Oshkosh Pink Shirts

[Velocity173]

Why do you need $450,000 and dozens of pink shirts when all it takes is one Roncachamp and a handheld radio. Pay the guy 10 grand for the whole event and be done with it.

 

[Brad Z]

Gee, it must be that three-decade lie the pink shirts have promulgated on us, about how they all "volunteered" and "competed" to work at Airventure?

All they "volunteered" for was to find a slick way to get paid overtime to attend Airventure. Nice.

I guess I should have known that a "civil servant" would never do anything out of charity?

Your head may just explode when you find out that the 2.2 million active and reserve soldiers of our all-volunteer military get pay checks too...and nice pensions...

No more free stays for those greedy bastards, I presume?

 

[nddons]

EAA needs an abandoned air base. There is one North of here (in Texas) that is completely uncontrolled, and has an 11,000' runway. It would be perfect for Airventure.

There would still be RVs that couldn't hit the green dot. :wink2:

 

[Jay Honeck]

Your head may just explode when you find out that the 2.2 million active and reserve soldiers of our all-volunteer military get pay checks too...and nice pensions...

No more free stays for those greedy bastards, I presume?

Comparing civil servant bureaucrats to our professional, all-volunteer military is an insult to everyone who wears the uniform -- including my son. 2nd LT, US Army. Also Iowa National Guard.

 

[Jay Honeck]

There would still be RVs that couldn't hit the green dot. :wink2:

What's funny, is that will prolly be me this year. We take delivery of our -8A next week, and start transition training immediately, weather permitting.

It's my turn to fly in to OSH this year. When you see the Ferrari red RV-8A floating, and floating, and floating, 1000' past that green dot, y'all feel free to wave!

 

[nddons]

What's funny, is that will prolly be me this year. We take delivery of our -8A next week, and start transition training immediately, weather permitting.

It's my turn to fly in to OSH this year. When you see the Ferrari red RV-8A floating, and floating, and floating, 1000' past that green dot, y'all feel free to wave!

Two years ago I double shifted on the Flightline on the Saturday or Sunday before opening Monday, and spent 6 hours within 50 feet of the green dot. One of the most fun days in my aviation career, and the only thing I flew that day was my F-150.

 

[iflyforfun]

"Stay clear of Class D"? Really?

I think not.

Would it be a smaller Airventure? No doubt. Would it be worth it, in the long run?

Yep.

This is a TERRIBLE precedent to set. We will never hear the end of user's fees now.

I just don't understand how people don't see how a short-term hit can lead to a long-term win. GM didn't get it and caved to the UAW every time (easier to give in short-term) ... result, bankruptcy. Caterpillar never gave an inch and fought the union strongly at every negotiation (man, that is hard) ... result, UAW goes on strike and profits INCREASE every quarter for a year until the union comes back with a WORSE agreement than they walked away from. Take a look at CATs stock versus GMs. There are lots of reasons, but one is that CAT showed LEADERSHIP (something my EAA clearly doesn't understand) and took a long-term view. Oh yeah, and the UAW continues to do well in Peoria ... the management didn't let the union leadership screw their own kids out of good jobs.

So, let the FAA crush AirVenture for a year. See how the residents of Oshkosh react when the FAA kills the cash cow and the FAA refuses to do their JOB. Wait until the Oshkosh Mayor beats on the Governor, Senators and Congressman.

Heck, take the beating this year ... make the point. We pay our dues (fuel taxes) and expect the government to do its damn job. Don't play by their rules. Let the good folks of Oshkosh work with us to beat the morons we elect into order. Take a stand for goodness sake.

I wrote the EAA a REALLY nasty e-mail. Twenty years of membership and they just sold us all down the river to make sure they collect their ticket receipts. I copied Mike Hongisto, President - EAA Chapter 1221 (hongistomichael@aol.com) and suggest you all do the same.

 

[denverpilot]

My trip to OSH was pretty iffy this year. This may be a good year to "vote with my dollars" and go enjoy something else. That or tow a trailer out to Scholler instead of flying in, but that seems like a cop-out.

 

[flibmeister]

Comparing civil servant bureaucrats to our professional, all-volunteer military is an insult to everyone who wears the uniform

Comparing every controller wearing a pink shirt to civil servant bureaucrats is pretty insulting, too-- especially considering that a lot of them were wearing military uniforms prior to their civil employment.

