If (when) it was 1.5 miles the field was closed. It’s Class E at arrival altitudes from Ripon on in.
At 1/2 mile spacing, airplanes pass Fisk every 20 seconds. It takes half that time to call out an airplane, watch for a wing rock, and issue instructions. Frequency congestion is only a problem if the approach is pooch-screwed causing irate pilots to do stupid things.
I think the biggest challenge for Airventure arrival pilots is pressure and ego. Pressure for a spot landing, likely the last time this was an issue was an initial PPL check ride. Ego being “I”m a pilot”. Pilot stuff is hard when precision is required, just ask anyone who’s attempted an Instrument Rating.
I just put the RV in hover mode and create the space. Screw everyone else. ;-)The NOTAM says if you are unable to maintain separation with the aircraft in front of you, break off and return to the starting point. My question is, in the 38 year history of the Fisk arrival, has any pilot actually done this?
LOL - yup. And this thread is living proof
It’s a little (lot) more than that. It’s followed by directions to the runway the controller is assigning as well as the frequency for that runway plus any instructions re other aircraft to follow, etc. It’s not so they can greet them.
As someone who has flown the procedure mulitple times, the wing rock confirmation is simplistic and not the issue you're making it out to be or a major contibuting factor, IMO, to the issues that plauge the arrival when the conditions aren't nominal. When busy, ATC keeps the chatter to a minimum and the wing rock is a great way for ATC to quickly determine that the aircraft they are speacking to is the one actually in receipt of instructions. The comm issue, when it happens, is usally from some idiot pilot who either hasn't read,doesn't understand, or decides to blatanly disreard the NOTAM's (errr NOTICE) arrival proceduure and recites a War & Peace dissertation on what they what they should do to get into Osh.
Anyone who has ever taught a classroom full of people knows you teach to the level of the dumbest student! In this case, telling you which tower frequency to turn to... that's for the dumbest pilot who didn't read and print out the NOTAM. I don't need you to tell me which frequency because I'm actually prepared, but this idiot who just did a 360 in front of me for spacing does.
I've had to go around twice -- once on my own and once directed by the tower. In both instances, I was immediately placed back into a downwind for a subsequent landing. No muss no fuss. As for the other arrivals (IFR, warbird, etc), all the merging/sequencing is done by the tower. So the issues being discussed in this and many other threads are really specific to the VFR arrival from one of the transition points to Fisk. IMO, beyond Fisk, other than idiots landing against traffic, or taking off on a taxiway, ATC has it under control and the procedure works as advertised.
One caveat: I've overheard the coordination between the Towers and Fisk, where some non-Fisk-arrival activity noted by the Tower results in go-arounds at the Fisk to temporarily stop/create a break in the flow.
Not when the rules are there to keep people alive.
Nobody at the FAA has been doing this for 38 years. We're on about the third generation of controllers since the procedure came about.
If you know who's in charge of the procedure for next year as well as anyone involved in reviewing what happened this year, I'd love to participate in a way that will actually help.
You're right - But when they have 2-3 aircraft showing up at Fisk at once, they don't go through all that. It'll be "Red and white high wing, continue up the tracks for 27, purple low wing with wig-wags, right turn for 36, twin at 2300 break it off."
Absolutely... Back when the procedure started at Ripon. Now, people might do so early on, but if they've been in line since the bridge, hell no. This is something that needs to be addressed in the current version of the procedure.The NOTAM says if you are unable to maintain separation with the aircraft in front of you, break off and return to the starting point. My question is, in the 38 year history of the Fisk arrival, has any pilot actually done this?
I think you meant "overestimate". But I would say that the number of people who haven't read the NOTAM is fairly low, it's just that those who haven't read it at all royally mess things up for everyone else.
Here's mine, though this version isn't current (doesn't have the longer procedure, and the 18R via E-W Road approach has been discontinued):
You're missing the fact that there is some randomization at work here, and there aren't airplanes exactly a half mile apart all day long most of the time. In addition, a single runway can accept a lot more traffic than Fisk can send in, even at 1/2 mile spacing.
But all of those use different airspace than FISK. They only conflict on the runways themselves.
I give up. You win.Not when the rules are there to keep people alive.
Nobody at the FAA has been doing this for 38 years. We're on about the third generation of controllers since the procedure came about.
Also, controllers are only allowed to do OSH a certain number of times (I forget what it is, something like 8), and each team has a very OSH-experienced controller, a few less-experienced veterans, and at least one rookie.
I've never been a controller, but I have flown the procedure around 40 times... And I'd certainly like to participate in making it better.
If you know who's in charge of the procedure for next year as well as anyone involved in reviewing what happened this year, I'd love to participate in a way that will actually help.
You're right - But when they have 2-3 aircraft showing up at Fisk at once, they don't go through all that. It'll be "Red and white high wing, continue up the tracks for 27, purple low wing with wig-wags, right turn for 36, twin at 2300 break it off."
When there's two miles in trail, they have plenty of extra time, and there's a reason they add all of the extra comms including the "good rock, welcome to Oshkosh" etc... And I didn't know this until recently, but they're actually instructed to do that. OSH is already a high-stress environment for everyone, and they say all of that extra stuff when they have time so as to reduce the stress level on the pilots and "lower the temperature of the room".
Absolutely... Back when the procedure started at Ripon. Now, people might do so early on, but if they've been in line since the bridge, hell no. This is something that needs to be addressed in the current version of the procedure.
I think you meant "overestimate". But I would say that the number of people who haven't read the NOTAM is fairly low, it's just that those who haven't read it at all royally mess things up for everyone else.
As far as picking up the ATIS, it sounds like a lot of people had trouble receiving it this year, especially farther out before starting at the bridge. They should probably add a couple of transmitters well south and west of OSH so they're closer to the people receiving the ATIS.
Here's mine, though this version isn't current (doesn't have the longer procedure, and the 18R via E-W Road approach has been discontinued):
View attachment 154139
Everything you need on one page, *if* you've read the NOTAM first.
You're missing the fact that there is some randomization at work here, and there aren't airplanes exactly a half mile apart all day long most of the time. In addition, a single runway can accept a lot more traffic than Fisk can send in, even at 1/2 mile spacing.
But all of those use different airspace than FISK. They only conflict on the runways themselves.
So where's that contact information you said you had?
I'm curious. What's your experience? Have you flown into Oshkosh? Are you a controller? Have you filled that role at Oshkosh? I'm trying to understand/place your point of view. I can't tell any of that from your posts.
Never been a controller. Have done the Fisk a few times, including after having come in and then going out a day or two later to do some formation flying with friends (returning as a 4-ship was fun). Have flown into OSH every year since 2009 except Sloshkosh in 2010 and NotKOSH in 2020 (although a few of us did fly into OSH and have lunch at the Clay Pit).
Yep, lots of stuff going on.