Open letter to the corp jet jock that tried to blame me for an airspace violation

[ScottM]

On Sunday I was flying east from 3CK to the lake front. I had dialed the OBK VOR in and was staying to the left side of the 090 radial. This has well north of PWK airspace and under the Class B shelf. I opted for an altitude of 2200MSL until I got to the lake front. The ILS 16 into PWK has aircraft staying above 2300 until just inside the class D (CUTEY) of PWK. This keeps me away from their traffic and in a good spot to have room to maneuver if needed. But it is a busy area so I was looking around. FF is barely an option from C90 and I gave up asking long ago. I will monitor C90 on 120.55 to at least help my understand who is where and what they are doing

As we approached the area where aircraft coming into runway 16 would be I started looking left. I was not disappointed, there coming at me was a business jet. He was maybe 3 to 5 miles away and closing fast at my altitude, 2200MSL. He saw me first, probably TCAS, and started a climbing left turn away. I had right of way and he was already taking action so I help course. As he is turning and climbing C90 comes on to give him a heads up.

He is too long for the approach and was probably given the visual and got below the glide slope but what he did next made mad. He responds tot he controller and say "We just saw him, I think he is in Palwaukee's airspace"

Butthead! I was well outside of of PWK's airspace. Don't cover your lack of piloting skills on this approach and your screw up by blaming anyone else. Suck it up, you were too low for the ILS and in class E airspace where I had every right to be too. This was not even a close call, so to go blaming others for your mistakes shows a dramatic lack of maturity for one trusted with so much equipment and lives. Did you take note of ATC response to you? They knew I was not anywhere near PWK's airspace and that you were just whining. That is why they took no further action and told you to go around. Next time pay attention to flying the aircraft and less on who you can blame for your own shortcomings.

Ok I feel better, I needed that!!

 

[Greebo]

Let it all out, Scott. Don't hold back your anger, stress is bad for the soul.

 

[ScottM]

Let it all out, Scott. Don't hold back your anger, stress is bad for the soul.

I got my physical today and am trying to get my blood pressure lower.

 

[AdamZ]

So Scott did you return fire? " No I'm not in Palwalkies airspace! Your just below the GS so it proably looks that way to you. Snicker.

 

[ScottM]

So Scott did you return fire? " No I'm not in Palwalkies airspace! Your just below the GS so it proably looks that way to you. Snicker.

No ATC did that for me. And I also did not really want to be an ass on the radio. Better to let him look the part of stupid jerk than to make him think there is someone competing against him for the title.

 

[mikea]

Monitoring 120.55 is a good tip, Scott. Thanks.

 

[ScottM]

Monitoring 120.55 is a good tip, Scott. Thanks.

It always helps to help yourself even when ATC won't

 

[gprellwitz]

No ATC did that for me. And I also did not really want to be an ass on the radio. Better to let him look the part of stupid jerk than to make him think there is someone competing against him for the title.

Very good call! Well done.

 

[KennyFlys]

Scott, you did good. You were vigilant and remained aware of possible traffic for a known approach. You planned an altitude to keep you well under that path. With him being outside of CUTEY and below 2300, it was his error without a doubt.

I am curious what exactly the controller said to him.

 

[colomtnflyer]

Hey Scott... Here's .25cents for the machine... I want to know how you really feel..... lol

You handled it perfectly from your end! Good job!

 

[JasonCT]

Scott - Glad to see you can vent.

 

[ScottM]

I am curious what exactly the controller said to him.

After the cor jet pilot said the stuff about me being in PWK's airspace the C90 controller said "if he was he would be talking to PWK tower".

 

[Witmo]

Not to throw any cold water on this fire but you're a better man than I if you can tell an aircraft 3-5 miles away is exactly coaltitude with you. I wouldn't be surprised if he was inbound at 2300, saw you, and decided that passing 100 feet over you was not a smart thing to do while looking to intercept the glideslope. The fact that he mistook you to be in Executive's airspace shouldn't rattle your cage unless the radar tape were to confirm it. Since it won't, chill out. By the way, you don't "have" the right of way until someone gives it to you--which he did.

 

[jesse]

By the way, you don't "have" the right of way until someone gives it to you--which he did.