But, at least you've acknowledged that you DO understand that the word "volunteer" can mean different things in different situations. Now, how about admitting that you've actually learned a other few things in this thread as well? For example:

1. That Oshkosh controllers still don't get paid at overtime rates, no matter how many times you argue that they do.

2. That they do compete for those much coveted positions, just as you've always believed.

3. That their incentive to bid the job has everything to do with airplanes, and nothing to do with avarice.

4. That the prohibition that prevents them from working without pay is determined and enforced by FAA management (and their Congressional overloads), not their union, and certainly not the controllers themselves.

5. That even after they retire, it's still not possible to volunteer their services without pay, because lawyers and insurance companies rule the world.


If you haven't learned all of those things by now, you need to add another phrase to your bitter, irascible, old man repertoire: while "get off my grass" is funny, "don't bother me with facts" would appear to be more accurate.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Two years ago I double shifted on the Flightline on the Saturday or Sunday before opening Monday, and spent 6 hours within 50 feet of the green dot. One of the most fun days in my aviation career, and the only thing I flew that day was my F-150.

That would be so cool!

One of the few rock-solid retirement goals I have -- assuming I can EVER retire -- is to volunteer at OSH. For, like, a month.

 

[Jay Honeck]

My trip to OSH was pretty iffy this year. This may be a good year to "vote with my dollars" and go enjoy something else. That or tow a trailer out to Scholler instead of flying in, but that seems like a cop-out.

What? This year, above ALL others, we need to show support for the event.

This FAA beat-down could KILL Airventure, plain and simple. If the FAA wants half a million bucks now, it will be a million in three years. There is no way the event can survive that.

We all need to fly in, and MAKE OUR VOICES HEARD. Trust me, every pink-shirted controller is going to be hearing from me -- and I don't really care who thinks it's not their "fault". They are the only damned contact we've got with the FAA, so let THEM ***** at their bosses after 400,000 people lay into them for a week.

For once, let's make the shiite roll UP hill.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Comparing every controller wearing a pink shirt to civil servant bureaucrats is pretty insulting, too-- especially considering that a lot of them were wearing military uniforms prior to their civil employment.

But, at least you've acknowledged that you DO understand that the word "volunteer" can mean different things in different situations. Now, how about admitting that you've actually learned a other few things in this thread as well? For example:

1. That Oshkosh controllers still don't get paid at overtime rates, no matter how many times you argue that they do.

2. That they do compete for those much coveted positions, just as you've always believed.

3. That their incentive to bid the job has everything to do with airplanes, and nothing to do with avarice.

4. That the prohibition that prevents them from working without pay is determined and enforced by FAA management (and their Congressional overloads), not their union, and certainly not the controllers themselves.

5. That even after they retire, it's still not possible to volunteer their services without pay, because lawyers and insurance companies rule the world.


If you haven't learned all of those things by now, you need to add another phrase to your bitter, irascible, old man repertoire: while "get off my grass" is funny, "don't bother me with facts" would appear to be more accurate.

Oh, yes -- I've learned ALL of those things. And it's all so very convenient for the FAA employees, isn't it?

1. They can't be expected to volunteer -- even after they retire! -- because other government employees have made rules that made it illegal for them (and themselves, of course) to do so. Golly!

2. In fact, they can't do ANY work without "compensation". I'll bet every private sector employee in the nation would like THAT little rule -- it would get them out of having to do any unpleasant volunteer work.

Man, I could have sure used that excuse when management used to pressure us into volunteering for United Way stuff, and American Cancer Society stuff, and...

I'll bet the controller's union went the distance fighting against THAT rule, right?

No? So they like the rule, probably quietly fought for it, when it was instituted...but we shouldn't BLAME them for it? Gotcha.

3. They can't be held accountable for what's happening, because it's not their fault. Even though they want us to believe that they are highly skilled professionals, they claim that they, and their unions, are COMPLETELY powerless in the face of what's happening. Even though you can't fart in a control tower without the union having a voice in what goes on.

How lovely. How typical. Same old, same old. Don't blame us, we're just soldiers. It's all the big, bad boss's fault.

