Oil Analysis IO360B1E

Tan

Tan

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TheCapTan
Just got my second oil analysis from Blackstone. They stated Chrome was pretty high at 10 and universal averages are 4. My first sample came in at 6.Aluminum, Iron, Copper and Tin were lower than averages. They mentioned possible ring wear. Is this cause for immediate concern? This was after 25 hours with no make up oil added or needed.
 
IMO it means nothing until it’s two in a row. Then it still might not mean much.
 
Salty said:
IMO it means nothing until it’s two in a row. Then it still might not mean much.
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I found the first one I did when I got it but it wasn’t blackstone labs but chrome was at a 9. So it went down to 6 then back up to 10. Temps are good except in the climb with cylinder 2 reaching 400 but cruise is around 360. Oil consumption is at around 1 quart every 20 hours.
 
I wouldn’t worry, just fly it.
 
Oil temps do get higher in a climb, you can enrichen mixture or level off and build up some airspeed and do your climbs in steps.
 
First question is, do you have chrome cylinders? If you do, the universal average doesn't mean anything, and Blackstone can check it against other chrome cylinder averages (yes, they will do this, their customer service is excellent).
 
Blackstone do ask a few questions to go with the oil sample, such as cylinder type. I am going to a meeting next month where a person form Blackstone is going to put on a seminar. shoot me any questions I should ask.
 
How long does Blackstone usually take to give you a report after you send them a sample? I've been waiting 2 months now for a report from AvLabs.
 
Narwhal said:
How long does Blackstone usually take to give you a report after you send them a sample? I've been waiting 2 months now for a report from AvLabs.
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Blackstone took about 10 days recently to get me a e mail with the report.
I used the tvek envelope to mail it in for the first time.
Last year it was taking about 3 weeks or more but I am pretty sure it is the post office holding it up something to do with how Blackstone had the labels made out.

2-3 years ago it was only 7-10 days before the post office changed.
 
Borescope, compression test, cut oil filter. Oil analysis adds nothing but confusion, as you see here.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Borescope, compression test, cut oil filter. Oil analysis adds nothing but confusion, as you see here.
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It isn't confusion, but getting useful information depends on trend analysis. It is a tool to assist in decision making, which can be very helpful when the decision can involve thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars and weeks/months of down time.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
It isn't confusion, but getting useful information depends on trend analysis. It is a tool to assist in decision making, which can be very helpful when the decision can involve thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars and weeks/months of down time.
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Meh. What would you do if every oil analysis looked like this, but everything else was always perfect? What if the level of, say, chromium was way high, then normal, then kinda high, then a little higher, a little higher still, then normal? That's how it actually works. I've never seen anyone do anything worthwhile based on oil analysis alone, in the face of normal oil usage, borescope, compression, and filter, no matter what the trends were. As such, it adds nothing.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Meh. What would you do if every oil analysis looked like this, but everything else was always perfect? What if the level of, say, chromium was way high, then normal, then kinda high, then a little higher, a little higher still, then normal? That's how it actually works. I've never seen anyone do anything worthwhile based on oil analysis alone, in the face of normal oil usage, borescope, compression, and filter, no matter what the trends were. As such, it adds nothing.
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Your personal experience is different than mine. That's fine. As I said, it's a tool. I'm not selling it as a panacea. It works for me and for others I know, but I also know many who do just fine without it, too.

Oil analysis is easy, and not particularly expensive. I can say from experience (17 years of oil analysis on our plane) that we have at times seen something suspect and acted on that by doing a compression check, sometimes with a borescope, if warranted. I have seen metals in the analysis indicating a problem developing without significant metal in the filter. We also used trend analysis to help us judge when we wanted to do an overhaul on a 20+ year old engine that was 250 hours past TBO.
 
It is just another tool for me. It helps to look for trends like said already.
I have had one for every oil change since my engine was new, all kept in the engine log book. The next owner of my plane will like that if I don't use up the motor before I sell the plane.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
As such, it adds nothing.
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A friend that runs an experimental engine like mine found out through oil analysis that he had a failing cam gear. He would not have known otherwise. It likely saved his backside and his plane as a disassembly of the engine found the gear very near to failure.

I use various things to keep a close check on the health of the engine (hot idle oil pressure is a good check before shut down) and oil analysis is one of those tools. You don't have to like it or use it but it is a very good tool for preventative maintenance.

YMMV ... but I doubt it.
 
Tan said:
Is this cause for immediate concern?
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To add from a maintenance perspective, these reports are for only tracking trends in engine ops and not necessarily as diagnostic results. If that makes sense. And the trend should be over a length of time to be useful.

Having reviewed 100s of reports over the years they definitely have a place in the preventative side of monitoring you aircraft. While there is more benefit on turbine side, the recip side benefits as well provided the owner or mechanic reviewing them understands what the data is showing. Blackstone and others merely add text to explain the numbers but those comments should not directly predicate any potential maintenance.
 
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Narwhal said:
How long does Blackstone usually take to give you a report after you send them a sample? I've been waiting 2 months now for a report from AvLabs.
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I sent in a sample to AvLabs about 6 months ago and have heard nothing. I tried to call them and sent emails with no luck. My old results are still on their website but I expect it to eventually 404...
 
Often overlooked is how the sample was obtained.

I prefer “ top down” as you can do immediately after shut dow via plastic tubing.

On jet fighters this was done with the engine running.
 
Daleandee said:
A friend that runs an experimental engine like mine found out through oil analysis that he had a failing cam gear. He would not have known otherwise. It likely saved his backside and his plane as a disassembly of the engine found the gear very near to failure.
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Did he do anything else before cracking the case? Was his oil consumption, borescope, cut filter, and general performance totally normal?
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Did he do anything else before cracking the case? Was his oil consumption, borescope, cut filter, and general performance totally normal?
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Wasn't my monkey or circus. My point is that oil analysis is a valuable tool. I don't believe there is an argument that can be made against that fact. Are you a mechanic?
 
No, I’m not a mechanic. I’m also not a luthier, but I’m a pretty good guitarist.

My point is that oil analysis adds nothing because no one would crack a case based strictly on it. The stuff everyone does to follow up an abnormal analysis is stuff they should be doing anyway. And when the other stuff disagrees with the analysis, they fly on as if it was never done, only with less confidence.
 
Uuh, not. You do not normally pull accessories off to visually inspect the gears in the engine. So oil analysis can point to the start of things being back, and by the types of metal, point to where to look.

But your plane, your way of doing things.
 
With the consensus being they are used to see trends is there any issue starting out mid time hours wise? How many does one need to start looking at trends?
 
OneCharlieTango said:
No, I’m not a mechanic.

My point is that oil analysis adds nothing because no one would crack a case based strictly on it.
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Not being a mechanic simply means that you would not have experience in how this is a tool for a mechanic to use in diagnosing engine anomalies before they become a major concern.

As far as no one cracking a case based on an oil analysis ... I gave reference about a friend that did. Was that his only method of verifying a problem? I don't know but I do know that it was a tool used to find a discrepancy and, as I stated, it likely saved his bacon and his plane.
 
Huckster79 said:
With the consensus being they are used to see trends is there any issue starting out mid time hours wise? How many does one need to start looking at trends?
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I didn't start my analysis at the beginning as my engine had a few hundred hours on it before I did. It was the situation I mentioned to OneCharlieTango that made me consider using it.

One report won't tell much (it can be based against records for similar engines though) but when you get a few (three or more) you will start to see trends.
 
Daleandee said:
I didn't start my analysis at the beginning as my engine had a few hundred hours on it before I did. It was the situation I mentioned to OneCharlieTango that made me consider using it.

One report won't tell much (it can be based against records for similar engines though) but when you get a few (three or more) you will start to see trends.
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so really never to late to start, just file the results for a minute till ya have a few to start going from then?
 
Daleandee said:
Not being a mechanic simply means that you would not have experience in how this is a tool for a mechanic to use in diagnosing engine anomalies before they become a major concern.
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It means no such thing. I’ve been an aircraft owner for most of 30 years and have taught many a mechanic a thing or two. Are you a mechanic?

As far as no one cracking a case based on an oil analysis ... I gave reference about a friend that did. Was that his only method of verifying a problem? I don't know but I do know that it was a tool used to find a discrepancy and, as I stated, it likely saved his bacon and his plane.
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What did the oil analysis add?

People always talk about “it’s a tool,” following trends, etc. But in the end, the oil analysis always makes them do what they should’ve done anyway — note oil consumption, borescope, and cut filter. I’ve never heard of anyone tearing down a piston aircraft engine based on an oil analysis alone. I’ve also never heard of anyone NOT tearing down an engine when the oil analysis was normal but other things were amiss.

So, there are things you should be doing, and oil analysis. No matter what the results are, when they disagree, no one believes the oil analysis in preference to the other data. Which means its only use is in confirming what you already knew.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
It means no such thing. I’ve been an aircraft owner for most of 30 years and have taught many a mechanic a thing or two.
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I'm not here to argue the point any further. If oil analysis isn't for you then don't use it. But don't try to convince others that know better that it cannot be a useful part of aircraft engine maintenance.
 