Yes you do. That doesn't mean you aren't going to die but right of way is a legal term. Meaning one of them legally has the right over the other one. So yes--you do have it. Let's check some sources.
Dictionary:

right of way –noun, plural rights of way, right of ways. 1.a common law or statutory right granted to a vehicle, as an airplane or boat, to proceed ahead of another.

Also you might want to review 91.113

Sec. 91.113 - Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.
(a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the operation of an aircraft on water.
(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.
(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic.
(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different categories --
(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;
(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, airplane, or rotorcraft; and
(3) An airship has the right-of-way over an airplane or rotorcraft.
However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.
(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.
(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

So yes-- I understand what you are saying. But don't be a dick about it because right of way DOES mean something and it WILL mean something with an NTSB judge. Obviously it doesn't mean the other pilot is going to obey it, but if you both live and it triggers a controllers alarm, you can count on what the NTSB judge will decide. He had right of way, the other airplane turned away from him, therefore he stayed on course. That is how it's supposed to work.

The fact that he mistook you to be in Executive's airspace shouldn't rattle your cage unless the radar tape were to confirm it. Since it won't, chill out.

Next time you're flying around airspace and another pilot decides to "nark" you out to a controller saying you're in it. Let's see how you feel.

 

[Witmo]

The jet yielded the right of way--what more would you want him to do, buy you a cup of coffee? At least he had his head out the cockpit looking for traffic! Burn him at the stake for making a stupid radio call but don't make up BS about poor instrument flying skills to bolster the case against him.

 

[ScottM]

The jet yielded the right of way--what more would you want him to do, buy you a cup of coffee? At least he had his head out the cockpit looking for traffic! Burn him at the stake for making a stupid radio call but don't make up BS about poor instrument flying skills to bolster the case against him.

Sigh!

 

[jpflys]

Scott, How did you create that PDF. That is, how did you draw the line on the digital chart?

 

[gprellwitz]

Scott, How did you create that PDF. That is, how did you draw the line on the digital chart?

Guessing a screen capture from AOPA RTFP or something similar?

 

[ScottM]

Scott, How did you create that PDF. That is, how did you draw the line on the digital chart?

That was all done with Golden Eagle. I put a user waypoint just above the OBK VOR and out on the lake. Then planned a flight from 3CK to the waypoint1 then direct waypoint 2. I then selected print from the menu and I have the full acrobat version so I elected to print as an acrobat file. Viola!

 

[JasonCT]

Again I say Scott you are a nerd

 

[ScottM]

Again I say Scott you are a nerd

THANKS!

​

 

[JasonCT]

Oh BTW didn't know you were a Harry Potter fan?!

 

[KennyFlys]

Oh BTW didn't know you were a Harry Potter fan?!

That's what inspired him to learn to read.

 

[mikea]

I was going to say that I use the Bahai Temple as my waypoint for the turn on the lakeshore, but it looks like you end up at the same place.

My flightpath might be a farther north, but I think I can say been there. I do watch for PWK traffic when I cross that area. Now I know what and where they might be.

Thanks again, Scott.

 

[Ghery]

I was going to say that I use the Bahai Temple as my waypoint for the turn on the lakeshore, but it looks like you end up at the same place.

Like the one on the picture? Wrong one, I know, but it is Bahai.

 

[mikea]

Like the one on the picture? Wrong one, I know, but it is Bahai.

I think it's THE Bahai Temple for North America, built when they were founded. It's a huge white building right on the lakefront.

http://www.bahai.us/bahai-temple

It's not hard to see from miles away
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=112+L...2.074367,-87.683414&spn=0.003118,0.010048&t=h

With the sat view I can see it's south of PWK but I'm coming / going from the northwest. I think I go 130 degrees from there.

 

[gprellwitz]

I think it's THE Bahai Temple for North America, built when they were founded. It's a huge white building right on the lakefront.

http://www.bahai.us/bahai-temple

It's not hard to see from miles away
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=112+L...2.074367,-87.683414&spn=0.003118,0.010048&t=h

With the sat view I can see it's south of PWK but I'm coming / going from the northwest. I think I go 130 degrees from there.

Hey, I see PEOPLE in that Google Maps image! On the beach!