It's all so....neat. The ONLY people we actually have contact with in the FAA are conveniently not the people with any power or authority?

Well, okay, whom SHOULD we blame? Who do we blame when the funding for ATC has not changed, yet the service has been curtailed? At what level, precisely, does the blame lie for this malarkey?

And DON'T say "Congress", or "the Republicans", or even "Obama", because we ALL know that is total Bravo Sierra. The FAA actually has MORE money for fiscal 2013 than they did for 2012 -- the "cuts", if you can call them that, were minimal and in any event did NOT effect the tax revenue from avgas, the primary source of ATC funding.

So...you seem to know the inner workings of the FAA. Accepting that controllers are blameless in this cluster f*ck...who DO we blame for this lunacy?

 

[denverpilot]

What? This year, above ALL others, we need to show support for the event.

Why? To pay the FAA bill of an organization who lost its spine?

Talking to pink shirts will lead exactly nowhere. Go corner whoever gets off the FAA jet. Let us know if they let you within ten feet of them.

Or if the ****ed off crowd at the "Ask the Administrator" forum isn't fed a huge cock and told to hold still for the money shot.

Oshkosh costs FAA no more than it did last year. Their job is to handle air traffic in our country, including large pre-planned events, which generate air traffic. If they can't handle the job, they're broken.

As Wayne said, the best chance of stopping it is via Congress, and I hang no hopes on that, with other organizations (who aren't aviation fuel tax savvy), having already set mass precedent for the FAA charging them blood money at gunpoint, and them paying it.

EAA botched it. Flat out fumbled the ball. If leadership is by example, they just showed you that you should roll over on user fees. Period.

Either the government run air traffic system can handle the traffic that's always there every year, or it's additional charges are as discriminatory as the IRS debacle.

EAA could start by asking how much it'll cost to fly the FAA jet in, and request that it kindly stay elsewhere and the resulting savings be applied to their bill.

 

[flibmeister]

So...you seem to know the inner workings of the FAA. Accepting that controllers are blameless in this cluster f*ck...who DO we blame for this lunacy?

I don't know a damn thing about the inner workings of the FAA. But I know a bit about the inner workings of the ATC operation at Oshkosh-- and I can tell you that the folks in the pink shirts have no more say about how this fiasco has and will play out than you do.

BTW, there are hundreds of controllers, both active duty and retired, that volunteer regularly not just at Oshkosh, but at SnF, Copperstate, Arlington, and all of the other fly-ins. Of course, since they're prohibited from working as controllers, they just pick up garbage, park airplanes, do whatever else needs to be done. They won't be wearing pink shirts, but I'm sure you can find a few if you ask around-- hate for you to miss an opportunity to heap unearned scorn on them, too.

 

[Velocity173]

So how many people out there would use leave, pay for transportation, lodging and food to work at OSH? They're not coming in because they love RVs. They're there to work, quite stressful work at that. Now, I can understand at looking at the cost and see if someone's getting overpaid here but they should get paid something for their time.

And Jay, I appreciate what you do for us veterans but we aren't any better than other govt workers. Fact is most people joined the military for job training and benefits, not to be a patriot. Look at when they canceled TA earlier this year and you'll see servicemembers complaining that they joined specifically for college benefits and now they're furious that it's being withheld. As far as retiring early, we retire just as early as controllers and have just as good benefits. Free medical, dental, college (flight training) and of course a monthly check. All at the young age of 38. Oh yeah, then you have the dirty little secret of VA disability. Do a google search of "PTSD Fraud" and you'll be amazed at what you'll find. I'm actually a one perecenter; someone who retires out of the military and doesn't claim any disability. I must be blessed with good genes I guess.

So while I agree Jay that controllers have a good deal going there are plenty of other govt employees making just as much and doing less work. I think the money controllers make reflects the level of responsibility they have. No more or less than the responsibility of an airline captain.

 

[weilke]

Whenever people biotch an moan about how much goverment employees make, I wonder why they didn't get themselves a goverment gig if it is so enviable ?

 

[Jay Honeck]

Whenever people biotch an moan about how much goverment employees make, I wonder why they didn't get themselves a goverment gig if it is so enviable ?

