Opinions on turboprops for winter mountain airport flights?

If you are planning on selling seats for scheduled flights, you are getting outside what Part 135 charter operators are allowed to do and moving into Part 121 Air Carrier operations.
 
Just because it is scheduled doesn't make it 121. Cape Air operates there aircraft under scheduled 135. Also I use to fly 19 seat aircraft under Part 135 in scheduled operations.
 
jayhawk74 said:
Just because it is scheduled doesn't make it 121. Cape Air operates there aircraft under scheduled 135. Also I use to fly 19 seat aircraft under Part 135 in scheduled operations.
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I’m well aware of that. But those operators know exactly what parameters they need to work within. I’m guessing the OP doesn’t.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Really then, you should be looking at what charter operators already have in their inventory in the markets where you're looking at chartering. https://www.charterhub.com is a good place to start - Click on the "Aircraft for Charter" on the menu.
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Thanks, @flyingcheesehead. I recently did a trial account on FlightList PRO, which seems like it provides even more detail than CharterHub. Are you familiar with them? Any additional good options out there?

Also, are there any other good databases for finding all charter operators with a specific aircraft model in their fleet? Let's say I wanted to find every United States based charter operator with at least one Embraer Phenom 300 in their fleet. I think FlightList Pro sort of have this functionality, but not sure if there are even better ways to get at this.
 
You might also want to call around to small charter companies in Socal and have them get you quotes in various aircraft to ASE (for example). Lots of operators in that area and lots of different kinds of airplanes. Without all the broker overhead, it might get you close to what it'll cost per seat for a typical leg. None of these guys are making a killing on top of their costs. The margins are thinner than you might think.
 
The D328 is a great airplane. Fast and very quiet especially in the cabin. Air Wis operated them to a number of mountain airports here in CO.
 
kayoh190 said:
You might also want to call around to small charter companies in Socal and have them get you quotes in various aircraft to ASE (for example). Lots of operators in that area and lots of different kinds of airplanes. Without all the broker overhead, it might get you close to what it'll cost per seat for a typical leg. None of these guys are making a killing on top of their costs. The margins are thinner than you might think.
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Thanks, @kayoh190. Yeah, I realized a couple weeks back how much of a premium you pay by working with brokers, so I've started going directly to operators.

At the moment, I'm mainly speaking with operators in SoCal, but given that we'll be doing trips every week over a 10-week period, I also sort of wonder whether operators outside of SoCal, including floating operators, would be open to temporarily repositioning one or more of their planes so that it's local to us during those 10 weeks?
 
jonvcaples said:
The D328 is a great airplane. Fast and very quiet especially in the cabin. Air Wis operated them to a number of mountain airports here in CO.
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Good call, @jonvcaples. I've considered small airliners, like the D328, and it could be a really interesting strategy for us to pursue a little further down the line, but at the moment it's uncertain whether we'll have the numbers to justify it. Plus, even with high enough numbers, it's advantageous for us in some respects to have multiple aircraft so that we can give people a little more flexibility in their flight schedules, e.g. if some want to fly out earlier and some want to fly out later. Finally, availability seems a bit more limited once you move into the airliner class.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
What you're seeing is a few things: "Empty Weight" as listed on a web site is going to be the lightest possible empty weight. Start putting in options and fancy interiors and they're going to weigh more. So, your actual empty weight is going to depend on the airplane. If you look around at the used aircraft for sale sites, occasionally you'll find one listed with its actual empty weight, or you can ask around for more real-world numbers.

Empty Weight does not include crew. Basic Operating Weight, however, does.
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Flying magazine has a feature on the NGX in the latest issue, and they give the empty weight as 6,635. I was a little surprised it was that accurate, usually magazines are known for polishing the apple.
 
alexcr said:
I also sort of wonder whether operators outside of SoCal, including floating operators, would be open to temporarily repositioning one or more of their planes so that it's local to us during those 10 weeks?
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For the right money, I’m sure they would.
 
N1120A said:
The Avanti is super fast and very efficient. The only real issue they have is the perception that they are loud. They actually are pretty quiet, but the noise they make is very odd and annoys people. Still, they have real cruise speeds that outdo some true jets.
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I can always tell when a Piaggio Avanti is going overhead without looking at.
 
This doesn't compare to the King Air 350 or the PC-12 but food for thought. The company I worked for flew a BE99 on a cargo run round-trip in the middle of the night between PHX and APA. The turboprop operated on a longer legs along airways with lower MEAs in case of engine failure. It took just under 3 hours each way. We figured out our Learjet 35s could do the same trip, direct, for about the same price and less than half the flight time. A Turboprop can generally fly in the lower approach categories than a jet. Going into Aspen, which is all circling, Category D is Not Authorized. So can you dirty it up and keep it ice free while flying below 140 knots? Of course, if you don't see ASE by ALLIX or DOYPE, you will most likely be doing the missed approach. Hope you have to climb performance if one cages on the go-around. Oh, wait, the PC-12 probably won't...
 
Rather, I'm speaking with potential charter operator partners, and trying to figure out what the best approach is, and this feedback here has been quite valuable in figuring things out. (We wouldn't even be operating under their certificate; I'm not looking to get into the charter business.)
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So are you going to be using airplanes they own? Cause you'd be "operating under their certificate" regardless. If you are going to buy your own airplane, and charge people for flying on your airplane, you need a charter certificate. Even if you aren't going to charge people directly for the flight, but you are going to use this airplane as an incentive for going to your ski resort, or whatever, you need a certificate.

What you need to do is sit down with management from a local charter company, and go over this stuff face to face. You'll get a much better idea of what they can and cannot do, and get an idea on how much this will cost. It will be a much better use of your time vs a bunch of idiots like me trying to give you advice on the internet.
 
Groundpounder said:
So are you going to be using airplanes they own? Cause you'd be "operating under their certificate" regardless. If you are going to buy your own airplane, and charge people for flying on your airplane, you need a charter certificate. Even if you aren't going to charge people directly for the flight, but you are going to use this airplane as an incentive for going to your ski resort, or whatever, you need a certificate.

What you need to do is sit down with management from a local charter company, and go over this stuff face to face. You'll get a much better idea of what they can and cannot do, and get an idea on how much this will cost. It will be a much better use of your time vs a bunch of idiots like me trying to give you advice on the internet.
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Yeah, we won't own or operate anything. We'll simply be chartering.

I'm already speaking with operators, but I've found so far that they can be a little overoptimistic, it seems, on what ranges and capacities their fleet is capable of. (Especially when you're dealing with the sales side of their business.)

So it's helpful to get a sanity check from folks here who actually have experience flying these models. And also to learn about other options that operators might not want to educate you about since those options aren't available in their fleet.
 
alexcr said:
Yeah, we won't own or operate anything. We'll simply be chartering.

I'm already speaking with operators, but I've found so far that they can be a little overoptimistic, it seems, on what ranges and capacities their fleet is capable of. (Especially when you're dealing with the sales side of their business.)

So it's helpful to get a sanity check from folks here who actually have experience flying these models. And also to learn about other options that operators might not want to educate you about since those options aren't available in their fleet.
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Fair enough.

Another thing to look into is a lot of charter operators have restrictions on mountain airports. Like, can't go into ASE at night, or they have specific weather mins for TEX, or whatever. Be sure you find that out before you commit to anything.
 
Liberty Flyer said:
Of course, if you don't see ASE by ALLIX or DOYPE, you will most likely be doing the missed approach. Hope you have to climb performance if one cages on the go-around.
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Keeping in mind that there are huge differences in the climb requirements for a go around below MDA vs a missed approach at or above MDA.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Keeping in mind that there are huge differences in the climb requirements for a go around below MDA vs a missed approach at or above MDA.
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Hence Approach/Climb Vs Landing/Climb and Net Vs Gross. Reno for example, has three different minimums is directly depended upon what the aircraft is capable of on the missed approach. The comment for ASE was mean to point out that reasonable maneuvering would require more room to make a normal descent to the runway than from the MAP at MDA. Dropping 2,400 feet in 1.5 miles is not a stabilized approach.
 
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Liberty Flyer said:
Hence Approach/Climb Vs Landing/Climb and Net Vs Gross.
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I was referring to the terrain. You can fly the published missed from MDA for quite a ways without climbing, but if you’ll actually need to climb if you’re much below MDA.
 
Groundpounder said:
Fair enough.

Another thing to look into is a lot of charter operators have restrictions on mountain airports. Like, can't go into ASE at night, or they have specific weather mins for TEX, or whatever. Be sure you find that out before you commit to anything.
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Yep, good point. Also will be looking into the mountain airport experience of their pilots. Though, for a lot of these companies, I think the reality is that these winter destination routes are fairly common routes for them.
 
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