Old AD 98-02-08

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Tom-D, Apr 14, 2018.

  1. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Why are you applying the "fixed pitch" text of the AD to determine the IO360A1A with constant speed doesn't need inspections but not the 320 other than 160 horse?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  2. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    If you want any more answers to why. then query the FAA, not me, I just read and comply.
     
  3. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that a 150 horse O-320-E2D must have the plug removed and inspection performed. There is no evidence to support your claim.

    The whole thing won't copy paste so I have snip it but here is the link

    http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...E7B86DE103CB30E78625684D006644B5?OpenDocument


    ...In addition, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has confirmed that four other failures in the United States and 10 in foreign countries were due to cracks initiating from corrosion pits in the crankshaft bore on certain Textron Lycoming 320 and 360 reciprocating engines with ratings of 160 horsepower or greater.


    ...These studies and data confirm the crankshaft fracture occurred at a stress concentration caused by a corrosion pit on the inside of the crankshaft. In addition, since the NPRM was issued, six additional crankshaft failures on 160 horsepower Textron Lycoming engines are being investigated. The FAA has, however, performed additional analysis to limit the population of engines impacted by this proposed AD and has deleted the five year limit on pitted crankshafts undergoing repetitive FPI inspections. These measures will decrease the cost of the AD to the public...

    ...One commenter states that the AD should take into consideration the operation and service history for each engine in specifying corrective action. The FAA partially concurs. The FAA has taken into consideration service history and has limited the applicability of this AD to engines with 160 hp or greater....


    ...The total number of engines impacted worldwide is 16,357 (11,000, 160 hp, 320 series; and 5,357, 360 Series). The FAA estimates that 60% of that number, 9,814 engines are installed on aircraft of U.S. registry, and are affected by this AD. The FAA estimates that it will take approximately 8 work hours per engine to accomplish...

    If that wasn't enough the actual text of the AD written in Title 14 Code of Federal Regulation Part 39.13 amendment 39-10291says

    upload_2018-4-17_8-6-57.png
     
  4. brien23

    brien23 Line Up and Wait

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  5. Salty

    Salty Pattern Altitude

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    One day I hope to actually learn something from one of Tom's educational threads. Looks like today is not that day.
     
    SkyDog58 and Grum.Man like this.
  6. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    How else are you going to inspect the internal bore of the crank?
    If you don't understand that the application list is part of the AD, there isn't much I can do for ya.
     
  7. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    You should have learned that this AD was interpreted wrong by a lot of the A&P mechanics, and there are a lot of PA-28s with the 0-320-E2D installed that are not in compliance.

    Why else would the FAA come out with a clarification on the problem, in Feb -2018 on an old AD dated 1998?
    Can you explain that ?
     
  8. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    You keep coming back to the very AD that tells us what engines are exempt.
    and the 150 horse engines are not listed as exempt.
     
  9. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Why would it need to say the 150 horse are exempt when it says 320 160 horse are affected?
     
  10. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    You and those like you who believe that idea is why they FAA came out with the application list..

    Granted,, very poor wording in the AD, You keep quoting the preamble to the AD, But the AD is the requirement, not the preamble, and it does not exempt the 150 horse.

    Lycoming and the FAA consider the cranks in both 320s and 360 the same part with the same problem. so the new Applications list adds them all with out a re-write of the AD.
     
  11. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Show me that thing referenced in post #2 on something that looks official and not something spewed out by a database search engine and I will believe you.

    I have worked in a data base entry position before, where the person is tasked to enter AD, SB, SL etc into a database making them easily searchable like Avantext or Tdata does, whatever they came up with does not superseded the AD text and their systems will bring up ADs that do not apply and it is the mechanic's and inspectors job to weed that crap out. There is no difference between that job and the guy that did it for the FAA's library.

    That thing in post #2 looks just like another line item tagged with those engines so it prints on a compliance list, not changing or amending the applicability of the AD, the way you are reading it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  12. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Read the link,, see where it came from?
     
  13. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Where can I find that in the federal register? SAIB? NPRM? You got nothing
     
  14. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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  15. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    If you want the whole email I will forward it to you
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  16. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

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    Case closed thanks bnt83
     
  17. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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  18. brien23

    brien23 Line Up and Wait

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    Will you post the whole email what you posted does not say much and who said it?
     
  19. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I'd like to see that too.
     
  20. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Do you understand what Tom has been arguing in this whole thread?

    Go to post #2 and read the info in that link, per Tom the information there trumps the AD's applicability section.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  21. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    You are unable to comprehend what the link in post #2 is. There is nothing to "throw out"
     
  22. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    IOWs you'd like to keep that application list?
     
  23. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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  24. brien23

    brien23 Line Up and Wait

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    So you are not going to post the whole email.
     
  25. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

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    As I have said befor the faa does not just add things to an ad. It issues a new ad.