This is just my opinion, but I think being a parasite is unappealing to most people. I know I would chew glass before working for the government in a non-military position -- but perhaps that's just me?

And before you go off, yes, I know there are some jobs that must be done by government. That doesn't change the fact that they exist solely because they must, and the rest of us must pay for it, or go to jail.

But this is far afield from the topic of this thread. The topic is what to do about the freaking FAA and Oshkosh this year?

Obviously kidnapping and beating the pink shirts has been voted down by the group. Now what? Is there really ANYTHING we, as a group, can do?

 

[nddons]

This is just my opinion, but I think being a parasite is unappealing to most people. I know I would chew glass before working for the government in a non-military position -- but perhaps that's just me?

And before you go off, yes, I know there are some jobs that must be done by government. That doesn't change the fact that they exist solely because they must, and the rest of us must pay for it, or go to jail.

But this is far afield from the topic of this thread. The topic is what to do about the freaking FAA and Oshkosh this year?

Obviously kidnapping and beating the pink shirts has been voted down by the group. Now what? Is there really ANYTHING we, as a group, can do?

It may mean squat, but it would be interesting if the exact date, time, and location of the "Ask the Administrator" session at Oshkosh was WIDELY disseminated on this board, the Blue Board, etc. so we can all hear for ourselves what they say, and they can hear us.

 

[JB1842]

Two years ago I double shifted on the Flightline on the Saturday or Sunday before opening Monday, and spent 6 hours within 50 feet of the green dot. One of the most fun days in my aviation career, and the only thing I flew that day was my F-150.

I have spare seat in a C-150 if you want. My wife won't fly in with me, and she wants me to fly with another pilot.

 

[flibmeister]

This is just my opinion, but I think being a parasite is unappealing to most people.

So, every single non-military government employee, regardless of position or qualifications, is a parasite? Not a bit of redeeming value in any of them?

There's a word for people that think like that...

big·ot

noun \ˈbi-gət\


Definition of BIGOT

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance.

 

[Jay Honeck]

It may mean squat, but it would be interesting if the exact date, time, and location of the "Ask the Administrator" session at Oshkosh was WIDELY disseminated on this board, the Blue Board, etc. so we can all hear for ourselves what they say, and they can hear us.

You don't REALLY think the administrator will dare to show his face at OSH this year, do you?

 

[Jay Honeck]

So, every single non-military government employee, regardless of position or qualifications, is a parasite? Not a bit of redeeming value in any of them?

There's a word for people that think like that...

big·ot

noun \bi-gt\


Definition of BIGOT

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance.

Sorry, my degree was in English -- there's no need to define common words. The term "bigot" is inaccurate in the extreme.

You, however, really should not take offense at the government being called a "parasite", as the modern federal government fits the dictionary definition to a "T":

*****************************
Parasite. An animal or plant that lives in or on another (the host) from which it obtains nourishment. The host does not benefit from the association and is often harmed by it.
*****************************

Ask EAA for clarification, if needed. They just learned the hard way what a parasitic infection really costs.

 

[weilke]

You, however, really should not take offense at the government being called a "parasite", as the modern federal government fits the dictionary definition to a "T":

You called anyone who works for the goverment a parasite. I understand why someone who does honest work for the goverment would take offense to that.

 

[Brad Z]

You called anyone who works for the goverment a parasite. I understand why someone who does honest work for the goverment would take offense to that.

I wonder how many of Jay's hotel guests are current or former government employees?

Just seems kind of strange that someone who relies on earning a living by providing a service to a diverse population would be so willing to trumpet his ignorance and intolerance on the internet...

 

[nddons]

I have spare seat in a C-150 if you want. My wife won't fly in with me, and she wants me to fly with another pilot.

Josh, good to hear from you. Sounds like you're enjoying your new ride.

I sincerely appreciate the invite, and would love to take you up on the offer, but I'm pretty sure I would put any C-150 over gross.

Let me know when you're going up to KOSH though. We should connect.

 

[nddons]

You don't REALLY think the administrator will dare to show his face at OSH this year, do you?

A TEA Party guy can dream, can't he? :wink2:

 

[denverpilot]

Whenever people biotch an moan about how much goverment employees make, I wonder why they didn't get themselves a goverment gig if it is so enviable ?

Do you want a real answer to that?

I looked into working in some areas I have knowledge in and talked to folks doing it. Their number one complaint was about "that one person" in their department who couldn't be fired and ruined everyone else's days with poor work and an even poorer attitude.

We may see some of that from time to time in the Private sector, but eventually it self-corrects at a layoff when the person is put on the hit list, or they really do get fired.

Last thing I would want to do everyday is go somewhere where someone I had to work with has an attitude problem so bad the entire staff and the boss are aware of it, and are powerless to take any action.

That's WAY worse than a troublemaker who's just gotten away with it for a while, knowing they'll eventually get what they deserve.

 

[wabower]

My best-paying job offer out of college was the FBI special agent gig. They payed about $150/mo more than Big 8 accounting firms, but couldn't provide any assurances of the offices to which I would be assigned. When they mentioned the docks of Philly as one of the possibilities, I declined and adiosed.

 

[JB1842]

Josh, good to hear from you. Sounds like you're enjoying your new ride.

I sincerely appreciate the invite, and would love to take you up on the offer, but I'm pretty sure I would put any C-150 over gross.

Let me know when you're going up to KOSH though. We should connect.

I plan on being there all week.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I wonder how many of Jay's hotel guests are current or former government employees?

Just seems kind of strange that someone who relies on earning a living by providing a service to a diverse population would be so willing to trumpet his ignorance and intolerance on the internet...

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. People who work in government do so because we, the people, have decided to carve off a little bit of our productivity to pay for a service that can't be rendered in any other way.

By definition, these services are not productive. If they were, private businesses would be clamoring to do them.

This makes those jobs parasitic on the larger society -- period, end of story. If you can't accept that reality, and work in government, I respectfully suggest that it's time to get a job in the private sector.

 

[docmirror]

Thank goodness we don't get all the govt we pay for.

I was sad to see EAA cave in like that. However, I can imagine what the FAA said, either directly or indirectly; 'no pay, no play'. As in, no acro waivers, no deviations to JO ops, etc. That would basically kill much of the event. Looks like they used the Big Stick at other venues to kill them as well, and in the big scheme of things, they knew that EAA needed the FAA(big brother) more than the FAA needed the EAA.

A real Ayn Rand success story right here.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Here is AvWeb's take on EAA's ordeal:
http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwebInsider_AirVentureGouge_208855-1.html

This is so disheartening. The longer I think about it, the worse this gets. EAA just knuckled under to government extortion, kicking the door wide open for the parasites to infect ALL of general aviation.

There's an excellent article in GA News this week, written by an international aircraft ferry pilot, that talks about what it's like to fly in countries with user's fees. It sounds like an absolute nightmare.

Who would ever think that it would be EAA, the voice of the common man in GA, that would give the government the opening they've been waiting for?

 

[ClimbnSink]

For the central planning 'only the gov't can do that' folks. From Jay's link: a private firm offering ATC services, look attractive. I spoke to the company's George Cline about this and he said AirBoss can find the insurance, although it's expensive, and has the staff--all AirVenture and Sun 'n Fun veterans--to run ATC at OSH. He says they could do it for half the price of the FAA's bid or less. The would use about 22 controllers compared to the FAA's 50 or 60.

 

[Jay Honeck]

For the central planning 'only the gov't can do that' folks. From Jay's link: a private firm offering ATC services, look attractive. I spoke to the company's George Cline about this and he said AirBoss can find the insurance, although it's expensive, and has the staff--all AirVenture and Sun 'n Fun veterans--to run ATC at OSH. He says they could do it for half the price of the FAA's bid or less. The would use about 22 controllers compared to the FAA's 50 or 60.

What, a private ATC business can be twice as efficient for half the cost? No way!

And people here get riled at calling the FAA "parasites"...?

 

[steingar]

In May the EAA got a bill. Millions have already been committed to this event. It is the lifeblood of the organization. So they're just supposed to say "screw you, we won't pay". Let's say they call the FAA's bluff. Do you honestly think that the FAA would care? Do you honestly think that any American's outside of Northern Wisconsin would care?

