Oil Analysis Question

Bman.

Bman.

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Bman.
I am a new owner to a 1979 PA-282-181 (Archer II). The plane has previously had oil changes done by the local FBO. They do a great job. As part of my "Get to know you better" and to spend more time at the airport anyway - I am taking the oil changing duties over. I figure it will save a few bucks and get me more familiar with the plane in general.

When it comes to oil analysis, who do you recommend to use? Which kit do I use and who do I send the oil off to? Seems like something I should keep doing as a general rule. Never having done an aircraft engine oil change, I am lost on this aspect. AOPA and general reading have helped me out with the rest of the oil change.

Thanks for the info-
Benjamin
 
New owner myself, I ordered them from aircraft spruce. I plan to just send them per there instructions. Just remember to take sample mid drain.
 
They are much the same, pick one and stick with it so you have a history. I use AvLAb. A friend knows the founder and vouched for him. I understand their reports and so does my mechanic.
 
I've never subscribed to oil analysis. Fly as often as you can and change the oil at 25 hours or 3-4 months depending on climate. Inspect the filter or screen for chunkage. That's worked for airplane owners for 75 years.
 
Jeff, honest question. In your 12 years of analysis what have you done differently with respect to engine operation and maintenance than if you didn't use analysis? I'm open to changing my mind.
 
He's a sample of one, which is not indicative of the value of tracking presence of things like lead, aluminum, and iron. Especially if you take the data and graph it on a per-hours-usage basis. What would YOU do if you had a 1000-hour engine, well short of scheduled overhaul, but over the course of a few oil changes, you saw an ever-steepening increase in lead ppm per 10 hours of use? Would you keep flying it because hey, the book only calls for a change every 50 hours and a rebuild every 2000 hours? Me, I'd be yanking that sucker for a rebuild before I had to practice an engine-out scenario for real.
 
I know when I was in the Navy many years ago, we did oil analysis to track aircraft engine trends and to know how the engine was doing between rebuilds. We changed a few jet engines early due to how the trends were going. Like MFE stated it is that or deal with an engine out, and in the Navy that meant over water and in the case of the A-6E Intruder normally heavy with ordnance or playing roll of fuel tanker.
 
If it had excessive lead I'd expect to find low compressions. My decision would be based on compression and would likely be corrected before oil analysis levels got excessive. But that's scare tactics. I'm looking for a pirep from Jeff because he seems like a good guy to ask.
 
MFE said:
He's a sample of one, which is not indicative of the value of tracking presence of things like lead, aluminum, and iron. Especially if you take the data and graph it on a per-hours-usage basis. What would YOU do if you had a 1000-hour engine, well short of scheduled overhaul, but over the course of a few oil changes, you saw an ever-steepening increase in lead ppm per 10 hours of use? Would you keep flying it because hey, the book only calls for a change every 50 hours and a rebuild every 2000 hours? Me, I'd be yanking that sucker for a rebuild before I had to practice an engine-out scenario for real.
Click to expand...
Who's "He"?

I've used Blackstone for a few years now: am impressed by their customer service - almost as though someone is communicating with you one-to-one on an ongoing basis. I had related to them once that I transiently had seen a marginally high CHT and they commented on that significance in subsequent reports twice. Once, because of the timing of my Annual the time between oil changes was short and they commented on that as well. Clearly there is a mentating human input on reports.

I'm just now losing my infatuation with doing my own oil changes - the local A&P/IA had commented to a third party that he never got any service requests from me until something went awry. Good to keep the local mechanic happy and in your queue. - don't mind letting him get all messy too. Oil and filter changes are generally messy affairs. It is a good way to get intimate with your airplane tho. Encourage it - 'til it gets to be a drudge.
 
Stewartb said:
I've never subscribed to oil analysis. Fly as often as you can and change the oil at 25 hours or 3-4 months depending on climate. Inspect the filter or screen for chunkage. That's worked for airplane owners for 75 years.
Click to expand...

Aaaauugh! Blasphemer! (just kidding):D

I was going to send oil out for analysis when I became a new owner, until two guys I know that did it religiously sheepishly said the analysis didn't do squat predicting their engine loss in flight. Doing the items you suggest has worked well for many pilots and I operate the same ...
 
Ok - another question. Who actually (I am sure some do... some don't).

1) Tightens the filer using a torque wrench? I have read several threads on cars and more people are like - "meh, hand-snug-enough"
2) Uses Dow DC4 compound on the new filter seal versus a wipe of oil?
 
I'm in the process of switching from AvLab to Blackstone. I'm just getting ready to send the last AvLab kit I have. That's what I've been using with my Tango. I've done one sample with Blackstone on my T-Craft, and I'm getting ready to send the next one out this week. (Did both oil changes at the same time.)

The biggest reason I'm changing is that one of the oil samples I sent to AvLab a few years ago got lost for a while. Since AvLab is paid in advance, I would have been out for that money. With Blackstone, if the sample gets lost, I'm out for just the postage. YMMV

I will say that the first Blackstone report I got for my T-Craft seemed more of a conversation, as opposed to AvLab where it's simply "these are the results" and nothing else is really said.
 
Bman. said:
Ok - another question. Who actually (I am sure some do... some don't).

1) Tightens the filer using a torque wrench? I have read several threads on cars and more people are like - "meh, hand-snug-enough"
2) Uses Dow DC4 compound on the new filter seal versus a wipe of oil?
Click to expand...

1. Hand tighten, and then another 1/4 turn. Or until it feels right.
2. I dip a finger in the old oil and wipe it on the seal.
 
Bman. said:
Ok - another question. Who actually (I am sure some do... some don't).

1) Tightens the filer using a torque wrench? I have read several threads on cars and more people are like - "meh, hand-snug-enough"
2) Uses Dow DC4 compound on the new filter seal versus a wipe of oil?
Click to expand...
The Dow stuff (or equivalent) works much better than oil.
Yes, I torqued it the first few changes to get the feel.

Aircraft oil filters are not the same as auto oil filters. The shells are heavier gauge material.
 
Usually. Torque the filter,then safety wire. Use finger dipped in oil for seal. You might want to order tool for filter disassembly to check for metal pieces,when you order the analysis kits.
 
Oil analysis is fine....but don't expect it to be that end-all-be-all alarm before a failure occurs. It indicates where fine wear particles are created. Fine as in PPM, small particles. It will indicate over "time" a trend of "fine" particle wear. Most failure modes do not create fine particles before they stop performing their intended function. They make large to medium sized chunks/particles.

I use Blackstone....but if you really want a handle of what's happening, cut open the filters and "see" what's in there. The larger to medium particles will accumulate in the filter before it circulates in the engine.

The next thing you can do to understand your engine....purchase a USB dental camera, one that will fit inside the spark plug opening (10mm hole). Every time you clean the plugs look in there. Learn what exhaust valves should look like....learn what the cylinder walls should look like....learn what the piston should look like. That $50 investment will tell you more than anything else....certainly more than any oil analysis or compression check.
 
+1 for blackstone. I've been using them for nearly eight years and 500 hours. Their analysis has been really helpful. Nothing is 100% but it is just another tool in engine management.
 
Stewartb said:
I've never subscribed to oil analysis. Fly as often as you can and change the oil at 25 hours or 3-4 months depending on climate. Inspect the filter or screen for chunkage. That's worked for airplane owners for 75 years.
Click to expand...


That.

And know where your engine normally runs, in the green isn't good enough
 
I used oil analysis.
It predicted problems before the metal showed up in the filter, by almost a year.
The other time, oil analysis did nothing.
I will probably continue doing it when i own a plane again.

Tim
 
But the metal in the filter warranted the action, right? So what did analysis do to prevent anything?
 
Stewartb said:
Jeff, honest question. In your 12 years of analysis what have you done differently with respect to engine operation and maintenance than if you didn't use analysis? I'm open to changing my mind.
Click to expand...

There have been a few times when the analysis has been useful and/or comforting. The first was when we ran our old engine to 170 hours past TBO (after running oil analysis for about 500 hours before TBO as well). We were seeing gradually increasing wear metals, increasing lead (blow-by), but it was all within reason and we had a good year to plan for "retirement" of the old engine. The increasing wear was also seen in somewhat more metal in the filter paper.

The biggest "assist" oil analysis gave us was about 3 years ago when we saw a rather sudden 4x increase in several metals, and also a marked increase in silicon. There was nothing obvious going on with the cylinders (borescope, etc). We had concerns, due to the silicon, that somehow a slug of abrasive silt got into the system somehow, and wasn't getting caught by the filter for some reason. We did a full engine oil flush, cleaning out pan, cooler and pulling the starter to check the starter adapter to confirm there was no problem there. Silicon was still slightly elevated on the next oil change, but the metals were back to normal, and since then all has been good. We suspect the seal on the airbox to carb had a problem. An over reaction that just a simple oil change would have addressed? Maybe, but that engine is the heart of our trusted steed, and we will do what it takes to not have a reason to ever question if we have done all we could to keep it in great condition.

Jeff
 
tspear said:
I used oil analysis.
It predicted problems before the metal showed up in the filter, by almost a year.
The other time, oil analysis did nothing.
I will probably continue doing it when i own a plane again.

Tim
Click to expand...

This is the problem. I have never met anyone who actually heeded the oil analysis warnings and disassembled an engine to see what was going on. Everyone I know simply continued to motor on until bigger problems occurred, such as metal in the oil filter, or in other cases there was no warning that was given by the oil analysis and the engine still failed.

I've come to believe that oil analysis simply causes concern and angst. The reports are interesting to look at, particularly if you're happy with how your engine is performing, but I don't feel they return enough value to make it worth the money spent.
 
mondtster said:
I have never met anyone who actually heeded the oil analysis warnings and disassembled an engine to see what was going on.
Click to expand...

Hi, you've now met me on the internet, so now you know someone who has disassembled (somewhat) an engine based on oil analysis.

Would I crack the case based on oil analysis alone? No, not unless it was something really strange and repeatable going on that wasn't showing up in the filter.
 
Bman. said:
I am a new owner to a 1979 PA-282-181 (Archer II). The plane has previously had oil changes done by the local FBO. They do a great job. As part of my "Get to know you better" and to spend more time at the airport anyway - I am taking the oil changing duties over. I figure it will save a few bucks and get me more familiar with the plane in general.

When it comes to oil analysis, who do you recommend to use? Which kit do I use and who do I send the oil off to? Seems like something I should keep doing as a general rule. Never having done an aircraft engine oil change, I am lost on this aspect. AOPA and general reading have helped me out with the rest of the oil change.

Thanks for the info-
Benjamin
Click to expand...
Blackstone labs. Welcome to the club from another archer II owner

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
wrbix said:
Who's "He"?

I've used Blackstone for a few years now: am impressed by their customer service - almost as though someone is communicating with you one-to-one on an ongoing basis. I had related to them once that I transiently had seen a marginally high CHT and they commented on that significance in subsequent reports twice. Once, because of the timing of my Annual the time between oil changes was short and they commented on that as well. Clearly there is a mentating human input on reports.

I'm just now losing my infatuation with doing my own oil changes - the local A&P/IA had commented to a third party that he never got any service requests from me until something went awry. Good to keep the local mechanic happy and in your queue. - don't mind letting him get all messy too. Oil and filter changes are generally messy affairs. It is a good way to get intimate with your airplane tho. Encourage it - 'til it gets to be a drudge.
Click to expand...
I change the oil once a year. The shop does it once a year at the annual. A close friend who's an A&P does the other 2 oil changes as part of the need to keep his A&P active. I buy lunch. He also does a few things that the shop hates doing, such as crawling under the panel to replace the transistors on the panel light control.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Hi, you've now met me on the internet, so now you know someone who has disassembled (somewhat) an engine based on oil analysis.

Would I crack the case based on oil analysis alone? No, not unless it was something really strange and repeatable going on that wasn't showing up in the filter.
Click to expand...

I think we have different definitions of the term "disassembling an engine." That's fine, and I don't think there is anyone who wouldnt do light investigation. I'm talking about going deeper.
 
Bman. said:
Ok - another question. Who actually (I am sure some do... some don't).

