Oil analysis results

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Pedals2Paddles, Jan 6, 2015.

  1. Pedals2Paddles

    Pedals2Paddles Cleared for Takeoff

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    This is the first oil analysis I've had the pleasure of reading. Back story: This O320-E2D was sitting for about 7 years with only about 10hrs use per year. Some was in a hangar, some was outside. The aircraft has been brought back to life with an extensive annual. So now the engine is being watched like a hawk. Oil changes every 10-12 hours and sending it out for analysis, cutting the filter open to check it. SMOH is 1400.

    This oil analysis was after it's first 10hrs of use. There was no metal in the filter. All values appear normal except the iron. Not at all unexpected, and it's what will be monitored for a trend. I would have been more surprised if it came out totally clean actually.

    Any thoughts one what you guys see here? What is the difference between Unit/Location Average and Universal Average?

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    well....metals are high, but not unusual for what you describe.

    It's still early....come to us after the next 50-100 hrs....then we'll know.:yes:
     
  3. Jeff Oslick

    Jeff Oslick En-Route

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    Looks pretty good - be aware that the averages reported by Blackstone will be for engines running the oil 35 to 50 hrs. You'll need to weight your results against the number of hours you put on your oil.

    Chromed cylinders?
     
  4. Pedals2Paddles

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    Yes, cylinders were chromed at the last major, which explains the chrome #.

    Good to know that their averages are based on more normal # of hours on the oil, and not adjusted to reflect the number hours we actually have on this oil sample. But still trying to figure out the difference between unit/location average and universal average?
     
  5. catmandu

    catmandu Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    IMHO, pretty good given the history. Trend is your friend, spikes are bad. Listen a little to Blackstone, listen a little to your mechanic, listen a little to the internet, make the best decision you can.
     
  6. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    so....did you cut the filter?....and what was in there?

    next up....cam and tappets? What do they look like?
     
  7. Pedals2Paddles

    Pedals2Paddles Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yep. Described above... No metal in the filter, it was very clean. Didn't pull cylinders to physically examine the cam and tappets.
     
  8. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    What were the comments they made? I wouldn't sweat over one report. If the next one looks funky, might start looking for a cause. Are you using Camguard? Might start if not.

    And 10 hours seems rather short for a change. If it's being used so little, you might consider the Aeroshell oil designed for storage.

    The iron is more than likely from surface rust on the cylinders. Run the engine more and I think your numbers will drop quite a bit.
     
  9. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    chrome doesn't rust.....so, that would be from rings or something else. :yes:
     
  10. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route Gone West

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    HOw does it compare with the previous one? BTW, if you can use Mogas, your lead will go down.
     
  11. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Looks like the rings are reseating and polishing the cylinder walls. Not unexpected as you say. One analysis tells you almost nothing, keep us apprised of the next 5 results, then we'll have something to discuss. The chromium is a bit higher than I'd like seeing.
     
  12. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    At this point I would stick with 100LL for the lubrication.
     
  13. Pedals2Paddles

    Pedals2Paddles Cleared for Takeoff

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    There was no previous one to compare to. This is the first oil change since we acquired the plane 10 hours ago. And that 10 hours was over the course of about 1.5 weeks. We're using it a lot. It was suggested we change and test the oil every 10 hours for the first few changes since it was sitting so long. So this 10 oil change was kind of flushing the built up crap out it I guess.
     
  14. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Yep, and likely 2 more will as well. When we see what the trends are doing at 50 hours we have enough data to start making educated comments, need at least one more to issue any immediate and dire warnings. A single data point in this range says nothing particularly useful.
     
  15. Pedals2Paddles

    Pedals2Paddles Cleared for Takeoff

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    Can anyone explain the Unit/Location Average and Universal Average constitutes?
     
  16. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Location averages is what you engine type and area averages, Universal Averages are the aircraft averages the lab sees I'm guessing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  17. Jeff Oslick

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    That question is best answered by Blackstone, as I think it varies a bit between engine models what is included. They are great about answering questions.

    Jeff
     
  18. Pedals2Paddles

    Pedals2Paddles Cleared for Takeoff

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    I just emailed him for a more detailed explanation. But I think that is the gist of it.
     
  19. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    who is your mechanic? :D
     
  20. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Are you using straight, non AD, "mineral oil?"
     
  21. Geico266

    Geico266 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Results are excellent. I would extend oil changes to 25 hours and do another oil analysis.

    IMHO the engine is fine. Fly the crap out of it.
     
  22. Pedals2Paddles

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    You know those numbers are from 10hrs, not 40, right?
     
  23. Geico266

    Geico266 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yep. Extend the hours to 25 and test again. The numbers will be fine IMHO. You would know by now if there was corrosion on the cam. Iron would be outside of norm even after 10 hours.

