Operations into controlled airspace

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JWhistler

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Joe Whistler
I'm having a friendly debate with a couple of people regarding requirements to enter, specifically, Class C and Class D airspace. They say I need "clearance" to enter. I say you don't ask for clearance, and you won't receive "clearance."

Here's my discussion points, pulled from the FAR...

In Class A and B, the FAR specifically states clearance is required prior to entering the airspace.

In Class C and D, the only requirement is that two-way communication is established. You need not "request clearance," nor will the tower say that you have clearance. Establishment of two-way communications is achieved when the tower reads back your FULL call sign.

Example: Flying into Martinsburg (Class D)...
Me: Martinsburg Tower N156ME is inbound 10 miles to the south with information Yankee for runway 26.
Tower: November 156ME standby...
(With that, you are free to enter the airspace, but the tower never gave you "clearance."

If the tower replied with something like: "Inbound flight from the south standby..."
You may NOT enter the airspace and must hold until you have received a full read-back of your call sign.

§91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
(a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
§91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

§91.130 Operations in Class C airspace.
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

§91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

So...Do I need to request clearance when entering Class C or D, and do I need to wait for clearance to be granted before entering? :)
 
This is clearly spelled out in the FAR/AIM. So I don't get why the confusion exists with you guys. Plus these are questions on the PPL written and often covered during the oral.
 
AggieMike88 said:
This is clearly spelled out in the FAR/AIM. So I don't get why the confusion exists with you guys. Plus these are questions on the PPL written and often covered during the oral.
Click to expand...

So who is confused: me, or the people that say you need clearance to enter C or D? I didn't think I was confused until this conversation started! LOL
 
My guess is they're not taking the word "clearance" as literal as you are. You are talking about a formal clearance. They are likely saying you can't willy-nilly fly through C & D without some ATC conversation.
 
Two way radio communication isn't really "clearence" so you aren't confused. When they say your call sign you can enter C or D. You only need to hear the "cleared into class bravo" for, you guessed it, class b. Are you friends pilots? This is pretty basic stuff...
 
Class C

Establish two-way radio contact.

You must establish two way radio communications prior to entering class C airspace. To establish two-way radio communications with air traffic control you should first give your position, altitude, and your request. Your request should include whether you are landing or transitioning their airspace.

If the controller has answered you with your call sign or registration number you have established two way radio contact. Now you are cleared to enter the class C airspace unless otherwise instructed.

Example: Two-way radio communications not established.

You call "Daytona approach Cessna 123NU twenty miles southwest, two thousand, landing Daytona Beach information Juliet. The controller responds "aircraft calling southwest standby." You have not established two-way radio contact and may not enter controlled airspace.

Example: Two-way radio communications establish.

If in the previous example the controller responded with "Cessna 123NU squawk 4525" you have established communications and are clear to enter their airspace. If the controllers response was "Cessna 123NU Roger" you may also enter the class C airspace.

Example: Communications established but not cleared into class C airspace.

If in the above example the controller response "123NU" squawk 4525, remain clear of class C airspace" you may not enter the airspace until you receive further clearance. Remember if the controller responds with your call sign or registration number you are cleared into class C airspace unless instructed otherwise.
 
oregonboy109 said:
Two way radio communication isn't really "clearence" so you aren't confused. When they say your call sign you can enter C or D. You only need to hear the "cleared into class bravo" for, you guessed it, class b. Are you friends pilots? This is pretty basic stuff...
Click to expand...

But in a way, the lack of ATC saying "remain clear" is in sorts a clearance to enter.
 
Coming home from a xc flight last weekend I established two-way communications with ATC at my home Class D airport. They responded with my tail number and told me to "remain outside Class D until we get back to you in a few minutes due to unusually heavy traffic." After 22 minutes of ground reference maneuvers :) I was most cordially invited into Class D airspace with a very polite and professional apology, which was appreciated but wholly unnecessary. So, two-way communications with a readback of a call sign or tail number is not necessarily a clearance to enter Class D.
 
Ya. The FARs say ATC clearence for A and B and two way radio comm for C and D so, op, I guess you could point to that but if your friends consider that call sign read back and lack of " stay out of my airspace" as clearence then.....
 