Lets think about that for a moment. They cancel the event for the year, give back whatever they've collected from venders and whoever else fronted money. For starters, it could easily be the end of the organization, if the balance sheets I've seen are correct.

Lets say it isn't. Lets say they cancel, and limp along. Who in their right mind is going to commit to an event that was cancelled so capriciously? How do they build it in future years?

The thing about excellence is it's very difficult to achieve and easily lost. They could easily loose way more than 450 grand. So they agree under protest and hope the Senators can do their thing, which they can, quite easily. The FAA's actions are patently illegal. They're imposing taxes absent Congress, and Congress doesn't like that. It has been and will continue to be our one bulwark against intrusive user fees.

Seems like the wisest course to me. The organization can probably afford the hit and the show goes on. But Jay is right. If the FAA continues this policy and makes it worse, I can see the epitaph for this event. It would be a real loss, too.

 

[Skylane81E]

You, however, really should not take offense at the government being called a "parasite", as the modern federal government fits the dictionary definition to a "T":

*****************************
Parasite. An animal or plant that lives in or on another (the host) from which it obtains nourishment. The host does not benefit from the association and is often harmed by it.
*****************************

So you receive no benefit from the local airport, or the interstate highways system? What about the cop who arrested the guy who would gladly rob your hotel or the firefighter willing to run inside a burning building to rescue your ass?

You get lots of benefit. Want to challenge the cost/benefit? Go for it, we have the SZ for that. Don't look for many of us to be upset if a pink shirt knocks the grin off your face when you call him a parasite, because he is as far from it as your kid.

 

[weilke]

H. He says they could do it for half the price of the FAA's bid or less. The would use about 22 controllers compared to the FAA's 50 or 60.[/I]

Oh, the magic of goverment contracting. Bid 1/2 the staff, promise the moon and blame it on the customer if things predictably fail.

That said, the FAA shouldn't charge for the people listed as 'rookie' in each of their 4-man teams (I know, they are experienced otherwise, but for OSH they are rookies).

 

[Velocity173]

What, a private ATC business can be twice as efficient for half the cost? No way!

And people here get riled at calling the FAA "parasites"...?

Who says they'll be twice as efficient? Half the cost because they would be using half the controllers. Jay, who do you think pays for contract controllers? We do. Either through FAA contracts or local taxes. Same thing when a controller goes to Iraq or Afghanistan to make a fortune, they're getting paid through a govt contract. These private contractors have unions as well. It's called PATCO. Either way your paying for their services Jay.

 

[docmirror]

In May the EAA got a bill. Millions have already been committed to this event. It is the lifeblood of the organization. So they're just supposed to say "screw you, we won't pay". Let's say they call the FAA's bluff. Do you honestly think that the FAA would care? Do you honestly think that any American's outside of Northern Wisconsin would care?

If your questions are not rhetorical, let me take a stab at it. The FAA will care. They will care enough to block any kind of previously authorized actionable items that depend on the federal approval. Namely, altitude requirements, spacing requirements, acro waivers, JO ops waivers, fueling, noise, etc. In fact, I could seriously envision a cadre of 'enforcement' FAA reps descending on the EAA and writing a squawk for every other plane on the field. Capricious? Of course, but when the feds control all that you do, or say, or eat, or sleep, or stand, walk, talk, point, and pass gas, it makes it easy to throw sand in the gears. For a good time, rent the movie "Brazil".

As for the gen-pop, no. It would not even measure a blip on the radar of the rest of America. That's why the FAA can get away with it. Just like getting away with requiring that GA pilots and pax who are US citizens getting 'authorization' to leave the country via airplane.

More than 70% of what the FAA does regulatory would be considered illegal in the 1960s, and prolly 40% would be considered illegal in the 1980s. Guess what, we don't live in those times anymore. We live in the PATRIOT act, NDAA, 'you have not paid enough' and 'you did not build that' times.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Seems like the wisest course to me. The organization can probably afford the hit and the show goes on. But Jay is right. If the FAA continues this policy and makes it worse, I can see the epitaph for this event. It would be a real loss, too.

As many of you know, I've been to the last 30 Airventures. This year will be 31, with luck.

I've told every pilot I've ever met "Go to OSH. Go now. Nothing this good ever lasts forever, and you never know when it will end."

Let's hope this isn't it.