault on Oshkosh -- OSHKOSH! -- and STILL there are those amongst us who refuse to condemn the instigators of this crime?

With GA supporters like this, we don't need enemies. We will just continue to point fingers at each other, fiddling while Rome burns around us.

 

[JOhnH]

Don't know about you, but every day people do exacly that, they volunteer their professional services in furtherance of a community ot charitable cause.

I own a business and I often provide free services to clients for one reason or another. Sometimes it is voluntary and sometimes it is just because I don't feel like taking the deadbeat to court.

But I am not allowed to let anyone volunteer to work for free for me because it is a violation of State and Federal Labor Laws. I have to pay AT LEAST minimum wage. I often have people get mad at me because their daughters want more than anything to volunteer to work in a veterinary hospital but I can't let them.

Conceivably it would be legal for the "volunteer' controllers to work for minimum wage for EAA, but it is not legal for them to work for free.

When I hold a weekend "free spay/neuter" clinic for local pet charities, I have to pay my staff full salary + overtime. But they still have to "volunteer" to give up their Saturdays (to get paid that overtime). The doctors actually do work those weekends for free because they are on salary and they do volunteer to do that.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I own a business and I often provide free services to clients for one reason or another. Sometimes it is voluntary and sometimes it is just because I don't feel like taking the deadbeat to court.

But I am not allowed to let anyone volunteer to work for free for me because it is a violation of State and Federal Labor Laws. I have to pay AT LEAST minimum wage. I often have people get mad at me because their daughters want more than anything to volunteer to work in a veterinary hospital but I can't let them.

Conceivably it would be legal for the "volunteer' controllers to work for minimum wage for EAA, but it is not legal for them to work for free.

When I hold a weekend "free spay/neuter" clinic for local pet charities, I have to pay my staff full salary + overtime. But they still have to "volunteer" to give up their Saturdays (to get paid that overtime). The doctors actually do work those weekends for free because they are on salary and they do volunteer to do that.

I think the main issue is that you are a "for profit" business. I'm pretty sure it's legal for EAA to accept volunteer labor, since I personally know dozens of pilots who have volunteered to work at OSH over the last three decades.

 

[Jay Honeck]

It's not the pink shirts that are "fleecing" the EAA. It's a bunch of political stumpers much higher in the FAA. Frankly, the thing you should really be angry is that your TAX DOLLARS continue to pay for useless FAA services such as the 200 or so under utilized control towers. These were put on the chopping block not just because they were rightfully closable, but because the FAA thought the furor of that magnitude of closure would get them some political relief. When every body with a clue said "FINE, CLOSE THEM" they recanted and decided to make another proposal with more significant impact (proportional facility reductions across the board).

Well put, Ron.

When closing control towers was met with a shrug, even from pilots, they had to go back to the drawing board to find something else that would rile us.

Attacking the sacred ground of Oshkosh -- the Mecca of the GA world -- is like a knee to the groin. They now have our undivided attention. They now hope we will all call our Congress critters, demanding that their funding be restored.

I, for one, ain't falling for it. This isn't about money, this is about power, exerted through extortion.

 

[DanielH]

Isn't the EAA a private, for profit, organization? If so, why should taxpayers be spending $500K to support this when the dollars could obviously be used elsewhere?

It used to be considered an honor for a controller to be selected to work at OSH. Who would do this for free and take on the liability risk personally? Who insures we have qualified, trained, and safe controllers?

Who among us would perform surgery for free, provide free legal advice and represent somewhat at trial, design a building, engineer and maintain an IT system, run a hotel and give away free rooms? Why is it a surprise that the controllers get paid for their high quality professional services, and why is it a surprise that we should expect a private organization to pay for those services?

A lot of people do. This is should be down your alley. Great program.

http://www.surgeryonsunday.org/

 

[Jay Honeck]

A lot of people do. This is should be down your alley. Great program.

http://www.surgeryonsunday.org/

Oh, and by the way -- one day per year ALL of our hotel rooms are free. On Veteran's Day each year, all you need to do is show that you are either current or retired military, and your room is 100%, stone cold free.

Been doing it since we opened.

 

[DanielH]

Oh, and by the way -- one day per year ALL of our hotel rooms are free. On Veteran's Day each year, all you need to do is show that you are either current or retired military, and your room is 100%, stone cold free.

Been doing it since we opened.

I'm glad you support those who are serving or who have served. That comment was not directed towards you hence why I quoted someone else.

It's just not fair to be angry at the controllers. You know as well as I do that the decision is way above their head and even if they did decide to donate their services as it has been said, they're not allowed to.

 

[JOhnH]

I think the main issue is that you are a "for profit" business. I'm pretty sure it's legal for EAA to accept volunteer labor, since I personally know dozens of pilots who have volunteered to work at OSH over the last three decades.

You are probably right. Jim N in an earlier post asked the question:

Isn't the EAA a private, for profit, organization?

so I guess I interpreted that to be a statement of fact. But if they are a non-profit, they may be able to use volunteer help.

It is a different rant, but there are government sponsored, non-profits using volunteer labor that are competing with me and taking my business. And people accuse me of gouging because I cost more than the subsidized charity they receive.

 

[Jay Honeck]

You are probably right. Jim N in an earlier post asked the question:



so I guess I interpreted that to be a statement of fact. But if they are a non-profit, they may be able to use volunteer help.

It is a different rant, but there are government sponsored, non-profits using volunteer labor that are competing with me and taking my business. And people accuse me of gouging because I cost more than the subsidized charity they receive.

Oh, don't I know THAT feeling! I've been battling government subsidized competitors since 1997.

It's so unfair, it makes you want to punch walls. First, they fleece you of usurious taxes, then they give the money they've stolen to your competitors. Worse, NO ONE knows it's happening, because the media has been neutered.

But you're right -- that's a different rant. It's symptomatic of the same cancer that's eating GA, though.