    This is a clip from the faa ad manual

    Superseding AD Actions.

    Superseding AD actions might be issued as an NPRM, final rule, FRC, or emergency AD. We issue a supersedure when we need to correct an error that affects the substance of the AD or to expand the scope of the existing AD. Examples include adding a part number, correcting a part number (when that part number actually exists), mandating compliance with additional service information, reducing compliance times, expanding applicability, changing the methods of compliance, adding corrective actions, adding or changing inspection requirements, and adding mandatory terminating action.

    a. Identifying Supersedures. A superseding AD gets a new amendment number and a new AD number; the previous AD is deleted from 14 CFR part 39.

    The ad clearly states 160hp four times, if the faa wants to add 150 hp engines they must supersed the ad and issues it with a new number as per this manual. They continue just change the text of it.

    Bottom line, you are wrong tom.

    Bob
     
  26. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    They didn't add any engines, they simply clarified what engines the AD applied to.
    The AD still stands as read. no change, the AD already has the exemption list in it.
    Do you see any 150 horse power engines listed as exempt?
     
  27. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude

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    They don’t need to be listed as exempt. They were never included.
     
  28. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I don't believe that is the FAAs opinion.
    Specially when they came out with a clarification, and gave those models on the application list.
    Why would they do that, if they didn't want the 150s to be included.
     
  29. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude

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    If they wanted to change the body of the ad to include previously not included engines there would be a new ad that superseded the old ad. Just because the ad comes up as applicable doesn’t mean it is. The language in the ad determines its applicability. I didn’t find there to be anything vague about the ad. It states in plane English 160 hp or greater with a fixed pitch prop. Not sure what the big whoop is....
     
  30. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    THEY DID NOT CHANGE THE BODY OF THE AD.
    Good GOD man read the AD!

    Clarification is neither a change or superseding of the AD.
    The FAA issued a clarification in Feb -18 to bring attention to the fact that this AD was misinterpreted, and that the 150 horse power engine were included from the start.
     
  31. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

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    lets go through this again. that is not a clarification. show me a document not a search. all you have found is a page of the FAA search engine that allows that ad to come up if someone searches for it. AGAIN SHOW ME A DOCUMENT THAT SAYS CLARIFICATION ON IT. THE AD LISTS 4 TIMES 160 HP ENGINES/.
    im done, your to bull headed to accept that you are wrong.


    bob
     
  32. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    That may be your opinion, and you are welcome to it. But I'm betting the FAA would not do any thing on a 1998 AD unless they had something in mind.
    If you don't want to do the AD on 150 horse engines ,, don't, it is your ticket.
     
  33. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

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    It not option. an AD is a legal regulatory document. It cannot be changed without a new AD. Are you saying that this wording in the document does not apply?

    The FAA has taken into consideration service history and has limited the applicability of this AD to engines with 160 hp or greater.

    To change the applicability would require a new AD. I've quoted the section of the ad manual that states that.

    It's that simple.

    Again please produce this said action with somthing other than the results from f a search. Until you can produce said document your are talking crap.
     
  34. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    That is not in the AD. it is in the preamble, The Preamble is not regulatory.

    READ THE AD
     
  35. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Tell me why the FAA would bother to clarify a 20 year old AD if they didn't believe it was misunderstood.
     
  36. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

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    Still waiting for you to come up with a document, not just a search engine result. Show me a faa document.......
     
  37. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    If you don't believe what you've already read There isn't much I can do for ya.

    Plus You've yet to answer my question, what made the FAA come out with a clarification?
    My opinion.... there have been so many 150 horse models upgraded to 160 horses that were never inspected.
     
  38. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

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    I have it says

    Applicability: Textron Lycoming 320 series limited to 160 horsepower, and 360 series, four cylinder reciprocating engines with fixed pitch propellers

    Definition of limited
    1a : confined within limits : restricted

    Still waiting for a document that has gone through the regulatory process to change that applicability. Do you have one? Or are you still sticking with your search results as regulatory information?
     
  39. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

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    What I've read is a legal document (the AD) that states limited to 160Hp. You still have produced NO legal document, as required by law, that shows a change to that.

    As for 150s upgraded to 160 the require the inspection as per the documents provided by ram, who hold ps one of the stc.

    What made the faa come out with a clarification? Where the hell is this clarification you speak of, all you have is a search result. show us a document from the faa.

    As for you "opinion", are you saying the FAA decided that since upgraded engines were not inspected we will have all of them inspected? If so, as I have said before that is a change of appliciability, and requires a new ad. AS PER THE FAA AD HANDBOOK .

    By the way here is an example of how the faa "clarifies" information in an AD

    https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...craft-corporation-7-8-and-11-series-airplanes
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  40. hotprops

    hotprops Line Up and Wait

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    I would inspect any small bore lyc crank with the "freeze" plug under the prop if my ass was in the aircraft.. so easy to do .