I've never heard the tower in C or D say "N123 you are cleared to enter..." My point is, if you are waiting to hear those words, you might find yourself waiting a long time before the tower checks back and asks your intentions.
 
I'm wondering if there might be a WINGS or FAAST program in the area that could cover these topics. Maybe you can coordinate a group attendance, or you can coordinate a visit to your local ATC facility.

It might not be as beneficial for you as it would be your friends who could use a refresher on these concepts.
 
Well, I regret that I started this topic...
 
It's a play on words. Technically it's not a clearance to enter C or D, but you still have to get a form of permission to enter.

If they don't want you in their airspace, they can just ignore your calls(it's happened to me), or tell you to stay clear. It's been argued that you don't need permission to enter, and "technically" you don't, but establishing 2-way communication(which takes an action on the part of the pilot AND ATC both) is akin to receiving permission to enter.
 
Geez, Louise - is there any doubt?

"Gotham tower, Cessna 1234 with Romeo, 10 east, landing Gotham"

"Cessna 1234, Gotham tower, altimeter 29.92, report 1 mile base for runway 36"

Or, if he needs you to stay out, he'll tell you. If it isn't clear, or he gets stepped on, say so. Work with the guy, and maybe not get so in the weeds about if it's "legal" to go roarin' in. Or not.
 
JWhistler said:
Well, I regret that I started this topic...
Click to expand...

You shouldn't feel regret. You asked a fair question and got answers. Maybe not the exact one you were seeking, but just the same, it sparked discussion. Which
Ch is what Internet forums are all about.

If we we hopped on your toes a bit, well that happens. Especially on items that are fundamental.
 
JWhistler said:
Well, I regret that I started this topic...
Click to expand...

Don't be. Some people think you should know everything they know and if you don't, they like to call you names. Welcome to POA. I think you had a valid question that is clear in the AIM, but I don't mind you asking it on the Internet. I've read the FAR/AIM but don't have it all memorized like the guys that have been quoting from it for 10+ years and sometimes I like to ask my online buddies a question instead of grabbing the books and looking through each page. It was a valid question.
 
Somedudeintn said:
Don't be. Some people think you should know everything they know and if you don't, they like to call you names. Welcome to POA. I think you had a valid question that is clear in the AIM, but I don't mind you asking it on the Internet. I've read the FAR/AIM but don't have it all memorized like the guys that have been quoting from it for 10+ years and sometimes I like to ask my online buddies a question instead of grabbing the books and looking through each page. It was a valid question.
Click to expand...

Now I'm waiting for someone to comment about how I should use the table of contents instead of looking at each page...:rofl: That's just how it is around here.
 
Always a good question to stat a debate,and get lectured.
 
Of course if you're already on the ground at either facility, you do get clearance into the airspace. So there is that. But then there's also class E, which is also controlled airspace...
 
Literal requirement: Two-way radio communication with ATC.

Example: "Podunk Tower, Cherokee 12345"
"Cherokee 12345, Podunk Tower, standby"

Two-way communication has been established, and you may enter the airspace. Unless ATC instructs you to remain outside Class C or D, you have legal authority to enter.

If ATC says "Aircraft calling Podunk tower, standby", you may NOT enter the airspace, since they did not use your call sign, therefore two-way communication has NOT been established.
 
JWhistler said:
I'm having a friendly debate with a couple of people regarding requirements to enter, specifically, Class C and Class D airspace. They say I need "clearance" to enter. I say you don't ask for clearance, and you won't receive "clearance."

Here's my discussion points, pulled from the FAR...

In Class A and B, the FAR specifically states clearance is required prior to entering the airspace.

In Class C and D, the only requirement is that two-way communication is established. You need not "request clearance," nor will the tower say that you have clearance. Establishment of two-way communications is achieved when the tower reads back your FULL call sign.

Example: Flying into Martinsburg (Class D)...
Me: Martinsburg Tower N156ME is inbound 10 miles to the south with information Yankee for runway 26.
Tower: November 156ME standby...
(With that, you are free to enter the airspace, but the tower never gave you "clearance."

