One thing that should have been taught to you in basic training, but was not.

[Ravioli]

^^^^ thanks for not doing the math and telling me the ratio I gave is WAY off. I based it on roughly $200k gross. I doubt the average student is pulling that.

 

[SCCutler]

Turning climbing stalls. Never did anything like 'em, was asked to demonstrate during checkride. So I did an approach to stall while in a standard-raster turn and climbing, keeping the plane coordinated (like my instructor always taught me to do), and as soon as I got into the stall horn, DPE said, "well-done, recover and let's move on."

 

[Jozu]

I trained on traditional steam gauges and am thankful that I did but only found out later how useful an iPad running Garmin Pilot or Foreflight could be. I had to learn all that on my own and from other pilots. Digital W&B tools, digital logs, etc. All provide not only utility but an increased safety element and should be given a stronger emphasis in training.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kritchlow]

You're right, I shouldn't have lowered myself to his level. No professional pilot (define professional to suit yourself) should ever use, or defense the use of, ATITAPA radio calls.

By the way, it wasn't an unprovoked attack, it is a general statement that is applicable to any pilot who makes ATITAPA calls on the radio, at any time, near any airport, for any reason. Listen while you are taxiing, make calls while you are taxiing (starting when you begin to move), listen while approaching, make calls while approaching, and don't wait until just a couple of miles away--ten miles out on approach is a good place for your first call, but you should begin ,intending before that.

This is all basic stuff, covered in AIM and reinforced by my primary CFI. Rules don't stop being applicable on your way home from your checkride . . . . Neither do good manners. It also keeps Flight Reviews simple.

So... anyone with a student pilot cert who has the same thoughts you (thus doesn't agree with me) is correct and I'm a dumbass. Okay. I'll run with that.
But just to be consistent please send the next 10 hour student up to fly my airplane carrying 200+ passengers. Obviously they will know waaaayy more than us up front. Of course, they must be POA folks. You are truly the experts here. I bow to the superior 300 hour PP.

 

[Hank S]

I passed 300 hours years ago.

Many of us would prefer if you bowed to the AIM and drop the ATITAPA . . . . If there are 2 or more planes around, which one is supposed to answer you first, and how do they all know it? It's just wasted bandwidth.

 

[Kritchlow]

I passed 300 hours years ago.

Many of us would prefer if you bowed to the AIM and drop the ATITAPA . . . . If there are 2 or more planes around, which one is supposed to answer you first, and how do they all know it? It's just wasted bandwidth.

Just seen too many ugly experiences. Traffic in the practice area that are close and monitoring but not announcing is yet another scenario.

I don't want to get ugly, but a good discussion is always helpful.

 

[Hank S]

I've also had bad ATITAPA experience, as I was rotating on 8 with my CFII at dusk, along comes Bozo with "ATITAPA, one mile east." All I could do was repeat that I was departing 8, and hoped he wasn't in front of me when I came over the trees. The field was 3000' long with a drop-off to a road then tall, tall trees that are in the way landing on 26.

What kind of genius makes his first call one mile from the airport, while crossing the extended departure line to enter downwind? Fortunately he was gone by the time I returned a couple of hours later. But I did see him right there in my landing light, moving right to left . . . .

 

[Kritchlow]

Il

I've also had bad ATITAPA experience, as I was rotating on 8 with my CFII at dusk, along comes Bozo with "ATITAPA, one mile east." All I could do was repeat that I was departing 8, and hoped he wasn't in front of me when I came over the trees. The field was 3000' long with a drop-off to a road then tall, tall trees that are in the way landing on 26.

What kind of genius makes his first call one mile from the airport, while crossing the extended departure line to enter downwind? Fortunately he was gone by the time I returned a couple of hours later. But I did see him right there in my landing light, moving right to left . . . .

yea... the one mile call was not good. But that's not a blame of atitaoa

 

[Hank S]

Il

yea... the one mile call was not good. But that's not a blame of atitaoa

No, but the AIM is quite explicit that it not be used. Why are you so strongly in favor of going against their recommendation? Yes, I know the FARs are regulatory and the AIM isn't, but still . . . .

 

[Kritchlow]

No, but the AIM is quite explicit that it not be used. Why are you so strongly in favor of going against their recommendation? Yes, I know the FARs are regulatory and the AIM isn't, but still . . . .

Fair question.
And as I said earlier, only because I have seen so many mishaps in such situations. Perhaps someone accidentally didn't announce, perhaps I didn't hear them, perhaps I forgot to announce, perhaps they didn't hear me, perhaps any of the above were blocked. Perhaps the student pilot didn't realize the speed of the departure. Should I trust a 20 hour solo student to avoid the jet, or is it prudent of me to realize I'm in a training environment and should take precautions before I depart at three times their speed?? A double check, which is more than commonplace in aviation, is warranted.
You nay not agree, but to call that "dumbass" is not fair IMO.

 

[Hank S]

I've only had trouble with one jet departure: I was flying the valley south out of Bozeman, not used to visibility much beyond 12-15 nm and looking for KCOD. A Cessna called departure to the east, I couldn't see him or the airport. He confirmed eastbound track, still no joy. On his third call he said, "Cessna--no Citation XXXX, departing Cody to the east," and I looked from near my 12:00 out to my 9:00 and saw him disappearing over the mountains.

Finally saw the airport just before it went under my cowling, I had been looking way, way past it, judging distance by visibility, meaning the furthest thing I could see clearly was 12-15 nm away, just like at home in the Ohio River Valley. Out there, it was probably 75-100 miles.

But the first couple of hundred hours are for learning, and I was pushing 200 at the time.

 

[Kritchlow]

I've only had trouble with one jet departure: I was flying the valley south out of Bozeman, not used to visibility much beyond 12-15 nm and looking for KCOD. A Cessna called departure to the east, I couldn't see him or the airport. He confirmed eastbound track, still no joy. On his third call he said, "Cessna--no Citation XXXX, departing Cody to the east," and I looked from near my 12:00 out to my 9:00 and saw him disappearing over the mountains.

Finally saw the airport just before it went under my cowling, I had been looking way, way past it, judging distance by visibility, meaning the furthest thing I could see clearly was 12-15 nm away, just like at home in the Ohio River Valley. Out there, it was probably 75-100 miles.

But the first couple of hundred hours are for learning, and I was pushing 200 at the time.

Well I'm glad that worked out... but for some it may not.

I'm not trying to coax anyone here to make the ATITAPA call. I also understand (sort of) if you don't want to respond when I say it.

All I ask is don't criticize me for asking...
I feel it my job to do my best to understand where the traffic is in the area before I depart. I also understand it's far from perfect.

But to call me a dumbass for trying...???

 

[ircphoenix]

Why can't you just make your normal position call?

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

 

[Hank S]

I'll answer the call, but not very politely, depending on my mood and the circumstances.

What we are doing is criticizing you for making the ATITAPA call. But you can't seem to understand why . . . It's all in the AIM, quoted above by someone else.

Just make standard calls, which even 20 hr. solo student pilots are used to hearing. If your 5 mile call is one minute after your 10 mile call, they should have an idea of your speed. And identify yourself in the calls in a way that the students will understand, i.e., "Citation Jet XXX" instead of "Cessna XXX" should penetrate even the thickest skulls.

It won't hurt to make a call as you are taxiing out to the runway, too, so that the first they hear of you isn't as you are blasting down the runway with a closing speed of 0.5 M. In an area of intensive training activity, talk so the students can understand you, and give them time to react. This is not the same thing as talking down to them.

 

[Kritchlow]

I'll answer the call, but not very politely, depending on my mood and the circumstances.

What we are doing is criticizing you for making the ATITAPA call. But you can't seem to understand why . . . It's all in the AIM, quoted above by someone else.

Just make standard calls, which even 20 hr. solo student pilots are used to hearing. If your 5 mile call is one minute after your 10 mile call, they should have an idea of your speed. And identify yourself in the calls in a way that the students will understand, i.e., "Citation Jet XXX" instead of "Cessna XXX" should penetrate even the thickest skulls.

It won't hurt to make a call as you are taxiing out to the runway, too, so that the first they hear of you isn't as you are blasting down the runway with a closing speed of 0.5 M. In an area of intensive training activity, talk so the students can understand you, and give them time to react. This is not the same thing as talking down to them.

