Old complex training aircraft

All dogs are good dogs. All planes are cool planes.

Except the Ercoupe. Planes should have rudders.

All Ercoupes/Aircoupes have rudders, some just don't have the pedals. :)

LOL!

I spoke with someone last week who is buying an Ercoupe and is looking to train for his sport certificate in it. They're having trouble finding a CFI with time in one. I won't do the training for various reasons but I did tell them that if they found a willing CFI, I'd be happy to spend a day checking them out. But the most important part is, we will need a day with crosswinds since everything that CFI ever learned about crosswind landings is wrong in a Ercoupe.
 
My PA 28 180hp Arrow was my favorite airplane ever…planned on 135 knots with a couple of speed mods and scimitar prop upgrade and useful load at 1000 pounds, while burning 8-9 gals an hour. It was just fun to fly and easy to maintain.
135Kts, that’s all? I routinely see 135 KTAS in my Tiger!
 
Several GA aircraft were primarily used for complex training, they were not that good at anything else and cost was the primary reason for them. Those with retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, as defined by the FAA as "complex aircraft", popular examples include the Cessna 172 RG, Cessna 182 RG, Piper Arrow. After 2018 flight schools dumped them and people bought them up for their own use. With the extra cost of the propellers, complex landing gear and little better than or worse performance than a Piper PA-28-180 fixed pitch prop and fixed landing gear over the cost of a PA28R-180 why would you do that.
The R182 is a fantastic airplane. It takes the "do it all" 182 and removes its biggest drawback (that being that it doesn't go very far/fast on a gallon of avgas). Fly anything you can fit in the door at 150 KTAS into an unimproved short strip? No problem. It's definitely the best of the three you mentioned. And FWIW, when our club went from a 182 to an R182 we gained close to 20 knots.

Arrow? I don't know that I'd want to own one, but I've "hit for the cycle" with Arrows (flown the I, II, III, and IV) and they're good airplanes. Not hard to fly, purchase prices are reasonable, speed is OK, gear system is reasonably simple and reliable.

The gutless Cutless? Yeah, pass on that. It doesn't have the utility of the 182 or the reliable gear system of the Arrow. Not much to get excited about. However, if you get one at the right price, why not?

I don't understand the inclusion of the "182RG" in the OP's list. That one seems to be a pretty good performer and certainly doesn't fit in the "complex trainer" category. I don't know that I'd ever seen a flight school with one on their line.
I finished off my commercial in a rental-line R182. It's still there, too, 17 years later: https://hapsair.com/rentals/

Right now, my log book wants hours, fulfilled requirements, and endorsements. It could not care less about miles. But, I can see how a 28R, hauling twice what a 152 will haul, at a 30% faster cruise speed, while burning about the same quantity of fuel over the same distance would appeal. And I can see how an even faster 201 would appeal even more.
We think about cost per hour in training and it's easy to get hung up on that... But my primary mission for my airplane is to go places, so I look at cost per mile. My Mooney can pretty much beat the airlines anywhere east of the Rockies door to door, for a cost per mile lower than that of a C172. That's a win.

All the way back when I was renting and I wanted to go places, the same was still true - It was cheaper to rent the Arrow on a per-mile basis than the 172.

@brien23 The ratio of utility to acquisition cost is pretty good on some of the former complex trainers too.

Mooney owners often compare their airplanes with Bonanzas. Bonanza owners don't seem to compare their airplanes to Mooneys.
Even if they don't, the rest of the world sure does. Both fine airplanes... If I were a few inches shorter and had extra $$ for acquisition, I'd have looked hard at an A36. They combine an awful lot of nice attributes into one plane.

I owned a V-tail for 17 years, and it was far more comfortable than the Mooney I was in this morning.
I would agree, if I weren't so darn tall. I do love a Bonanza, but the semicircular top of the cabin cross section means I'm constantly bumping my head where the "corner" would be if it were just a hair more squared off like a Comanche is.
 
As a renter- i have access to C152-182T, DA-40NG. Piper arrcher, and until recently- a 200 hp arrow.

Latter was my pick when I flew solo, bay area to boulder CO, over all the high rocks en route. Leaned out at altitude, very efficient fuel burn for the airspeed.

(I love mooney M20s, too)
 
That's a nice selection of choices! Flying club? How is availability for trips?
San Carlos Flight Center- top notch private- they’re great for shorter trips (4 days or less)
They have a big, diverse fleet.

The arrow was in the fleet (leaseback) at California airways in Hayward- had excellent availability for trips, but the rest of their fleet doesn’t.

Suburban in Hayward is where I rent another 182T, so far good availability, but their minima may preclude me taking for anything but a 2 day trip.

By far the best in the bay area, afaik, is flying particles in livermore. Sadly just too far away from me in the city. They have a very reasonable daily reservation fee but no minimum hours for weeklong trips. And they have an M20. Nonprofit club
 
Does that mean you are a truer pilot if you own both???? :D :D :D
Only if they’re both the same plane. Bonus points for multi engine but we won’t deduct points from pilots with a Staggerwing, Cruisair, or the like.
 
How about a Twin Radial Retractable Taildragger?
As long as it has NDB and no GPS. Then, and only then, can you call yourself a real pilot.

Found online.
The AT-11 is my "lottery warbird". Basically a Beech 18 with a bomber nose. Would be super cool for giving people rides. :)
 
Guy here at cmi bought a beech 18 last year. Says it cruises at 150kn and 40gph. Not exactly efficient, but not as bad as I thought. Probably worth it to arrive in style with your whole family.
 
Guy here at cmi bought a beech 18 last year. Says it cruises at 150kn and 40gph. Not exactly efficient, but not as bad as I thought. Probably worth it to arrive in style with your whole family.
If he wanted to, he could push another 20 gph through for another 25 knots or so. ;)
 
Guy here at cmi bought a beech 18 last year. Says it cruises at 150kn and 40gph. Not exactly efficient, but not as bad as I thought. Probably worth it to arrive in style with your whole family.
It's not about efficiency....

It's about fun, comfort and capacity.

The Beech 18 is the most overall enjoyable airplane I've ever flown.

You can fully stand up inside the cabin.

Has a potty with full privacy in the back.

And it can carry as many people and luggage as a Honda Odyssey.
 
As long as it has NDB and no GPS. Then, and only then, can you call yourself a real pilot.


The AT-11 is my "lottery warbird". Basically a Beech 18 with a bomber nose. Would be super cool for giving people rides. :)
The museum here is finishing up the restoration of an AT-11, hopefully soon. Believe the plan is to sell rides when it comes online.

I'm looking forward to seeing how it compares to a stock Twin Beech. I've heard the bomber nose cruises about 15-20 kts slower.
 
I’ll buy you some gas for a ride next time I’m down to see my folks in Sun City
Unfortunately neither is mine, and neither is currently flying, so I can't promise you a ride in them. But definitely stop by if you are in Sun City and I'll take you for a quick tour in my Decathlon, no gas money needed.
 
Guy here at cmi bought a beech 18 last year. Says it cruises at 150kn and 40gph. Not exactly efficient, but not as bad as I thought. Probably worth it to arrive in style with your whole family.
... and some friends, and all your stuff.

I've seen some mid-size birds like that come to Oshkosh with party tents, tables, large-screen or projection TVs to watch movies with at night, etc... Literally bringing everything *including* the kitchen sink.

Definitely a stylish way to arrive anywhere, though. And if there's any more kids in your future, you'll "need" one. ;)
 
Guy here at cmi bought a beech 18 last year. Says it cruises at 150kn and 40gph. Not exactly efficient, but not as bad as I thought. Probably worth it to arrive in style with your whole family.
I've about run off the road twice now watching him flying around on the south side of Chambana.
 
Beech 18 on pax miles per gallon if it's full is actually not to bad. 8 pax times 150 kts = 30 pax miles per gallon.
 
Beech 18 on pax miles per gallon if it's full is actually not to bad. 8 pax times 150 kts = 30 pax miles per gallon.
True. If you limit it to just fuel cost (accepting that I'm going to pay hangar, insurance and maintenance whether I fly it or not), it's typically cheaper or at least break even per trip to fly my family of 4 almost anywhere east of the Mississippi in the Twin Beach than buying 4 airline tickets.

Also, because I live near a Class C where going almost anywhere requires a connection, I can beat the airlines time-wise anywhere east of the Mississippi.
 
True. If you limit it to just fuel cost (accepting that I'm going to pay hangar, insurance and maintenance whether I fly it or not), it's typically cheaper or at least break even per trip to fly my family of 4 almost anywhere east of the Mississippi in the Twin Beach than buying 4 airline tickets.

Also, because I live near a Class C where going almost anywhere requires a connection, I can beat the airlines time-wise anywhere east of the Mississippi.
I live 1 hour from a Class E and 2 hours from a Class D. I can only go to Minneapolis or Denver without a connection, or to Las Vegas or Phoenix-Mesa Gateway on Allegiant and wish I had a connection. Add an hour on the road to another Class D and I can also go to Dallas nonstop. Compared with the Twin Beech, I fly a faster plane (the 310 is good for about 175 knots the way I load and fly it) and can brag about covering much of the USA faster than the airlines. Hearing that your Twin Beech can beat the airlines on time for such a big territory despite living near a Class C warms the cockles of my heart.

My avatar is in memoriam of Hipmunk, the airline ticket search site that let you sort by "agony," which meant that a flight that cost $5 more but only had 1 connection that was exactly the right time of day and duration to enjoy lunch and a chapter of your book would get listed before an itinerary on Greyhound Air with 3 stops in separate banana republics alternating between 10-minute and 36-hour layovers and only middle seats available. I take my life philosophies from only the most esoteric places, like defunct websites. So I try to make my travel plans based on minimizing agony.

GA usually minimizes my travel agony. Or at least it spreads the agony out between trips while the airlines bunch it all up into one exhausting and stressful day of trying to get to the airport in time, listening to the lies the airline's customer service people tell about why I am going to get to my destination a day later than planned, trying not to say something mean to the guy who can't decide between the McThis or the McThat when I just want to eat my McMuffin at a table instead of on the moving walkway, and wishing that "flexible travel plans" meant something more than how I contort myself so as not to be enveloped by the coughing caricature of a human seated in, on, and around the next seat.
 
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It's not about efficiency....

It's about fun, comfort and capacity.

The Beech 18 is the most overall enjoyable airplane I've ever flown.

You can fully stand up inside the cabin.

Has a potty with full privacy in the back.

And it can carry as many people and luggage as a Honda Odyssey.
I'm sure it can carry more people and baggage than an Odyssey, at least without the minivan being over gross weight.
 
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I don't understand the inclusion of the "182RG" in the OP's list. That one seems to be a pretty good performer and certainly doesn't fit in the "complex trainer" category. I don't know that I'd ever seen a flight school with one on their line.
I worked at a school that had one but it was primarily a rental. The training use was primarily checkouts for people that wanted to go on trips.

The owner bought it because he was tired of having to explain to customers why they had to pay minimum daily blocks to take trips in the school planes. Even with the min daily rate he would often lose money over how much utilization the school planes missed on someone taking a trip. Having the 182RG gave our customers access to something they could use for overnight trips without impacting the school schedule.

It was a cool little plane. Loved flying it.
 
135Kts, that’s all? I routinely see 135 KTAS in my Tiger!

In the day the Grumman ads showed that the Tiger was faster than an Arrow or a Cardinal RG.

Funny. They didn't compare themselves to a Mooney. :D
 
In the day the Grumman ads showed that the Tiger was faster than an Arrow or a Cardinal RG.

Funny. They didn't compare themselves to a Mooney. :D
That’s because the Mooney can’t go 135Kts with the gear down to get an apples to apples comparison! ;)
 
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