If the tower replied with something like: "Inbound flight from the south standby..."
You may NOT enter the airspace and must hold until you have received a full read-back of your call sign.

§91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
(a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
§91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

§91.130 Operations in Class C airspace.
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

§91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

So...Do I need to request clearance when entering Class C or D, and do I need to wait for clearance to be granted before entering? :)
Click to expand...

establishing 2-way communications (defined as ATC repeating your tail number) IS clearance to enter Class C or D airspace. to enter Class B airspace you must receive specific clearance (the words "cleared to enter" and your tail number) must be uttered by ATC.
 
rk911 said:
establishing 2-way communications (defined as ATC repeating your tail number) IS clearance to enter Class C or D airspace. to enter Class B airspace you must receive specific clearance (the words "cleared to enter" and your tail number) must be uttered by ATC.
Click to expand...

While the last is often repeated as gospel, it's not officially stated anywhere. It's merely the FAA guidance to controllers issuing class B clearances to VFR flights. All you need to comply with the regulation is a clearance. In fact, for a long time departing from IAD didn't have the "class B" stuff on the departure clearances. They started doing "CLEARED INTO" for a while (since that was the only phraseology mentioned in the ATC handbook) but now "CLEARED OUT OF" is used which is equally inane as it presumes the pilot actually is going to leave the class B after departure (typical, but I have flow from IAD to BWI and never left the airspace). IFR pilots don't hear any mention of class B airspace in their clearances.
 
You don't need an explicit clearance for D & C, but if ATC tells you to remain clear or do something else, you have to abide by it as an ATC instruction unless you declare an emergency or work out something else with them.

Technically you just need two way radio contact, and a mode-C squawk for class C.
 
... So, two-way communications with a readback of a call sign or tail number is not necessarily a clearance to enter Class D.
Click to expand...

Not true. You BRIEFLY met the requirements to enter the airspace. However, less than a second later, the controller asked you to remain outside the airspace. Since the FARs require you to comply with valid ATC instructions, you need to stay outside the airspace.

This doesn't change the fact that establishing comms meets the requirements to enter Class C/D airspace.

Edit: well shoot, if I hadn't run up to make breakfast during that post, I would've beat Andy to it.
 
There is one caveat:

"...with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services..."

You have to be talking to the right ATC. 99% of the time this is not an issue since ATC is responsible for coordinating transits through airspace, but for example, say you're on flight following - approach may or may not have jurisdiction over an underlying Class D airspace. If they don't, and they weren't expecting you to enter the Class D and you did, then it would be a bust.
 
ATC_av8er said:
Literal requirement: Two-way radio communication with ATC.

Example: "Podunk Tower, Cherokee 12345"
"Cherokee 12345, Podunk Tower, standby"

Two-way communication has been established, and you may enter the airspace. Unless ATC instructs you to remain outside Class C or D, you have legal authority to enter.

If ATC says "Aircraft calling Podunk tower, standby", you may NOT enter the airspace, since they did not use your call sign, therefore two-way communication has NOT been established.
Click to expand...

Purposely quoting this information, to highlight what constitutes two way radio communications.

To the OP...don't feel bad about posting any questions on here. Chances are, there are a dozen other lurkers/readers/what have you on this forum that have the same confusion about airspace requirements. They just may not be as forthcoming as yourself to spend the time to post the question. Better to find out from colleagues and experts in the field, than guess your way incorrectly into a proverbial "hot seat."

Up to my involvement in the conversation, the information you saw from the other users was accurate. Any personal experiences I had working traffic wouldn't provide more information, other than the suggestion that your friends (and anyone willing to learn in the pilot community) seize every opportunity you have to glean knowledge from those in the field. That comes in the form of symposiums, FAAST programs, and a visit to your local ATC facility or FSDO.
 
bullwinkle said:
Technically you just need two way radio contact, and a mode-C squawk for class C.
Click to expand...

Note you need to have a transponder and mode C for class C (as for practical matters just about every other controlled airspace). There's no requirement to be on a discrete code in any airspace other than the DC special butthurt area.
 