Any the Bahai Temple is a visual reporting point and is even graphically rendered on the VFR Flyway side of the Chicago Terminal Area Chart.

 

[jpflys]

http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event_details.aspx?eid=14423

 

[Patch]

It's not smart flying through the known final approach course for instrument approaches. You were flying at 2200', his altitude restriction was 2300 (until glideslope intercept). That's potentially only 100 feet of clearance if he passes right by you. The FAA defines "well clear" as 500 feet. Now consider this. You've built in 100 feet of altitude clearance, but the altimeter tolerances only have to be 75ft (on the ground) of a known altitude. So now you may be down to 25 ft, or if you (or he) screwed the pooch with your altimeter settings, 0 feet.

I can't see how anyone can justify your flight path as a smart decision, especially having the SA that you have that it's the final approach course for an approach.

The dude probably got a TCAS hit (and resolution advisory) and tried to avoid you. I would be ****ed too.

Yeah, you might not have done anything illegal, but it sure wasn't smart, especially not talking to anyone.

 

[ScottM]

It's not smart flying through the known final approach course for instrument approaches. You were flying at 2200', his altitude restriction was 2300 (until glideslope intercept). That's potentially only 100 feet of clearance if he passes right by you. The FAA defines "well clear" as 500 feet. Now consider this. You've built in 100 feet of altitude clearance, but the altimeter tolerances only have to be 75ft (on the ground) of a known altitude. So now you may be down to 25 ft, or if you (or he) screwed the pooch with your altimeter settings, 0 feet.

I can't see how anyone can justify your flight path as a smart decision, especially having the SA that you have that it's the final approach course for an approach.

The dude probably got a TCAS hit (and resolution advisory) and tried to avoid you. I would be ****ed too.

Yeah, you might not have done anything illegal, but it sure wasn't smart, especially not talking to anyone.

Chicago approach does not give flight following except on rare occasion so there was no one to talk to. Going higher is not an option as there is a class B shelf above and just try getting VFR into the O'Hare class B. This is a choke point for Chicago airspace and is why we keep our heads on a swivel here. Also the 2300MSL glide slope intercept is to the south of my position. He was supposed to be well above 2300, he was not he was under the glide slope by a good deal, probably at least 300 to 500 feet.

Yeah I am sure he was mad, but that is no reason to blame me for his mistakes.

 

[Patch]

Chicago approach does not give flight following except on rare occasion so there was no one to talk to. Going higher is not an option as there is a class B shelf above and just try getting VFR into the O'Hare class B. This is a choke point for Chicago airspace and is why we keep our heads on a swivel here. Also the 2300MSL glide slope intercept is to the south of my position. He was supposed to be well above 2300, he was not he was under the glide slope by a good deal, probably at least 300 to 500 feet.

Yeah I am sure he was mad, but that is no reason to blame me for his mistakes.

If he was anywhere pointing at the field (161), he was cleared hot to be at 2300. That's if he were flying the full procedure (unlikely). He was likely on vectors that were something like "Maintain 2700 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS 16"

He had every right to be at 2300, and with you at 2200, that's dangerous. What were you flying?

 

[jesse]

If he was anywhere pointing at the field (161), he was cleared hot to be at 2300. That's if he were flying the full procedure (unlikely). He was likely on vectors that were something like "Maintain 2700 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS 16"

He had every right to be at 2300, and with you at 2200, that's dangerous. What were you flying?

Just some advice. It's hard to make friends and aviation contacts on a forum when you come on saying people you don't know are "not smart" in multiple threads. Most of the people on this forum are very active pilots that are very smart. (Scott included). There are a lot of neat opportunities here don't ruin them for yourself.

 

[ScottM]

If he was anywhere pointing at the field (161), he was cleared hot to be at 2300. That's if he were flying the full procedure (unlikely). He was likely on vectors that were something like "Maintain 2700 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS 16"

He had every right to be at 2300, and with you at 2200, that's dangerous. What were you flying?

Are you trying to say I had no right to be at 2200' VFR in class E airspace and under the approach path in CAVU conditions? You might want to review airspace regulation on who has 'rights'.

As for he dangerous comment it is no less or more dangerous than any other time in flying in see and avoid conditions. My point is that he tried to blame this issue as an airspace violation when it clearly was not.