Do (did) make the taxi call. Never talked down to anyone.
I think we have come to a point of agree to disagree. It's truly not worth arguing over.

That said, I respect your opinion although I disagree with it.
I wish you (and others) could do the same.

I'm out.

 

[denverpilot]

"How to stay out of ATITPPA threads on PoA..."

 

[Xscaliber]

Never once in my training did I ever get flight following. If I were an instructor, there would be one lesson dedicated to picking up flight following transitioning airspace landing at a towered field. but I learned that all of the fly

Same with me, I had the same CFI throughout my training and never once was flight following discussed or demonstrated.
Same with Class Bravo, I trained inbetween Tampa & Orlando airspace and not once did he take me into the Class Bravo.

The first time I had to go into Bravo as a newbie PPL I was quite nervous but once I heard those magic words "N12345 Cleared into Bravo" and talking to a great approuch guy it was a non event and I've never had any problems since, in fact I can't recall ever being denied access into Bravo anywhere.

 

[orange]

Glad I'm not the only one

Me three on the self-serve fuel thing.

For me:
non-towered airports: I did my training and 90% of flights in/out of busy Class D. My CFI and I did exactly 1 flight into Brookhaven (15 minutes away from FRG) for touch and go's at a time in the late afternoon when it was pretty dead. I know how to do the call out by the book. But I know there is an informal system at non-towered airports when it's busy where pilots talk to each other, decide whether there is enough spacing for takeoff/landing, right of way, etc. I would have liked to get more practice. I know that I could've asked for it. But you don't know what you don't know until you need to know it.

With Islip ISP (class C) so close by, I would have wanted to do a few full stop flights there (we did 2 I think, always touch and go's) with approach and then clearance on the way out. We covered it during 1 ground lesson and that was it. I finally got experience with approach and clearance when I flew into Bradley (BDL).

 

[orange]

Let's see. Things that should be taught that I *did* do during PP training:
New pilots don't know the ins and outs of non-flight school FBOs, courtesy cars and the etiquette involved with them, etc. so it's not in their comfort zone to do something like this right off the bat. I think it'd be a great help to GA if we taught people what they need to know to both use and have fun with GA after they're done with their certificate.

Yes, I should have added this to my post. I know some airports charge landing fees, but I never knew about ramp fees. And are courtesy cars like a rental or are they a loaner for a couple of hours? The etiquette with all that would be nice to experience.

 

[Tantalum]

etiquette

THAT! I know a lot of people balk at the idea of ground school, but some "aviation basics" would have been nice to teach. Most of the non-flying parts of GA I have learned just through trial and error, talking to other pilots, etc.

 

[Blueangel]

For those of us that have our PPL's or are working towards them. Name something that you feel should be taught, but most people are not. Or something you have learned since you ticket that you feel is extremely useful. My two thing to start.

I wish that I had done landings on real grass and dirt strips for soft field/short field technique but most likely the CFI did not do this because of the flight school concerns and insurance. Hopefully when I get back into it, I can do this with a tailwheel checkout. Landing on dirt sod and grass strips would be great training as an emergency landing would probably be on a sod field.

 

[cfitzgerald]

"How to stay out of ATITPPA threads on PoA..."

Kritchlow:

Up until now, I have managed to stay out of these discussions, but I think I might have something at least marginally constructive to add to the thought process. So, please stay with me through this overly-long post.

I get where you're coming from - you're new on the scene (whether arriving or departing), you're moving pretty fast, and you don't know where anyone is. And if we're in each other's way, I definitely want you to know where I am - whatever we have to say on the radio to find out. But I've never been a fan of the "any traffic . . ." request, partly because it isn't what you really mean.

Here's a scenario to illustrate: You are taxiing on to 17 and announce that you will depart the area to the southeast. Plane 1 is abeam the numbers on left downwind for 17. Plane 2 is turning from the 45 into left downwind for 17 with Plane 1 in sight. I'm in Plane 3 inside the outer marker shooting a practice LOC to 35 with a circle to land on 17. (For grins and giggles we could put planes 4 and 5 out to the east and west inbound for landing, but let's leave them out for now.) When I hear you make your departure call, I'm going to be talking as soon as you finish your transmission ("any traffic" request or not). In fact, you and I are going to be coordinating with each other until one of us sees the other one - very politely, I might add. And until you and I find each other, or are otherwise convinced we don't have a conflict, I want Planes 1 and 2 to keep their mouths shut so you and I can talk - and I suspect you do, too. Then, once we find each other, I'll keep talking to you so you know EXACTLY what I'm going to do. Heck, I'll even get out of your way.

In this scenario, you didn't really mean ANY traffic please advise, you meant any traffic that could be a problem, please advise. But Planes 1 and 2 may not have the good sense not to key their mics. In fact, they may be new to this and think they are supposed to respond. Now, maybe there is no harm in them speaking up if you and I still have some time before we're at the same place, but anything either of them says is just going to be useless noise to you, and way down the list of priorities for me. And they might take up time that you and I need. There are all kinds of other scenarios where you might call and I might be "in the area," but I'm not someone you care about because there is no possible way we're going to get anywhere close to each other. In those instances, I'm going to keep my mouth shut when you call, "any traffic" request or not, so the frequency will be open for someone who needs it. I'll continue to make my normal radio calls, if I have any left to make, at normal times. You'll learn where I am at that time, and you won't care that you are just finding out because we're not an issue for each other.

Again, I understand your thought process (I think) - you figure if someone isn't sure whether there is a potential conflict or not, better to have them say something. I agree with that. But if they don't know whether there is a potential conflict or not, they should be talking whether you add the "any traffic" call or not. I certainly would be because I don't want either of us to die. In the end, there are all kinds of "what ifs" and I suspect that whoever came up with the provision in the AIM weighed all the possibilities and concluded that the potential harm of the "any traffic" requests outweighs the potential benefits.

From what I read on airplane forums, many pilots seem to have an emotional response to the "any traffic" request. I wonder if some (not necessarily all) of them have such a response because they consider it insulting. Perhaps what they hear is "I don't trust you to determine whether there is a potential conflict or not, so tell the superior pilot and I'll figure it out." That's a shame if anyone feels that way on either end of the transmission, because you're just trying to do your part to keep everyone safe. For those of us that don't have the emotional response, I think we just have a difference of opinion on whether the request reasonably adds to the mix.

Hope this helps you understand the "anti" point of view. Too bad we can't discuss in person, because I think we would both enjoy the conversation. I'll just close by suggesting that if you aren't convinced not to use ATITAPA, perhaps you could tweak it to what you really mean, "any traffic in my way speak up or move!" [insert big smiley face here]

Cheers.

 

[denverpilot]

Kritchlow:

Methinks you need to look more carefully at who you quoted. (Facepalm...)

 

[cfitzgerald]

Methinks you need to look more carefully at who you quoted. (Facepalm...)

Quoted you n purpose because I didn't learn how to stay out of the discussion. My apologies for any confusion.

 

[orange]

Steveo1kinevo asks if anybody is in the pattern at non-towered airports. And he's the best pilot that I know. If it's god enough for him, it's good enough for me.

Check it out at 1:58:

 

[denverpilot]

Steveo1kinevo asks if anybody is in the pattern at non-towered airports. And he's the best pilot that I know. If it's god enough for him, it's good enough for me.

Check it out at 1:58:

LOL... you're trying to stir the pot real bad, aren't you? ;-)

 

[X3 Skier]

Steveo1kinevo asks if anybody is in the pattern at non-towered airports. And he's the best pilot that I know. If it's god enough for him, it's good enough for me.

Check it out at 1:58:

But he didn't use a starting check list!

Cheers

 

[orange]

He never files a VFR flight plan either.

 

[Tantalum]

How to stay out of ATITPPA threads on PoA...

I probably haven't been here long enough to know the full PoA history to threads mentioned above, but personally here is what I do... seems like a "one size fits all" approach. Feedback welcome

Assume VFR:
When I am 10 miles out from uncontrolled airport I'll dial up the AWOS/ASOS again to get the conditions.. from there I'll tune in the local CTAF. If I'm on flight following and they don't let me go at this point I'll cancel FF. I like to be listening to the CTAF no later than 7-8 miles out so I can start to familiarize myself with the airport. If I hear folks talking and the airport is obviously buzzing then I'll go with the standard stuff "Black and white Skyhawk is 6 miles to the south at 2,500, will enter left downwind runway X for touch and go" or whatever. And call out from there

If however I don't hear anyone after I dial them up for a few moments I will call up a generic "anyone in the pattern or getting ready at Borrego Springs? If I don't get a response I'll still do the call outs, because why not. But if I do get someone I'll ask them what runway they're favoring, etc., if the winds are calm

 

[denverpilot]

I probably haven't been here long enough to know the full PoA history to threads mentioned above, but personally here is what I do... seems like a "one size fits all" approach. Feedback welcome

Use search box. Type ATITPPA into it. Read for days. LOL.

Why are you guys quoting ME on this?! I posted that I'm trying to stay OUT OF IT! (LOL!)

New answer:

"How to stay out of both ATITPPA debates on PoA, and also not get QUOTED about them!" LOL LOL LOL

 

[Clark1961]

Use search box. Type ATITPPA into it. Read for days. LOL.

Why are you guys quoting ME on this?! I posted that I'm trying to stay OUT OF IT! (LOL!)

New answer:

"How to stay out of both ATITPPA debates on PoA, and also not get QUOTED about them!" LOL LOL LOL

I'm sure that if you write a good lesson plan....

 

[tinerj]

Which of the control surfaces is the last one to lose authority.

 

[Kritchlow]

A slight, but important difference... ANTIT PATERN is slightly diffenrent than ANTIT AREA..
which I believe I pointed out earlier.

Anyway, I'm a fan. of both.

I'm at the bar drinkinking Jack Daniels at the moment. I will read Cfitgeralds post and analyze later.... if I'm not plowed.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm sure that if you write a good lesson plan....

That one might read ...

"Find large stick. Beat anyone who brings up ATITPPA on PoA with stick."

Have to keep it simple, you know. The student is 90% saturated.

 

[Dave Theisen]

I sense a 6PC satire video in the works.

 

[Kritchlow]

Kritchlow:

Up until now, I have managed to stay out of these discussions, but I think I might have something at least marginally constructive to add to the thought process. So, please stay with me through this overly-long post.

I get where you're coming from - you're new on the scene (whether arriving or departing), you're moving pretty fast, and you don't know where anyone is. And if we're in each other's way, I definitely want you to know where I am - whatever we have to say on the radio to find out. But I've never been a fan of the "any traffic . . ." request, partly because it isn't what you really mean.

Here's a scenario to illustrate: You are taxiing on to 17 and announce that you will depart the area to the southeast. Plane 1 is abeam the numbers on left downwind for 17. Plane 2 is turning from the 45 into left downwind for 17 with Plane 1 in sight. I'm in Plane 3 inside the outer marker shooting a practice LOC to 35 with a circle to land on 17. (For grins and giggles we could put planes 4 and 5 out to the east and west inbound for landing, but let's leave them out for now.) When I hear you make your departure call, I'm going to be talking as soon as you finish your transmission ("any traffic" request or not). In fact, you and I are going to be coordinating with each other until one of us sees the other one - very politely, I might add. And until you and I find each other, or are otherwise convinced we don't have a conflict, I want Planes 1 and 2 to keep their mouths shut so you and I can talk - and I suspect you do, too. Then, once we find each other, I'll keep talking to you so you know EXACTLY what I'm going to do. Heck, I'll even get out of your way.

In this scenario, you didn't really mean ANY traffic please advise, you meant any traffic that could be a problem, please advise. But Planes 1 and 2 may not have the good sense not to key their mics. In fact, they may be new to this and think they are supposed to respond. Now, maybe there is no harm in them speaking up if you and I still have some time before we're at the same place, but anything either of them says is just going to be useless noise to you, and way down the list of priorities for me. And they might take up time that you and I need. There are all kinds of other scenarios where you might call and I might be "in the area," but I'm not someone you care about because there is no possible way we're going to get anywhere close to each other. In those instances, I'm going to keep my mouth shut when you call, "any traffic" request or not, so the frequency will be open for someone who needs it. I'll continue to make my normal radio calls, if I have any left to make, at normal times. You'll learn where I am at that time, and you won't care that you are just finding out because we're not an issue for each other.

Again, I understand your thought process (I think) - you figure if someone isn't sure whether there is a potential conflict or not, better to have them say something. I agree with that. But if they don't know whether there is a potential conflict or not, they should be talking whether you add the "any traffic" call or not. I certainly would be because I don't want either of us to die. In the end, there are all kinds of "what ifs" and I suspect that whoever came up with the provision in the AIM weighed all the possibilities and concluded that the potential harm of the "any traffic" requests outweighs the potential benefits.

From what I read on airplane forums, many pilots seem to have an emotional response to the "any traffic" request. I wonder if some (not necessarily all) of them have such a response because they consider it insulting. Perhaps what they hear is "I don't trust you to determine whether there is a potential conflict or not, so tell the superior pilot and I'll figure it out." That's a shame if anyone feels that way on either end of the transmission, because you're just trying to do your part to keep everyone safe. For those of us that don't have the emotional response, I think we just have a difference of opinion on whether the request reasonably adds to the mix.

Hope this helps you understand the "anti" point of view. Too bad we can't discuss in person, because I think we would both enjoy the conversation. I'll just close by suggesting that if you aren't convinced not to use ATITAPA, perhaps you could tweak it to what you really mean, "any traffic in my way speak up or move!" [insert big smiley face here]

Cheers.

Well, I do thank you for the well thought out and considerate post. I honestly enjoy a good, thoughtful banter without name calling. After all, that's how many if us learn!!

What I initially took away from your post is that it's likely there are too many darn airplanes to respond at once. I get that. Totally.

When departing IFR we don't usually know our exact departure direction, as we may get a vector shortly after takeoff; therefore I do try to get the big picture.
Now that said, I'm also smart enough to realize if there are airplanes all over on a busy weekend I'm SOL on this call, I would probably sit back and wait to hear calls to establish the picture.
Of course that's the rare occasion. The common situation is departing a low volume training field with perhaps 1 or 2 planes in the area. It is my discretion to to find out where those folks may be. At times we have a 30 second taxi and no calls are made from others between me taxiing and takeoff. Should I just trust the 20 hour student to see and hear me, or as a commercial pilot do I have the responsibility to do my best to avoid traffic?
Like everything in aviation you can write a rule or advisory in the AIM.
Fact is good judgement always rules the day.

I mean heck... if everything in aviation was correct on the first try, why do we read back clearances??

 

[cfitzgerald]

I appreciate your response.

I honestly enjoy a good, thoughtful banter without name calling.

That is apparent from your posts. That's why I was willing to jump in this time.

Fact is good judgement always rules the day.

Couldn't agree more. And my good (but slow arriving) judgment tells me that this horse has been beaten to death yet again. But maybe we at least understand each other just a little more. Next time I'm tempted to say something, though, I'm dialing up Denverpilot for a lesson. He won't need to hit me with that stick more than once.

Now back to my anonymous lurking.

 

[citizen5000]

The "is anyone in the pattern or in the area" radio call can actually be dangerous. Why? Because if you assume after hearing no answer that you are good to go you may be less vigilant in your scan. The AIM says to identify yourself, give altitude and distance from the airport as you would in a towered environment as an initial call. Then before attempting to enter the pattern make another call announcing the intent. Another call on downwind, base and approach.

 

[murphey]

If I end up getting my CFI ticket I will spend a lot of time going over NTSB reports with my students. Fun things like solo XC's and practicing maneuvers will be punctuated with the occasional sobering review of NTSB reports...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fascinating....I do that with my computer science students. There are far too many factual reports of injuries and deaths due to poor software and/or good software but poor design/requirements. One of my favorites is an xray machine from the 60s. Don't forget the lost spacecraft due to one group using metric and the other using english and no one paying attention during reviews.

 

[murphey]

That's one of the videos I watched to learn how to use chains to tie down. Even if you can't get the s-hook through the tie-down like in the video you can usually get one link through far enough to put another link through it (like in the video) and then the s-hook through the link to lock it off so that the force is on the link, not the s-hook.

Which is how I was taught - use the links, the s-hook is the lock. Now I carry my own ropes, just in case.