Sac Arrow said:
There is one caveat:

"...with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services..."

You have to be talking to the right ATC. 99% of the time this is not an issue since ATC is responsible for coordinating transits through airspace, but for example, say you're on flight following - approach may or may not have jurisdiction over an underlying Class D airspace. If they don't, and they weren't expecting you to enter the Class D and you did, then it would be a bust.
Click to expand...

The approach control will coordinate w/ the tower for an aircraft to transit Class D airspace, called a 'point out', at least it was called that when I did it years ago. :D

But one would be wise to ensure approach has coordinated too.
 
oregonboy109 said:
It goes back to how literal you want to take clearance.
Click to expand...

Kritchlow said:
Right.... I'm not sure there is a perfect answer for the OP.
Click to expand...

This. Here is the Part 1 definition...

Air traffic clearance means an authorization by air traffic control, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace.
Click to expand...
If you are debating whether or not the words "cleared to" or "cleared into" defines a clearance, it think it includes more than that. But does it really matter as long as you know what is required in any particular situation?

JWhistler said:
Well, I regret that I started this topic...
Click to expand...
Why? In your OP you stated you were having a friendly debate with a couple people. Now you are having one with more than that...
 
mscard88 said:
The approach control will coordinate w/ the tower for an aircraft to transit Class D airspace, called a 'point out', at least it was called that when I did it years ago. :D

But one would be wise to ensure approach has coordinated too.
Click to expand...

They should, but but if they didn't....

In one particular instance which I am aware of, the pilot was on flight following above a Class D airpace, and was issued a restriction to stay above 2,500 feet (the ceiling of the Class D airspace.) The pilot understood that to mean stay at a nominal 2,500 feet, plus or minus a tolerance, not stay clear of Class D. Pilot dipped below 2,500 feet and was admonished for violating Class D airspace.
 
flyingron said:
Note you need to have a transponder and mode C for class C (as for practical matters just about every other controlled airspace). There's no requirement to be on a discrete code in any airspace other than the DC special butthurt area.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but in general practice they want to give you a code if you are in their wedding cake.
 
I'm hoping someday I know a Class C controller who will play along...

"Colorado Springs, Skylane 1279M, level niner-thousand, 25 north, VFR to Pueblo."

"Skylane 1279M, you're a dick."

And then I continue on my way to PUB and they never say anything again. Totally legal. :)
 
JWhistler said:
So who is confused: me, or the people that say you need clearance to enter C or D? I didn't think I was confused until this conversation started! LOL
Click to expand...

I think you all know the requirements of entering the various controlled airspace and are simply arguing the semantics of whether those requirements amount to a "clearance".

You: a clearance is something that you request and are explicitly given.

Them: a clearance is implicit when you meet the requirements for entering the airspace.

implicit vs explicit is what you're arguing. Call it what you like as long as you know the requirements.
 
denverpilot said:
I'm hoping someday I know a Class C controller who will play along...

"Colorado Springs, Skylane 1279M, level niner-thousand, 25 north, VFR to Pueblo."

"Skylane 1279M, you're a dick."

And then I continue on my way to PUB and they never say anything again. Totally legal. :)
Click to expand...

That violates 91.13(a) because I would crash due to uncontrollable laughter. :D
 
flyingron said:
While the last is often repeated as gospel, it's not officially stated anywhere. It's merely the FAA guidance to controllers issuing class B clearances to VFR flights. All you need to comply with the regulation is a clearance. In fact, for a long time departing from IAD didn't have the "class B" stuff on the departure clearances. They started doing "CLEARED INTO" for a while (since that was the only phraseology mentioned in the ATC handbook) but now "CLEARED OUT OF" is used which is equally inane as it presumes the pilot actually is going to leave the class B after departure (typical, but I have flow from IAD to BWI and never left the airspace). IFR pilots don't hear any mention of class B airspace in their clearances.
Click to expand...
That's because IFR pilots are operating on a clearance in controlled airspace. They are already "cleared" into any airspace their "clearance" and ATC instructions take them. Apples and oranges compared to the VFR pilot who is not operating on a clearance until "cleared" to do something specific.
 
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