 

[EdFred]

Plus Scott was flying east, and coporate dweeb was flying south. Put that on a diagram...guess who's to the right...

 

[Patch]

Plus Scott was flying east, and coporate dweeb was flying south. Put that on a diagram...guess who's to the right...

I'll quote the right of way rules Jesse quoted earlier:

Sec. 91.113 - Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.
(a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the operation of an aircraft on water.
(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.
(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic.
(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different categories --
(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;
(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, airplane, or rotorcraft; and
(3) An airship has the right-of-way over an airplane or rotorcraft.
However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.
(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.
(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

I'd say ILS final is final approach to land, no?

 

[James_Dean]

Are you trying to say I had no right to be at 2200' VFR in class E airspace and under the approach path in CAVU conditions? You might want to review airspace regulation on who has 'rights'.

As for he dangerous comment it is no less or more dangerous than any other time in flying in see and avoid conditions. My point is that he tried to blame this issue as an airspace violation when it clearly was not.

How dare you get your little plane in the way of a bizjet! They're bigger than you, and the people in the back are probably way more important. I'm shocked and saddened by your actions.




James Dean

 

[Patch]

Are you trying to say I had no right to be at 2200' VFR in class E airspace and under the approach path in CAVU conditions? You might want to review airspace regulation on who has 'rights'.

Having "rights" and making the smart decision aren't always the same.

As for he dangerous comment it is no less or more dangerous than any other time in flying in see and avoid conditions. My point is that he tried to blame this issue as an airspace violation when it clearly was not.

So swap roles. You're flying the ILS to land in a not-so-maneuverable aircraft with everything hanging and rapcon doesn't warn you of traffic. Next thing you get is a TCAS hit with an RA telling you to climb to avoid a dude crossing your final approach course 100' off your altitude (which will cause an RA to climb in most systems). Are you telling me you wouldn't be ****ed? He maneuvered away not because you had the right of way, but because compliance with an RA hit is mandatory.

You're right. You have every right to tool through the final approach course. Just like you can blitz through active MOAs during military training and the like. Is it smart? Absolutely not. Are you helping anyone else? Nope.

What if the dude hadn't picked you up and you hadn't seen him? Who do you think would've taken the blame after the midair?

 

[mikea]

Having "rights" and making the smart decision aren't always the same.




So swap roles. You're flying the ILS to land in a not-so-maneuverable aircraft with everything hanging and rapcon doesn't warn you of traffic. Next thing you get is a TCAS hit with an RA telling you to climb to avoid a dude crossing your final approach course 100' off your altitude (which will cause an RA to climb in most systems). Are you telling me you wouldn't be ****ed? He maneuvered away not because you had the right of way, but because compliance with an RA hit is mandatory.

You're right. You have every right to tool through the final approach course. Just like you can blitz through active MOAs during military training and the like. Is it smart? Absolutely not. Are you helping anyone else? Nope.

What if the dude hadn't picked you up and you hadn't seen him? Who do you think would've taken the blame after the midair?

The "little airplane" or less famous, less rich always gets the blame, of course.

The Cessna that was overun by the PSA that lied about having it in sight was the cause of the midair

The student that was hit by Bob Collins giving his position worng was the cause.

In all cases they need to be sure to not be there when the famous and important come by.


So the final approach is anything north of PWK I guess that means we need visit Green Bay before we turn south for the Chicago lakefront route. I thought the "enhanced Class B" went away 6 weeks afetr 9/11 but maybe I was misinformed.

 

[jesse]

You're right. You have every right to tool through the final approach course. Just like you can blitz through active MOAs during military training and the like. Is it smart? Absolutely not. Are you helping anyone else? Nope.

You don't always have a choice. Busy airspace sucks. If I could always fly in the middle of nowhere all the time I would too. Have you ever had to base out of an airport under/in the Bravo? Or fly around Chicago on a daily basis?

 

[Patch]

You don't always have a choice. Busy airspace sucks. If I could always fly in the middle of nowhere all the time I would too. Have you ever had to base out of an airport under/in the Bravo? Or fly around Chicago on a daily basis?

Yes, I flew out of New Orleans for two years. We had a VFR corridor and almost always had flight following. Not exactly chicago, but still bravo airspace.