ODP: Report hold while climbing or not?

[Trogdor]

Scenario: Non-towered airport. Picking up my clearance. Tell ATC that I'm going to fly the published ODP which has something like "fly runway heading, turn, direct to the PoA VOR, climb in hold as published to MEA or assigned altitude" etc.

Do I need to report when I'm entering the hold while climbing to my assigned altitude/MEA and after I've completed the climb?

 

[luvflyin]

Scenario: Non-towered airport. Picking up my clearance. Tell ATC that I'm going to fly the published ODP which has something like "fly runway heading, turn, direct to the PoA VOR, climb in hold as published to MEA or assigned altitude" etc.

Do I need to report when I'm entering the hold while climbing to my assigned altitude/MEA and after I've completed the climb?

No. Unless you haven't been Radar Identified and the holding pattern is at a compulsory reporting point. That's probably going to be pretty rare. Towered or non Towered airport has nothing to do with it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

"Need" to? Perhaps not in this situation. But I would.

 

[Trogdor]

No. Unless you haven't been Radar Identified and the holding pattern is at a compulsory reporting point. That's probably going to be pretty rare. Towered or non Towered airport has nothing to do with it.

If its towered I’m going to get depart instructions so I sincerely doubt I would be out of radar contact or under MVA. So I’m not sure I agree with that comment.

 

[luvflyin]

If its towered I’m going to get depart instructions so I sincerely doubt I would be out of radar contact or under MVA. So I’m not sure I agree with that comment.

Your question was “Do I need to report when I'm entering the hold while climbing to my assigned altitude/MEA and after I've completed the climb?” The answer to that question does not change depending on whether you got your Clearance from a Tower, on the phone, FSS, relayed to you via a Unicom, CPDLC or any other method, if there are any.

 

[flyingron]

The MVA has nothing to do with it. And until you get the words "RADAR CONTACT you need to make the compulsory reports. You're not going to get "RADAR CONTACT" from the tower, even if there is one, even at the biggest airports. You get that from departure. Yes, more often than not, "radar contact" are the first words out of their mouth, but be prepared for it not to be. I've flown when IAD's radar was out, and I've been through coastal NC when they had zero radar.

 

[Trogdor]

First, I’d like to amend my statement above - I meant ATC vectored not towered. Mea culpa. I do agree the towered vs non-towered has nothing to do with it. I just assumed that if you at a towered airport they are going to hand you off the departure so you aren’t going to get an ODP to begin with.

The reason I mention the MVA here is because if you are above the MVA, I *assume* ATC could radar contact you and provide obstacle clearance. Is that not true? Can you be above the MVA and ATC still can’t guaranteed obstruction clearance?

I understand if you are radar contact and not above the MVA, you probably should stick with flying the published ODP otherwise risk becoming a pancake. However, I thought once you get above the MVA they can if they so choose guarantee obstacle clearance at some point.

For example, imagine VCOA instead of a published ODP. Can’t you check in with ATC above the MVA and ask them for a vector?

 

[Larry in TN]

Two sections of the AIM address reporting entering a hold.

5-3-3 Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(f)The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared​

5-3-8 Holding

f. Pilots should report to ATC the time and altitude/flight level at which the aircraft reaches the clearance limit and report leaving the clearance limit.​

First, these reports are not restricted to when not in radar contact so that doesn't matter. One reason why reports in holding can be important, even in radar contact, is if there are multiple aircraft in the hold the data blocks can overlap making it more difficult for ATC to see the information.

Second, the wording between the two paragraphs is slightly different. One says "clearance limit" while the other says "holding fix". The hold on the ODP is a holding fix but it is not a clearance limit.

I think that, because the holding fix is not a clearance limit, ATC will be less likely to need the report. However, it is still a holding fix so I'll make the report anyway. That way I'm covered no matter what he wants or is expecting.

 

[flyingron]

The reason I mention the MVA here is because if you are above the MVA, I *assume* ATC could radar contact you and provide obstacle clearance. Is that not true? Can you be above the MVA and ATC still can’t guaranteed obstruction clearance?

The MVA is of little significance to the pilot. Yes, you have to be above the MVA but what that is is a closely held secret with ATC. It's largely irrelevant. Vectoring is a radar procedure. You won't get a vector without radar contact.

 

[luvflyin]

Two sections of the AIM address reporting entering a hold.

5-3-3 Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(f)The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared​

5-3-8 Holding

f. Pilots should report to ATC the time and altitude/flight level at which the aircraft reaches the clearance limit and report leaving the clearance limit.​

First, these reports are not restricted to when not in radar contact so that doesn't matter. One reason why reports in holding can be important, even in radar contact, is if there are multiple aircraft in the hold the data blocks can overlap making it more difficult for ATC to see the information.

Second, the wording between the two paragraphs is slightly different. One says "clearance limit" while the other says "holding fix". The hold on the ODP is a holding fix but it is not a clearance limit.

I think that, because the holding fix is not a clearance limit, ATC will be less likely to need the report. However, it is still a holding fix so I'll make the report anyway. That way I'm covered no matter what he wants or is expecting.

Yup. Just as an aside here, they could clear you 'short' and give you the holding fix as your Clearance Limit.

 

[luvflyin]

First, I’d like to amend my statement above - I meant ATC vectored not towered. Mea culpa. I do agree the towered vs non-towered has nothing to do with it. I just assumed that if you at a towered airport they are going to hand you off the departure so you aren’t going to get an ODP to begin with.

The reason I mention the MVA here is because if you are above the MVA, I *assume* ATC could radar contact you and provide obstacle clearance. Is that not true? Can you be above the MVA and ATC still can’t guaranteed obstruction clearance?

I understand if you are radar contact and not above the MVA, you probably should stick with flying the published ODP otherwise risk becoming a pancake. However, I thought once you get above the MVA they can if they so choose guarantee obstacle clearance at some point.

For example, imagine VCOA instead of a published ODP. Can’t you check in with ATC above the MVA and ask them for a vector?

Radar Coverage is not a requirement for an MVA. This from the 7210.3, the order that establishes MVA criteria. "...MVAs are established without considering the flight− checked radar coverage in the sector concerned. They are based on obstruction clearance criteria and controlled airspace only. It is the responsibility of the controller to determine that a target return is adequate for radar control purposes..." You should stick with the ODP until they take you off of it, if they do. Once they take you off of it they have assumed responsibility for terrain and obstruction clearance and they cannot put you back on it. There are some instances where they can vector you below the MVA. You can 'request' a vector anytime you want to. You have no responsibility to know what the MVA is.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The MVA is of little significance to the pilot. Yes, you have to be above the MVA but what that is is a closely held secret with ATC.

Minimum Vectoring Altitude (MVA) and Minimum IFR Altitude (MIA) Charts (Kind of reminds me of the signs at the Cliffs of Dover, "This way to the Secret Tunnels."}

Although, having looked at them, I guess deciphering them might still be a closely guarded secret

 

[Trogdor]

Thanks guys for the feedback. I learned a few things.

 

[PPC1052]

Scenario: Non-towered airport. Picking up my clearance. Tell ATC that I'm going to fly the published ODP which has something like "fly runway heading, turn, direct to the PoA VOR, climb in hold as published to MEA or assigned altitude" etc.

Do I need to report when I'm entering the hold while climbing to my assigned altitude/MEA and after I've completed the climb?

Are you actually entering a "hold" in this situation? I am assuming from your question that ATC did not tell you to hold, and the only reference to a hold is in the published ODP. So, if it's not a hold issued by ATC, isn't the ODP instruction just a location for you to climb in a race track pattern to MVA or your assigned altitude? Absent a particular instruction from ATC to hold, is there there anything that prevents you from continuing on on your cleared route when you get to your assigned altitude?

 

[luvflyin]

Are you actually entering a "hold" in this situation? I am assuming from your question that ATC did not tell you to hold, and the only reference to a hold is in the published ODP. So, if it's not a hold issued by ATC, isn't the ODP instruction just a location for you to climb in a race track pattern to MVA or your assigned altitude? Absent a particular instruction from ATC to hold, is there there anything that prevents you from continuing on on your cleared route when you get to your assigned altitude?

No. You continue. Assigned altitude wouldn't be the thing you need. It would be the altitude that the ODP says climb to in the hold before proceeding on course. And if it's a compulsory reporting point and you are not in radar contact, you report it.

 

[dmspilot]

Are you actually entering a "hold" in this situation? I am assuming from your question that ATC did not tell you to hold, and the only reference to a hold is in the published ODP. So, if it's not a hold issued by ATC, isn't the ODP instruction just a location for you to climb in a race track pattern to MVA or your assigned altitude? Absent a particular instruction from ATC to hold, is there there anything that prevents you from continuing on on your cleared route when you get to your assigned altitude?

That's what I was wondering. Doesn't seem like an ODP is really a hold for the purpose of AIM 5-3-3.

 

[Trogdor]

@dmspilot That's what I was trying to figure out. Is it just sorta like a VCOA (which you tell ATC you're gonna do but you don't have to tell them when you enter and exit like a hold)?

AFAICT, the answer is you don't have to report it but it's probably good practice if you do.