One thing that should have been taught to you in basic training, but was not.

denverpilot said:
Hmmm. Interesting points.

Of course while we all know the reality is that, say, a mountain lubber such as myself WON'T know say, coastal fog... not from experience anyway...

Do you think anyone should be signed off for a Private checkride without at least a passing knowledge that coastal weather exists, even if they've never seen it, and since their role has now become Pilot In Command, they'd better look up or talk to some folks who understand it before they go fly to a coastal location from their land-locked high plains existence and life knowledge?

How about by the time they earn an Instrument rating? Commercial? ATP?

Ever met a Private Pilot who wasn't told they "now have a license [sic: certificate] to learn"?

I think about this stuff a lot as a newbie instructor.

I need to get the point across that there's regional weather and things a pilot from "here" won't know "there", but their base knowledge (how to read a weather forecast, map, radar, METAR, TAF, etc etc etc) HAS to cover 90%+ of what they need to know -- and then they have to gain experience on their own. I can't often take them to a coast and show them a marine layer. I can at best show them a photo of it or a video.

The cell phone will always be on too, if someone really has a question -- "Hey, I'm seeing something I've never seen before... and want an opinion..."

I really do think with the basic building blocks learned in the Private rating, someone CAN treat a long XC as a few shorter ones. But they also have to recognize they don't know the regional weather and perhaps alter their personal minimums and what not as they get further from "home".

Plus, who knows? There are students who are military brats or whatnot, who actually have seen all sorts of local weather all over the country or even multiple countries. They'll know more about it than I will... but the base techniques they need to learn won't change.

I can teach how to read stop lights. I can't teach that done city somewhere isn't standard and flips theirs from green through yellow to red a second faster than the usual/standard. But they can still read the stop sign. Can also give a heads up... "I've heard there are a few weird stop lights out there. Especially in X area. If you drive there, keep an eye out for it."

And I wholeheartedly agree with you. A cockpit is a CRAPPY place to be doing a weather briefing. Cockpit weather is to augment a proper briefing on the ground where one's full attention canbe given to the topic at hand.

I think your statement proves the base knowledge works. You know you don't know mountains. You'd ask about them or plan to go around them if your perfect route would take you directly over the Rockies.

Your students in your classes show up (hopefully, I know I know...) with a base knowledge level but don't know as much about genetics as they will when they leave. There's always levels to knowledge. It's super cliche' to say it, I know... but a good pilot is always learning. Long XCs crossing weather systems is a BIG learning step that most folks have to take eventually. Every airport has someone willing to help if something just doesn't seem right or a feeling of "I need to know more about what's happening here..." is nagging a pilot.

And one can always turn around and go back. The ultimate "I'd rather not get hurt doing this" move. One should never be too proud to bail out and go back the other direction.

Example: If one somehow missed that mountains can be dangerous and one encounters continuous moderate turbulence at the foothills, turning around and landing somewhere and asking a local why... instead of plowing on into the heart of the big rocks... shouldn't be ruled out.
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Two things...

You haven't lived till you've flown over LA with a marine layer and seen the lights glowing through it.

And mountain wave is the scariest thing I've EVER experienced.
 
ircphoenix said:
Two things...

You haven't lived till you've flown over LA with a marine layer and seen the lights glowing through it.

And mountain wave is the scariest thing I've EVER experienced.
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You haven't navigated until you've done pilotage by reference to small towns glowing through the clouds.

Mountain wave is one of the most fun things I've ever experienced.

:cool:

It's all perception and training.
 
MauleSkinner said:
You haven't navigated until you've done pilotage by reference to small towns glowing through the clouds.

Mountain wave is one of the most fun things I've ever experienced.

:cool:

It's all perception and training.
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You're absolutely right. I had zero experience and training in mountain wave. So I got in it on the lee side and dooownnnn I went. Had no idea what was happening. Just an instinctual need to get out of it.
 
ircphoenix said:
You're absolutely right. I had zero experience and training in mountain wave. So I got in it on the lee side and dooownnnn I went. Had no idea what was happening. Just an instinctual need to get out of it.
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No. You are correct. Mountain wave is one of the most dangerous weather phenoms anyone will encounter in aviation. It takes a lot of training to recognize and avoid trouble in mountain flying and is why those without that training/experience often end up in a heaping pile of aircraft on the ground and worse.
 
citizen5000 said:
No. You are correct. Mountain wave is one of the most dangerous weather phenoms anyone will encounter in aviation. It takes a lot of training to recognize and avoid trouble in mountain flying and is why those without that training/experience often end up in a heaping pile of aircraft on the ground and worse.
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Define "a lot".

