Oil Change by A&P vs Owner

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Mooney Fan, Jan 28, 2020.

  1. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    Indian Mound, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mooney Fan
    My Lycoming 0320-E2A has 1775-SMOH in 1972. Burns 12 qts/hr, good compressions and doesn't make metal. I am fully capable to change the oil. But I'm wrapped around the axle by having my A&P do the oil change all the time in that I want his signature in my logs from a credibility perspective. My mechanic has been doing the changes for all my ~35 hour oil changes over the 225 tach hours I have put on the plane since purchase 4/2018. I also have Blackstone reports for each change which confirms no issues.

    Just how important was it to you when looking (pre-buy) over log books from planes you purchased? For me, when the log states, 'Filter cut open, and no metal found' I would rather see an A&P signature backing that up. Far more credible than me stating such. Especially for a high time engine

    Stick with A&P?

    Thanks
     
  2. Bacho

    Bacho Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    194
    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bacho
    If its burning 12qts an hour, I would just keep dumping it in and not bother with a change. ;)

    In all honesty I would not find a significant difference between an A&P doing that and the owner. In fact I would prefer to see the owner being hands-on and investigating things. A thorough owner is going to notice things that an A&P might not catch looking at it 3 or 4 times a year.
     
  3. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    3,463
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    FWIW: In my opinion, from a mx standpoint/pre-buy, it would be a non-issue who performs the oil change just so long as it's documented. On the "credibility" comment, I wouldn't give any less to an owner performing mx than a AP considering the owner as a lot more "credible" responsibilities for the aircraft than just the mx.
     
    Mooney Fan likes this.
  4. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    3,540
    Location:
    KLAF
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    455 Bravo Uniform
    I wouldn’t care, as long as the annuals had a filter check (IA/A&P signature).
     
    Huckster79 and Mooney Fan like this.
  5. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    12,386
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    Huh???
     
  6. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    34,098
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    For many years I have done more than that for oil changes, I do 50 hour inspections.
     
    Mooney Fan likes this.
  7. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    12,249
    Location:
    Southeast Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    This page intentionally left blank
    People are going to price a high time engine as a runout or near runout anyway, who's name is in the book at that point isn't all that important IMHO.
     
    Aaronk25, Huckster79, iflyvfr and 2 others like this.
  8. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    12,497
    Location:
    Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Right Seater
    How much oil does that o320 hold?
     
  9. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    Indian Mound, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mooney Fan
    Daaarrrrr. 1 qt 12/hrs
     
    Huckster79, Ravioli and Computerjim like this.
  10. smv

    smv Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    1,663
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    smv
    Had a '68 MG Midget like that. Added a quart every 1000 miles, changed the filter every 6 quarts. Never did an entire oil change on that vehicle.

    :cool:
     
    SoCal RV Flyer and Jim Carpenter like this.
  11. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2007
    Messages:
    10,543
    Location:
    Maryland
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Check_my_Six
    Why does it take you 50 hours?...to do an oil change.o_O


    FWIW....and educated buyer wouldn't care who did your oil changes. The stupid ones might care that an A&P performed the deed.
     
    Huckster79 and Mooney Fan like this.
  12. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 7, 2009
    Messages:
    2,174
    Location:
    El Paso, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    danhagan
    I couldn't give a"bleep" who does the oil change. Was the filter cut? Does the non-mechanic know if there's an oil screen and was that removed cleaned and checked as well. I can tell immediately by the safety wire in the engine compartment if Gomer Pyle has been working on the engine;)
     
    Huckster79, GMascelli and Mooney Fan like this.
  13. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,948
    Location:
    Hipsterdelphia PDX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mike Brannigan
    I think handwritten log entries are janky, be it from owner OR mechanic.

    Make yourself a small typed label, sign it with your pilot number, who would even notice the difference?

    You can give yourself a generic-sounding shop name as a header since it has no bearing on the log entry. Be "Hangar 28 Maintenance" or something nondescript, it will hypnotize readers into moving to the next entry.
     