    Use this as the base line and extend oil changes to 25 hours. Nothing is going to help or hurt the engine at this point in time, unless you want to over haul it right now.

    If you don't trust my opinion ( shame on you! :rofl:) call Blackstone. I have many times. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  24. Pedals2Paddles

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    But if the averages are all based on a typical 40hr oil change, and our numbers are based on 10hrs, wouldn't our number multiplied by 4 put it way over the average??

    Not that it is necessarily linear.
     
  25. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Do 50 hrs at the 10 hr interval using the same oil now that you started at 10 hr. Establish a base line and keep a good flush going and we'll know where your engine stands. Then you can start going to 50 hr intervals using Cam Guard, then establish a new trend line using the new collection/change/time parameters.
     
  26. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

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    For my Blackstone reports, I was pretty sure that the location/unit was just my plane, averaged over its history at Blackstone. And Universal was for other planes with the same engine type. That was the impression I got, after about 10 reports.

    But your report makes me doubt that, because you have only one report from Blackstone, so I would have expected your unit/location to be equal to your current report - but it is not. So now I just do not know.

    By the way, if you're not already doing it, be sure to explain your whole situation (plane was inactive for years, no metal in filter, etc) to Blackstone in your form -- they are really really good at responding to your particular case when they send your report. An absolutely terrific service.
     
  27. charlie

    charlie Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Don't forget to pull the finger screen. That's where the slivers of cam will show up. Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines
     
  28. Pedals2Paddles

    Pedals2Paddles Cleared for Takeoff

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    We forgot that. Although at annual it was clean. We're doing another oil change on Saturday so we'll check the screen then too. Thanks.


    << Sent from my mobile device at 0agl >>
     
  29. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    I called Blackstone recently and they gave me an explanation of the numbers. I also called Penn Yan and we talked about the report with their engine builder as well. Don't hesitate to call Blackstone. They will answer and be helpful.
     
  30. Pedals2Paddles

    Pedals2Paddles Cleared for Takeoff

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    I got a detailed explanation this morning. Those guys are great. Unit/Location Average is for samples coming from us with this engine type. In this case, "us" is the FBO at our field. So it is all the O320 oil samples sent from Landmark at FDK. There is only one other, so that average is actually kinda useless. The universal average is what we need to compare to.
     
  31. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Landmark?....be forewarned.

    They do OK work....but, you'll need to start with a full book of checks, cause they ain't cheap.:yikes::hairraise::yikes:
     
  32. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Oil analysis is a trend monitor. You need to establish base numbers before you can interpret any information. As for the cam, if you're concerned about corrosion pull a cylinder and put eyes on it. Not a big deal.
     
  33. Pedals2Paddles

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    Landmark isn't doing the oil change. We do it ourselves. We got the sample kit from Landmark, and they sent it in for us. So Blackstone has it logged as coming from Landmark at FDK.

    I'm thinking like others have said, it will take a few oil changes to establish a baseline since it was sitting for so long.
     
  34. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Just a lil tid bit on sampling....and this is a key IMHO.

    Be sure and do what ever it is the same each time you sample. Good folks do it differently....but I like to sample with the oil hot and take the sample from the "middle" of the oil drain. Let half drain into a bucket.....then fill your container from the drain port.....and continue draining remaining oil. If you sample too early you could get a false representation of what's in the bottom of the pan, ie sludge and crap.....not sure what happens if you wait till the tail end of the drain, but the most important aspect is to have some sense of repeatability for comparison.
     
  35. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Your analysis will vary if your flying frequency varies. If your oil gets changed because of hours used versus calendar time you can expect different values. I've never subscribed to oil analysis myself. I'm the only pilot in my plane and I'm very aware of operational trends. Oil trends don't interest me. But that's just me. The only interesting info I've seen from other guys' analysis has been the increase in silica when they've tried K&N filters.
     
  36. Pedals2Paddles

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    Thanks. That is exactly what we did.
     
  37. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    The key advantage I have seen working with oil analysis is the ability it has given us to do pre failure repairs and minimize down time and loss of revenue by having a planned repair instead of emergency repair. The repairs themselves also end up typically at a lower cost as well.

    At one tug company it also was used to eliminate oil changes. We just changed filters and replenish oil and additive packages as determined by analysis. In engines that hold a couple hundred gallons of oil and run 24-7-365, this in itself is a major cost savings.
     
  38. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

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    Good to know, Pedals. Sounds like picking up my oil sample and mailing it myself is a good thing to do, so that the unit/location column of the report is more meaningful.
     
  39. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Where does the phosphorous come from and why is yours so low?

    I am not saying it's a problem, but I'm asking for my on education.

    John
     
  40. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's an additive a particular brand includes with their base stock. Other brands have zero phosphorous. I wouldn't be overly concerned with that. :no: