Oil analysis results

[Pedals2Paddles]

Where does the phosphorous come from and why is yours so low?

I am not saying it's a problem, but I'm asking for my on education.

John

I'm not sure what type of oil was put in at annual, and it's probably also related to only 10 hours on the oil.

From Travis at Blackstone:
As an aside, though, this sample doesn't look like Aeroshell 15W/50. That type of oil typically has a lot more phosphorus additive (around 1100 ppm or so, typically), and it often causes a harmless chemical reaction in Lycoming engines that produces high copper. The copper in this report was low, so we don't think Aeroshell 15W/50 was in use. It may have been Aeroshell W100 or Phillips 20W/50 instead. We don't consider that a problem, but just something to note, since you mentioned the oil type.

 

[Henning]

I'm not sure what type of oil was put in at annual, and it's probably also related to only 10 hours on the oil.

From Travis at Blackstone:
As an aside, though, this sample doesn't look like Aeroshell 15W/50. That type of oil typically has a lot more phosphorus additive (around 1100 ppm or so, typically), and it often causes a harmless chemical reaction in Lycoming engines that produces high copper. The copper in this report was low, so we don't think Aeroshell 15W/50 was in use. It may have been Aeroshell W100 or Phillips 20W/50 instead. We don't consider that a problem, but just something to note, since you mentioned the oil type.

That's why I was asking what oil you were using. Regardless, keep using the same oil for the first 50hrs, and don't use Aeroshell Semi Synthetic or Exxon Elite (the same formulation using the same junk synthetic base stock) going forward. If you want a multi vis, use the Phillips.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

here's an example of what Camguard did for my Lycoming 0-540 a few years ago.

Note the decrease in iron in the 03/2009 sample. This was the first sample containing CamGuard. Also, note that CamGuard contains extra Calcium, Phosphorus, and other stuff (see the lower portion of the Blackstone report).

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Don't be too shocked if there are chunks of hard black stuff in the finger screen. Make sure it is not ferrous (magnetic) and see if you can crush it with your fingers or with a stick. If your rings are not well seated you get blow by. Hopefully your rings will reseat and you won't see much of it, or if you do it will go away as the rings seat.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

That's why I was asking what oil you were using. Regardless, keep using the same oil for the first 50hrs, and don't use Aeroshell Semi Synthetic or Exxon Elite (the same formulation using the same junk synthetic base stock) going forward. If you want a multi vis, use the Phillips.

It's got Aeroshell 15W-50 now and it's what we've been advised to continue using. Why do you suggest the Phillips?

here's an example of what Camguard did for my Lycoming 0-540 a few years ago.

Wow. I've heard it does wonderous things, but that's a bigger difference than I would have expected. It did not get camguard at annual, and we forgot to buy it when we did the first oil change. We have it to put in when we change it again this weekend. It will be interesting to see what it does to the iron on the third analysis. Hopefully something like that!

Don't be too shocked if there are chunks of hard black stuff in the finger screen. Make sure it is not ferrous (magnetic) and see if you can crush it with your fingers or with a stick.

If it isn't ferrous, then what are those chunks?

 

[Geico266]

That's why I was asking what oil you were using. Regardless, keep using the same oil for the first 50hrs, and don't use Aeroshell Semi Synthetic or Exxon Elite (the same formulation using the same junk synthetic base stock) going forward. If you want a multi vis, use the Phillips.

Nothing wrong with semi-synthetics (or full synthetics) if you run mogas.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

If I could acquire high octane mogas for $2.50/gal, I would do things.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

If it isn't ferrous, then what are those chunks?

Carbon

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2010/May/1/Airframe-and-Powerplant-Engine-making-metal

The three most common contaminants are carbon, ferrous metals, and nonferrous metals. Carbon particles often look like metal but are easy to identify because carbon breaks apart under fingernail pressure and disintegrates when struck with a hammer. Metal will remain intact or change shape.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

here's a cross post from another thread....that belongs here too.

Oil analysis is roughly analagous to a blood test. It indicates things that you may want to look more deeply into, or monitor further.

bingo.....

I apologize for the thread drift. But, regarding oil analysis, I think it adds only confusion.

Stuart....oil analysis is but one of "many" tools that "can" indicate an impending failure. Those indicators are dependent on the physics of failure.

How is the part failing?
* Is it making metal or material? ....is it particulate fine or are they large chunks?
* Is the part experiencing fatigue? ....and forming cracks, increasing stress?
* Is the part wearing slowly?
* Is excessive heat involved?
* Is the part arcing?
* Is the part not sealing pressure (oil or pneumatic)?
* .....etc

Until one can determine how this part does not perform its intended function and how it fails.....one can not say oil analysis is useless.

I'd never expect oil analysis to "indicate" or warn on an impending electrical failure....unless there was some mechanism that indicates using that test.

For example, on my electrical system I have a gear driven coupler that drives the alternator. It isolates the alternator from the engine. If the coupler begins to slip it could make "material". If those particles are not metal, because some couplers are non-metalic and too large.....oil analysis wouldn't show a thing, but the oil filter and sump should be loaded with the red material.

If those parts are metal....oil analysis still might not indicate. Large particulate, particulate that are too big (shavings or chunks), will not be in suspension in the oil. Those particles will sink, not float in the oil and gather in the bottom of the sump and possibly gather in the filter.

However, if the parts produced by the coupler are fine metal or material, oil analysis will indicate an elevated particulate with the composition of the material. It's up to the one reviewing the analysis to determine where that material is used inside the engine....then investigate the source.

So....blanket statements about oil analysis are ignorant without the knowledge of the physics of failure.....and how those failures indicate.

Determining the health of an engine requires monitoring many parameters and not fixating on just one. Some are operational, real-time data gathering, others are latent inspections. Like checking sump screens, oil filters, and performing oil analysis....or better yet, performing an internal and external visual inspection using a low cost USB borescope camera.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

I'm not sure what type of oil was put in at annual, and it's probably also related to only 10 hours on the oil.

From Travis at Blackstone:
As an aside, though, this sample doesn't look like Aeroshell 15W/50. That type of oil typically has a lot more phosphorus additive (around 1100 ppm or so, typically), and it often causes a harmless chemical reaction in Lycoming engines that produces high copper. The copper in this report was low, so we don't think Aeroshell 15W/50 was in use. It may have been Aeroshell W100 or Phillips 20W/50 instead. We don't consider that a problem, but just something to note, since you mentioned the oil type.

I use Aeroshell 15W/50 and here's my recent Blackstone report with 18 hours on the oil.

here's an example of what Camguard did for my Lycoming 0-540 a few years ago.

WOW!

 

[Henning]

Nothing wrong with semi-synthetics (or full synthetics) if you run mogas.

True, actually, if I was running MoGas I would run Castrol from the auto parts store since it's made to handle the byproducts of MoGas. You need to have the right additives and oil for the fuel, not the engine, the engine just cares about it being there. I never understood why Castrol Aviation Oil never made it to the U.S. market. It's all over the rest of the world.

 

[Henning]

It's got Aeroshell 15W-50 now and it's what we've been advised to continue using. Why do you suggest the Phillips?


Wow. I've heard it does wonderous things, but that's a bigger difference than I would have expected. It did not get camguard at annual, and we forgot to buy it when we did the first oil change. We have it to put in when we change it again this weekend. It will be interesting to see what it does to the iron on the third analysis. Hopefully something like that!


If it isn't ferrous, then what are those chunks?

Because of a discussion I had with Ed Collins, a petroleum engineer that designed Cam Guard as an extension of designing "the best aviation oil possible" for Exxon. They decided not to do it and make an Aeroshell clone instead, so he went on independently and made Cam Guard as an additive package. Basically the synthetic component of any oil on the market (they all use the same base stock that was also Mobil AV1, google that for a good read.) does not handle the byproducts of combustion of 100LL well and sets up a corrosive environment in your crankcase. Ed's recommendation was to use Phillips if I wanted a multi weight, or use any of the single weights as they are all straight fossil oil.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Is lead in oil really a problem? I know it is BY FAR the biggest one in oil analysis. But does it really hurt anything? Or help?

 

[James331]

Oil analysis is only good for a trend from other tests, I wouldn't worry about it.

How was the filter cut?

How was the compression?

How does the plane fly?

 

[Henning]

Is lead in oil really a problem? I know it is BY FAR the biggest one in oil analysis. But does it really hurt anything? Or help?

Not in the oil, the problem with AV1 was the lead would come out of suspension and cling to the bottom of the pistons. Mobil bought a lot of Continental 520s one year, a lot, I know I swapped out several for factory remans on their dime. If the lead remains in the oil it adds to the lubricity. If you buy Hypoid Gear Oil for the differential in your car, the additive that makes (made? Haven't seen if they redid it, but it smells the same) it for "hypoid gear" duty is lead because hypoid gears wipe in their interaction and the lead is what allows that to happen without damaging the gear set.

The real problem with lead in the fuel is that it glues the carbon onto your engine parts exposed to combustion gas, this problem is multiplied by running ROP and is the primary cause of burned valves. I haven't seen burned valves on cars sin leaded gas was phased out. It also glues on the valve stem and causes sticky valves and guide wear.

 

[gitmo234]

Curious here... is the "here's what camguard did for me" and the elevated numbers a good thing or bad thing?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Curious here... is the "here's what camguard did for me" and the elevated numbers a good thing or bad thing?

what elevated numbers are you speaking of?....some of those elevated items are actually good for keeping things in check, chemically.

 

[timwinters]

what elevated numbers are you speaking of?....some of those elevated items are actually good for keeping things in check, chemically.

I think he was reading it backwards...which I did too at first glance. He didn't realize the latest analysis was on the left.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I think he was reading it backwards...which I did too at first glance. He didn't realize the latest analysis was on the left.

good point....check the sample date at the top for reference. The red circled iron levels were with no CamGuard.

The take away with this is that if you don't fly frequently, cause I don't, iron and other metals will be high from corrosion. CamGuard does a fine job reducing corrosion and results in lower wear metals. This aircraft was flown once a month....and sat thru the winter months.

 

[gitmo234]

I think he was reading it backwards...which I did too at first glance. He didn't realize the latest analysis was on the left.

Correct! Good catch.

I was scratching my head... "Is elevated iron good?"

 

[James331]

Swapped mine over to X/C and camguard on the first oil change, it's great for my mission, also great if you live in a area where the wx can ground non FIKI aircraft for months at a time.

It's got Aeroshell 15W-50 now and it's what we've been advised to continue using. Why do you suggest the Phillips?

Used to run 15w-50, now it's X/C.

The test results I've seen and PIREPS state that the 15 and the XC are very similar, with the X/C costing less and being more available at the diffrent airports, I switched from 15 to KC for cost and availabilities reasons.

I also like to change my oil at 30hrs, even though I can go to 50 with my filter, or if it looks dark at all, really it's the cheapest mx you do on a plane, and getting the cowl off and looking around every 30hrs isn't exactly a bad idea ether

 

[JohnAJohnson]

I'd always been told that your engine benefits from Cam Guard when using X/C and Aeroshell 15W-50 already contains a reasonable facsimile. Any truth to this?

 

[Henning]

I'd always been told that your engine benefits from Cam Guard when using X/C and Aeroshell 15W-50 already contains a reasonable facsimile. Any truth to this?

Zero truth. Aeroshell has the Lycoming additive that does little, and is hell on the starter drive of Continentals.