1) Tightens the filer using a torque wrench? I have read several threads on cars and more people are like - "meh, hand-snug-enough"
2) Uses Dow DC4 compound on the new filter seal versus a wipe of oil?
Click to expand...
Me. Of course the tube of Dow has lasted almost 20 yrs, even with 3 other people borrowing it. As software geek, I believe current and accurate documentation.
 
I've also been using Blackstone for a number of years. Most of the results have been perfectly normal, this year they noticed an anomaly which turned out to be dirt introduced through a number of small induction leaks. I was impressed with the way they answered follow-up questions. It's a pretty small amount of money to spend in the overall oil change, and worth if from my perspective.
 
Brad Z said:
+1 for blackstone. I've been using them for nearly eight years and 500 hours. Their analysis has been really helpful. Nothing is 100% but it is just another tool in engine management.
Click to expand...
Me too.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
The next thing you can do to understand your engine....purchase a USB dental camera, one that will fit inside the spark plug opening (10mm hole). Every time you clean the plugs look in there. Learn what exhaust valves should look like....learn what the cylinder walls should look like....learn what the piston should look like. That $50 investment will tell you more than anything else....certainly more than any oil analysis or compression check.
Click to expand...

Have you found a dental cam that can look to the side at the cyl walls and back up at the valves? I know there are articulating bore scopes, but have not seen the same thing in a dental cam with a quick web search.
 
Bman. said:
Ok - another question. Who actually (I am sure some do... some don't).

1) Tightens the filer using a torque wrench? I have read several threads on cars and more people are like - "meh, hand-snug-enough"
2) Uses Dow DC4 compound on the new filter seal versus a wipe of oil?
Click to expand...

I use a torque wrench calibrated for the oil filter.
I don't use the Dow product, just a liberal coating of oil on the gasket.
Run up, check for leaks, then safety wire it.

Cut open the filter and check the element.
 
Stewartb said:
I've never subscribed to oil analysis. Fly as often as you can and change the oil at 25 hours or 3-4 months depending on climate. Inspect the filter or screen for chunkage. That's worked for airplane owners for 75 years.
Click to expand...

I'm in the same camp as you. Unless I can convince myself I might take some other action or decision I don't see what I would do with the information other than file it.

Others obviously place value on the info, and that's great.
 
@Stewartb @mondtster

I do not know which metal, but the analysis pointed to an issue with a piston/cylinder and the camshaft. So we pulled borescope until we found the problem cylinder, took a few tries, but scoring showed on the walls before metal was in the filter. Had that cylinder pulled and replaced.
For the camshaft, just had to schedule it. Tiny flects displayed in the filter on the last oil change before I pulled the motor.

Tim
 
I wonder how many of the new AD Lycoming owners have grounded ahead of the MSB because of oil analysis? My guess is zero. Even with lots of failures documented. I remain slightly curious about analysis but far from convinced.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
this one can.... http://www.ebay.com/itm/AbleScope-U...042966?hash=item465fbeaf56:g:I8wAAOSwsW9Yyj4k

but if you search ebay there are tons of them that can do the job for $50.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's the exact one I am looking at getting, but would love to save $150! I like it cuz you can stick it in the hole and look in all directions. I'll keep searching the dental cams, but so far they all seem like they can only view in one direction. I'd be happy if I could even tape a floppy bore scope to a coat hangar bent 90deg or taped upside down.
 
Anymouse said:
1. Hand tighten, and then another 1/4 turn. Or until it feels right.
2. I dip a finger in the old oil and wipe it on the seal.
Click to expand...

The torque spec for oil filters is there for a reason, and I do, in fact, use a torque wrench when installing one. I've seen filters torqued far beyond specs that literally had to be destroyed to remove them thanks to someone illiterate enough to not understand the service manual. Having to chisel off the base of the filter after some 'Gorilla' over-tightened it to his preferences is not a task I wish to deal with.
 
Norman said:
The torque spec for oil filters is there for a reason, and I do, in fact, use a torque wrench when installing one. I've seen filters torqued far beyond specs that literally had to be destroyed to remove them thanks to someone illiterate enough to not understand the service manual. Having to chisel off the base of the filter after some 'Gorilla' over-tightened it to his preferences is not a task I wish to deal with.
Click to expand...

Fortunately, I'm not a gorilla.
 
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