Huckster79 said:
so really never to late to start, just file the results for a minute till ya have a few to start going from then?
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Yes. As others have noted the analysis can tell you if the engine is ingesting too much dirt, or if it's making metal, and what type of metal it is so that you know where to begin looking.

Admittedly I went for a long time without using oil analysis so it isn't something that I would insist on for everyone. Like I've tried to get across in other my other posts ... it's simply another tool in the box for preventative maintenance. I like it so I use it.
 
Daleandee said:
I'm not here to argue the point any further. If oil analysis isn't for you then don't use it. But don't try to convince others that know better that it cannot be a useful part of aircraft engine maintenance.
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Ok, so you’re not a mechanic either. Arguing from credentials is fallacious anyway.

But what about the guy whose bacon was saved by oil analysis? What did he do that he wouldn’t have done otherwise?

I’m happy to be shown where I’m wrong, but no one has ever been able to show me even a plausible hypothetical situation where oil analysis added anything useful to maintenance decision making.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
I’m happy to be shown where I’m wrong, but no one has ever been able to show me even a plausible hypothetical situation where oil analysis added anything useful to maintenance decision making.
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Let me repeat this for you: "I'm not here to argue the point any further. If oil analysis isn't for you then don't use it."
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Ok, so you’re not a mechanic either. Arguing from credentials is fallacious anyway.

But what about the guy whose bacon was saved by oil analysis? What did he do that he wouldn’t have done otherwise?

I’m happy to be shown where I’m wrong, but no one has ever been able to show me even a plausible hypothetical situation where oil analysis added anything useful to maintenance decision making.
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Separate point, but I had my first analysis done at my prebuy.
Everything looked good and it gave me some confidence that nothing was majorly wrong with the engine that the seller had patched or ignored. Yes we did a borescope, compression and cut the filter as well.
If nothing else it gives you a reason to look where you otherwise wouldn't.
 
Gary Ward said:
I have had one for every oil change since my engine was new, all kept in the engine log book. The next owner of my plane will like that if I don't use up the motor before I sell the plane.
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I’ve wondered about how this may affect a sale. What if it’s the other way around? Let’s say the engine has a higher than normal lab trend. Do you advise the potential buyer of a poor lab report if all other traditional indicators are normal? This info is tracked by SN and registration, so there’s a record. Could this hurt the sale?
On the other hand, if all the lab history is great it’s obviously a benefit.
I did a prebuy for a POA member a couple years ago. The oil analysis was consistently normal for past 15 years SMOH. Wasn’t long after the purchase that we found a number of internal engine components coming apart. Zero warning. We were ultimately able to get everything taken care of without splitting the case.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
My point is that oil analysis adds nothing because no one would crack a case based strictly on it.
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In most cases no you wouldnt split an engine based solely on an oil analysis. But I've personally seen when there is no oil trending and you wait till the issue shows up in the filter or it is worn to the point you can see it then the repair costs more. Thats the point of the trend. For example, we've caught several piston skirts that started to shed aluminum, a few valve tappets that were defective, and a number of other similar type issues. In most cases it was a simple part replacement or was a warranty claim instead of a major repair. I always recommend to start an oil analysis trend when appropriate. It is what it is.
 
Bell206 said:
In most cases no you wouldnt split an engine based solely on an oil analysis. But I've personally seen when there is no oil trending and you wait till the issue shows up in the filter or it is worn to the point you can see it then the repair costs more. Thats the point of the trend. For example, we've caught several piston skirts that started to shed aluminum, a few valve tappets that were defective, and a number of other similar type issues. In most cases it was a simple part replacement or was a warranty claim instead of a major repair. I always recommend to start an oil analysis trend when appropriate. It is what it is.
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What did you do in response to oil analysis that you wouldn’t have done anyway?
 
Having done my own oil analysis for fun in the research lab using a variety of methods (AA, ICP-OES, TXRF) I've concluded it is of limited usefulness without knowledge of methodology, confidence intervals, and detection limits. Trends are more useful than absolute values (which are largely meaningless unless at very high levels), and normally preventative maintenance action is only taken if correlated with some other observation (performance issues, metal in filter, oil on plugs, etc.) The only time I was alerted to a clearly identifiable maintenance issue was a very high silicon value. In this case a poorly fitting air filter was identified.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
What did you do in response to oil analysis that you wouldn’t have done anyway?
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As I mentioned, we went looking for the source of the increased contaminant. Without the report it would have taken weeks/months for the damage to be caught which in most cases will cause collateral damage as well. But if you dont think it works for your aircraft fine. I had a number of customers who didnt want to be bothered with it as well. However unless one fully understands the purpose of the trend and how to interpret the findings it probably wont be of much use to them either.
 
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