    Mooney Fan likes this.
  14. NordicDave

    NordicDave Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,951
    Location:
    San Jose
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NordicDave
    I change my own oil with my A&P supervising the final steps. We cut the oil filter and inspect. I like having an A&P's observations and logbook entry. I always find something, usually small to fix; and he's there to fix and sign-off. On occasion he's found small issues with his level of experience, I would have missed. The peace of mind is worth it and one day when i sell the plane, the new buyer will see it was A&P serviced.

    My lower cowl requires 2 people for installation, and an added boost for A&P help.
     
    Mooney Fan likes this.
  15. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2007
    Messages:
    10,543
    Location:
    Maryland
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Check_my_Six
    I'd rather see the look on the owner's face after he's cut the filter and examined all the carbon and determined that none of it is magnetic.....and none of the metal has part numbers....and my hands are clean, warm, dry and in my pockets. ;)
     
  16. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    34,098
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    I don't care who does the oil change, as long it is done correctly.

    I've seen operators ignore an oil leak, and not correct it.

    complete the whole process.
     
  17. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,018
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    My first engine failure happened that way....the part numbers didn’t show up until the failure.

    As to the OP’s specific question, if I were a buyer looking at a maintenance log entry by the owner stating that the filter was cut open and no metal found, I’d ask about the process of determining no metal was found. I’ve seen a lot of people parrot what somebody else says with no clue what it really means.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
    Mooney Fan likes this.
  18. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2019
    Messages:
    425
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mr Madman
    I do all my own oil changes. The last plane I sold, as I got an offer, was nearing time to do an oil change. The guy was doing his own "pre-buy", and I told him I was changing the oil on Saturday, and he could do his pre-buy at the same time. I changed the oil and cut the filter in front of him, so he could see for himself.
     
    Computerjim and Mooney Fan like this.
  19. catmandu

    catmandu Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,404
    Location:
    Sierra Nevada
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Catmandu
    If I was your buyer, I'd be in the "Do them yourself, have the Blackstone reports available" camp.

    Naysayer buyer is gonna get wrapped around the 47 years SMOH issue before the oil change issue.
     
    N747JB and Mooney Fan like this.
  20. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    3,540
    Location:
    KLAF
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    455 Bravo Uniform
    My ‘58 Evinrude 10 hp outboard uses a 24:1 fuel:eek:il ratio. I laugh every time I put 6 gallons in the fuel tank as I dump an entire quart in with it. Good thing for the environment that I don’t use my little boat very often.

    Edit: not sure why the smiley got inserted above, but it’s funny so I left it (totally not on purpose).
     
  21. idahoflier

    idahoflier Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    990
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    idahoflier
    Go with whatever makes you most comfortable. I enjoy performing as much maintenance as I can , but I'm also not looking to maximize my resale value...
     
    Huckster79 and Mooney Fan like this.
  22. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    Indian Mound, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mooney Fan
    Thanks. I realize the issues relative to time since major. There are buyers for planes like mine. I just want to make it stand above the rest in same condition. That’s if I sell in the next 200 hours or so. I may just do an overhaul and keep her.
     
  23. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    9,795
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    murphey
    If I'm looking, I don't care who did the oil change, but I do care that there are oil changes on a regular, periodic basis as recommended by the engine manufacturer.
     
  24. swingwing

    swingwing Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    Reading, Pennsylvania
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Swingwing
    A owner that changes his own oil has at least some mechanical inclination. Less likely he is the ham fisted type that see nothing wrong with jamming a cold engine to full throttle or such. One of the sweetest running, best maintained airplanes I ever encountered was owned by a diesel mechanic that always looked like he just crawled out from under an old Mack
     
    Huckster79 likes this.
  25. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    7,062
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    Who cares? You don't want to deal with "that" guy anyway.
     
    Checkout_my_Six likes this.
  26. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    2,350
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Juliet Hotel
    If I'm buying a plane with a high time engine, I'm doing an overhaul on day one so I couldn't really care less who did the oil changes at that point.

    Engine time aside, I would put much more value on what else I find in the logs in terms of what was found and how it was addressed than who did the oil changes. A very solid argument could be made that a skilled and talented owner (whose butt is in the seat on every flight) is going to be be much more patient and attentive while the cowling is off than an A&P who is on the clock and is just trying to get the job done so other more profitable work can be rolled into the shop as quickly as possible. That's not to say that there aren't owners out there who should never ever put a wrench to anything nor is it to say that there aren't A&P's out there who treat every plane they touch as if it were an irreplaceable award winning antique that has been in their family for generations. Rather its just to say that a signature in a logbook on its own gives zero indication about the amount of talent and care that went into performing the oil change.
     