Most of the pilots I've worked with who have extensive mountain wave experience had some ground instruction and MAYBE an hour or two of flight instruction in wave. I just had the ground instruction, but I've only spent a couple of hours actually in wave.

Also, what, exactly, makes it so dangerous?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Most of the pilots I've worked with who have extensive mountain wave experience had some ground instruction and maybe an hour or two of flight instruction in wave. Also, what, exactly, makes it so dangerous?
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Experience is the best teacher but before being caught in these updrafts and downdrafts one should be forewarned how they work (hopefully you will go up with a CFI first and get a taste).
 
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I would say there are lots of things in aviation that are far more dangerous than wave...

Since air doesn't go through the ground, you shouldn't be pushed into the ground in the down side. (Trees are another matter.)

In the up side, fly directly upwind or downwind, and you'll be out of it soon (same on the down side).

Wave rotor mostly occurs near the top of the wave. "Mountain rotor winds" are something else entirely.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
I would say there are lots of things in aviation that are far more dangerous than wave...

Since air doesn't go through the ground, you shouldn't be pushed into the ground in the down side. (Trees are another matter.)

In the up side, fly directly upwind or downwind, and you'll be out of it soon (same on the down side).

Wave rotor only occurs year the top of the wave. "Mountain rotor winds" are something else entirely.
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I didn't realize that the autopilot in a 172SP has an automatic mountain wave warning. It just sounds like "TRIM IN MOTION" and the trim wheel won't stop trimming up.
 
ircphoenix said:
I didn't realize that the autopilot in a 172SP has an automatic mountain wave warning. It just sounds like "TRIM IN MOTION" and the trim wheel won't stop trimming up.
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I didn't say it did...maybe improper use or understanding of the autopilot is one of the most dangerous things in aviation. ;)
 
MauleSkinner said:
I didn't say it did...maybe improper use or understanding of the autopilot is one of the most dangerous things in aviation.
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I know you didn't say it did. I said it did. LoL. That was my first indication that something was wrong was when the plane started pitching up due to the downdraft and wouldn't quit. I immediately disconnected the AP and haven't used it since... then again I bought my own plane without autopilot, so hand flying is kind of a thing I have to do whether I like it or not.
 
citizen5000 said:
Experience is the best teacher but before being caught in these updrafts and downdrafts one should be forewarned how they work (hopefully you will go up with a CFI first and get a taste).

The danger is lack of power to fly out of the effect. In an updraft a Cessna 172 for instance can easily be overcome and lifted like a glider to altitudes that require oxygen. In an even more dangerous downdraft the same plane can easily be pushed into terrain with no ability to fly out of the effect. Mountain wave can produce higher than 100 kt winds wind current that can easily overcome most small GA planes.

The telltale valley lenticulars are the best hint that mountain wave is present. During summer the danger is increased and the effect more frequent. Higher density altitudes which reduce power can also adversely and exaggerate the ill effects of mountain wave.

Mountain rotor winds can flip these planes over and drive them into terrain also.
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this post. Prolly just not respond to it and suggest the crazy aunt should stay upstairs.
 
Clark1961 said:
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this post.
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Here are a few (there are hundreds) of examples why mountain wave is no joke:

Deadly Downdrafts: Understanding the Risks http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/weather/deadly-downdrafts-understanding-risks
The Hidden Dangers Of Mountain Wave http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-...ain-wave-forms-and-the-dangers-it-can-create/
Weater.gov: Dangers of Mountain Wave Turbulence https://www.weather.gov/media/publications/front/11nov-front.pdf
Violent Rogue Wind Emerges in Search for Clues to Air Crash http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/11/u...emerges-in-search-for-clues-to-air-crash.html
FAA AC-05 Hazardous Mountain Winds https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/00-57.pdf
NTSB: Turbulence Related Accidents & Incidents http://www.ral.ucar.edu/general/Tur...ions/Day1/Eick_TurbulenceRelatedAccidents.pdf
Mountain Wave for the ATC Specialist http://home.earthlink.net/~shp1/waveforatc.html
Cessna No Match for Mountain Wave https://generalaviationnews.com/2010/11/14/cessna-no-match-for-mountain-waves/
NTSB: Pilot Battled to Keep Altitude Before Crash Due To Mountain Wave http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...5e73792e-e826-11df-aa92-001cc4c03286.amp.html
The Dynamics of Mountain-Wave-Induced Rotors https://www.atmos.washington.edu/~durrand/pdfs/AMS/2002Doyle_Durran.pdf
NTSB Final Report: Mountain Wave Downs Westwind Commercial Flight http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...-30/final-report-mountain-wave-downs-westwind

 
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citizen5000 said:

I tried to help those without experience but I guess a few examples are needed given this kind comment:

Deadly Downdrafts: Understanding the Risks http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/weather/deadly-downdrafts-understanding-risks
The Hidden Dangers Of Mountain Wave http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-...ain-wave-forms-and-the-dangers-it-can-create/
Weater.gov: Dangers of Mountain Wave Turbulence https://www.weather.gov/media/publications/front/11nov-front.pdf
Violent Rogue Wind Emerges in Search for Clues to Air Crash http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/11/u...emerges-in-search-for-clues-to-air-crash.html
FAA AC-05 Hazardous Mountain Winds https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/00-57.pdf
NTSB: Turbulence Related Accidents & Incidents http://www.ral.ucar.edu/general/Tur...ions/Day1/Eick_TurbulenceRelatedAccidents.pdf
Mountain Wave for the ATC Specialist http://home.earthlink.net/~shp1/waveforatc.html
Cessna No Match for Mountain Wave https://generalaviationnews.com/2010/11/14/cessna-no-match-for-mountain-waves/
NTSB: Pilot Battled to Keep Altitude Before Crash Due To Mountain Wave http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...5e73792e-e826-11df-aa92-001cc4c03286.amp.html
The Dynamics of Mountain-Wave-Induced Rotors https://www.atmos.washington.edu/~durrand/pdfs/AMS/2002Doyle_Durran.pdf
NTSB Final Report: Mountain Wave Downs Westwind Commercial Flight http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...-30/final-report-mountain-wave-downs-westwind
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Reading is no substitute for understanding and experience. Your writing indicated to me that you have no experience or you don't understand. Maybe you are just a poor writer. Maybe you really are clueless. I still don't know whether to laugh or cry. Best for you to stay upstairs...
 
My first "real" mountain wave experience scared the living hell out of me. Airplane was going down and I was at full throttle with no apparent change in altitude. Even with much more experience flying in and around the mountains I'm still not completely comfortable. I still have a great deal of respect for them.
 
Timbeck2 said:
My first "real" mountain wave experience scared the living hell out of me. Airplane was going down and I was at full throttle with no apparent change in altitude. Even with much more experience flying in and around the mountains I'm still not completely comfortable. I still have a great deal of respect for them.
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Wave can be powerful and must be respected. It gives the big guys problems in the flight levels. It gives us problems in our spam cans but they are usually smooth for us. Rotors can give us many more problems in our spam cans if we are foolish enough to wander into them. The real problem is recognizing when a problem really exists vs this is just a quite a ride situation. I've got a story about 50 knot winds aloft in the San Louis valley...

I've never heard the term "valley lenticulars" or that wave somehow magically increases wind speed. Both were things that the cirrus500 guy claimed.
 
Clark1961 said:
Wave can be powerful and must be respected.
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As with almost everything in aviation. (Cubs aren't powerful, but they still must be respected. ;) )

My first wave experience was as an instructor...smooth, enjoyable ride, and the guys with local experience figured it went over 20k. We didn't have O2, so we quit at 14k.

I've had a couple of occasions where they were lined up not too far off my flight path in the jets...20 degrees off course for a hundred miles or so made a bunch of fuel. :)

I've never managed to blunder into rotor, but I did get up to .94M before we got the thrust reduced blundering in to the up side once.
 
denverpilot said:
I'm sure @Clark1961 and I would both love to know which mountain airports @citizen5000 operates out of regularly. LOL.
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KRNO, KTRK, KRTS, KHTH, KCXP, KTVL, KHEG, KVGT, KHND, KMMH, KO02 (Nervino), KO24 (Lee Vining), and KMEV

(Note. KMEV is Minden-Tahoe which is one of the world's largest sailplane fields. Mountain wave is so common in the Carson Valley that Minden is a destination worldwide for glider enthusiasts.)
 
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