  27. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,310
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    If the owner couldn’t change the oil, I worry how he was able to manage the systems.
     
  28. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    12,497
    Location:
    Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Right Seater
    I CAN change the oil. I just prefer not to at this stage of life. I have better ways to spend my time.
     
    Ravioli likes this.
  29. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,310
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    For what lots of shops charge, a hour of my time isn’t worth that much yet
     
    murphey likes this.
  30. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    7,062
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    I did a ton of work on my plane myself this annual. It took me twice as long as it would have taken someone that does it every day. Even with that, and what I had to pay for a certified mechanic to supervise the work, I still calculate that I “paid” myself $62.50 an hour. I’ll do that all day long for a job where I control the hours, set the pace, and become more familiar with my aircraft.
    Now, if I had to drive an hour to get to my plane to tinker on it for a few hours, the math wouldn’t work out and I’d just pay someone else to do it.
     
    James331 likes this.
  31. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2007
    Messages:
    10,543
    Location:
    Maryland
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Check_my_Six
    yup....I knew you could dew it. o_O 83498162_1110009006009098_3814604933706022912_o.jpg
     
    SoCal RV Flyer, Huckster79 and Salty like this.
  32. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    7,062
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    All that and they still managed to leave the pointy ends sticking out.
     
  33. Aviator305

    Aviator305 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Messages:
    130
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Juan
    If a potential buyer devalues my plane on the basis of owner-performed oil changes, "See ya!"
     
  34. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2019
    Messages:
    425
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mr Madman
    That is a mess. But, it also shows the weakest point of a o-320 (circled in red). I don't think I've ever seen one that wasn't broke. this.jpg
     
  35. DFH65

    DFH65 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages:
    2,149
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DFH65
    Wouldn't make a bit of difference to me if you did it or an A&P. I wouldn't even consider it in the purchase process and certainly wouldn't pay a premium for it. I just want to know the oil was changed regularly.

    Personally I don't pay anyone to do anything I can do myself but I can also squeeze a dollar and make a buck fifty sometime a buck seventy five.
     
  36. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    2,350
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Juliet Hotel
    Something else to consider. I am not an A&P but I used to fly for a company that had its own MX shop. When I wasn't flying, I was wrenching in the shop under the supervision of the A&P's. If an oil change came in, I did it so the A&P's could spend time on more lucrative work. The A&P who signed the logs would walk over and inspect my safety wire on the filter, make sure I put the oil plug back in the right hole and make sure I put enough oil back in. Total time invested by the A&P signing the logs was typically about 90 seconds. Obviously this won't be the case at every shop but its definitely the case at some. A signature in a logbook on its own is not a guarantee that the work was performed by an actual A&P.

    As a buyer I would place more value on a consistent history of oil samples being sent for analysis than whether or not the person who dumped the fresh oil into the motor had an A&P cert in their wallet.
     
  37. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2013
    Messages:
    433
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doug Reid
    Owners are allowed to change oil. As long as the work and log entry is done correctly, I do not see a problem.
     
  38. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    7,062
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    If you have oil testing results, there's no reason to believe the entries are being faked. What could an owner possibly even do wrong that wouldn't be obvious anyway? I wouldn't waste any time at all on someone nit-picking on such absolute nonsense. My plane is not for you.
     
    Mooney Fan likes this.
  39. NordicDave

    NordicDave Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,951
    Location:
    San Jose
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NordicDave
    ^^^ Yes

    Buying a plane, seeing owner oil changes are fine as long as there is a pattern of quality maintenance. Seeing regular oil analysis, and consistent changes due to appropriate tach and calendar time are proof points of diligence. A series of sporadic owner oil changes with back to back no-issue annuals would be cause to deep deeper.
     
    Juliet Hotel likes this.
  40. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,310
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    It’s the plane version of one those paracord brackets, in the event of a emergency you have like a football field of extra saftey wire there lol