NW flight overflies destination

Ron Levy said:
I think the option to turn in their tickets will be preempted by the FAA.
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No 30-60 day suspension on this one?

But seriously, *if* the FBI, FAA, or local PD determines they lied to them (obstruction?) then does that automatically violate the "good morale" requirement for ATP?
 
Pi1otguy said:
No 30-60 day suspension on this one?
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A suspension requires that you turn your tickets in for the duration of the suspension -- physically turn them over, not just stop using them.
But seriously, *if* the FBI, FAA, or local PD determines they lied to them (obstruction?) then does that automatically violate the "good morale" requirement for ATP?
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It wouldn't be up to the agency to whom they were alleged to have lied, but rather a court of law to determine that they were guilty of lying to a Federal official.

Also, if "good morale" was a requirement to fly for the airlines, several airlines would be grounded right now.:D

But if you're referring to the "good moral character" clause in 61.153(c), I believe a conviction for violating 18 USC 1001 would indeed be sufficient grounds for the FAA to revoke their ATP certificates. Whether the FAA actually would do that or not based on such a conviction would be mere speculation, but I personally think it likely if such a conviction were obtained against an ATP-holder. A quick search of the NTSB files shows nine cases involving 61.153(c), and the charges leading to revocation (with 8 out of 9 sustained) were mostly about falsified logs/applications to the FAA (an administrative matter requiring only preponderance of the evidence), which isn't as severe as a conviction on a Federal statute about lying to the Feds (a criminal matter requiring proof beyond reasonable doubt).
 
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I just saw this at wsj.com

In its emergency revocation, which is effective immediately, the Federal Aviation Administration said the veteran pilots, Capt. Timothy B. Cheney and first officer Richard Cole, violated a number of regulations and operated the aircraft in a careless manner.
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Surely they had attorneys representing them?
Have to wonder what options they had going into Monday's meeting (and why they chose that option!).
 
you know its an obscure reference when you can't find it in either google or wiki!
 
These guys Effed up. They deserve the consequences lawyered up or not.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Surely they had attorneys representing them?
Have to wonder what options they had going into Monday's meeting (and why they chose that option!).
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They are represented by the Airline Pilots Association and they provide legal to crews in an instance like this.

The crew also can hire their own attorneys also.
 
I am as pro pilot and pro aviation as anyone walking this earth (or flying it)... But, if I were the ALJ sitting in judgment on these two it would be a thumbs down... It is not that they missed the airport, or that they were engrossed in 'whatever' when they were required by law to be attending to the flight... It is that for ONE AND ONE HALF HOURS these two put the aircraft and the passengers in jeopardy while they ignored the instrument panel, the radio, the condition of the plane, the altitude, the heading, the cabin pressure, the fuel flow, any crossing or incoming traffic because they drifted off altitude, any emergency in other planes that would need them to move out of the way, a sudden change in the weather, and on, and on...
My advice to them and their attorney, would be to get speech training as in, "You want fries with that?"...

denny-o
 
Dr. O said:
I am as pro pilot and pro aviation as anyone walking this earth (or flying it)... But, if I were the ALJ sitting in judgment on these two it would be a thumbs down... It is not that they missed the airport, or that they were engrossed in 'whatever' when they were required by law to be attending to the flight... It is that for ONE AND ONE HALF HOURS these two put the aircraft and the passengers in jeopardy while they ignored the instrument panel, the radio, the condition of the plane, the altitude, the heading, the cabin pressure, the fuel flow, any crossing or incoming traffic because they drifted off altitude, any emergency in other planes that would need them to move out of the way, a sudden change in the weather, and on, and on...
My advice to them and their attorney, would be to get speech training as in, "You want fries with that?"...

denny-o
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+1 :frown2:
 
Yup, I can't disagree with Denny. While I advocate leniency and second chances, there are some positions of responsibility where a single gross error in judgment rightly leads to a single gross punishment.
 
Dr. O said:
I am as pro pilot and pro aviation as anyone walking this earth (or flying it)... But, if I were the ALJ sitting in judgment on these two it would be a thumbs down... It is not that they missed the airport, or that they were engrossed in 'whatever' when they were required by law to be attending to the flight... It is that for ONE AND ONE HALF HOURS these two put the aircraft and the passengers in jeopardy while they ignored the instrument panel, the radio, the condition of the plane, the altitude, the heading, the cabin pressure, the fuel flow, any crossing or incoming traffic because they drifted off altitude, any emergency in other planes that would need them to move out of the way, a sudden change in the weather, and on, and on...
My advice to them and their attorney, would be to get speech training as in, "You want fries with that?"...
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That's pretty much my take on this too. Yesterday I heard many people on a radio call-in show say the sanction was too extreme because no harm was done. That may be true, but there was a lot of potential.

A few years ago there was an incident in the western US where two NORDO aircraft were to cross paths in very close proximity. Neither could be raised by any means. I don't remember if the general media made note of it at all, but the FAA considered it so serious a mandatory training video was made from it. Half of that situation was repeated with this Northwest flight, throw another NORDO aircraft in the mix and we're back to the Big Sky Theory.
 
roncachamp said:
That's pretty much my take on this too. Yesterday I heard many people on a radio call-in show say the sanction was too extreme because no harm was done. That may be true, but there was a lot of potential.

<SNIP>
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I wonder how many of these very same people would be yelling for more training, jail, death penalty, etc if there was an incident because of the DeltaWest cockpit crew.
 
Areeda said:
I just saw this at wsj.com
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Well, you don't have to worry about Regional crews using their laptops in the cockpit, because they don't get paid enough to buy laptops!

See, having underpaid crews makes the traveling public safer! :D


Trapper John
 
And the media dropped the ball by not being all over the Delta landing-on-a-taxiway incident last week with the same vigor as this NWA issue.
 
I'm still calling BS on the pilots' story. Something really odd had to have been going on to miss 78 minutes for radio calls plus lights & bells going off (presumably).

At this point, a self admission of such a dereliction of duty implies something worse really happened. Or they simply started with a little lie that's grown into a web of lies to cover previous lies.
 
Pi1otguy said:
I'm still calling BS on the pilots' story. Something really odd had to have been going on to miss 78 minutes for radio calls plus lights & bells going off (presumably).

At this point, a self admission of such a dereliction of duty implies something worse really happened. Or they simply started with a little lie that's grown into a web of lies to cover previous lies.
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What's your theory, you think they were joining the Mile High club together or something?:yikes:
 
gprellwitz said:
What's your theory, you think they were joining the Mile High club together or something?:yikes:
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Based on nothing factual my theories from most to least probably in my mind are:

1. The fell asleep
2. They accidentally turned down the volume on the radios or turned up the squelch. Then assumed "It's just quiet today"
3. They made some great procedural error (relative to company policy) & spent the time thinking "What do we do?" followed by "O shoot, it's recorded on the CVR, what now?"
3. The stewardess offered some inflight "entertainment", but they want to protect her.
4. The had other inflight "entertainment" and lost track of time.
5. One crewman was having a tough distressing personal issue that the other was consoling him on and lost track of time.
6. There is an upcoming pilots protest of a few minutes of radio silence, but they got the date & time wrong and thought "Oh shoot, what do we do?"
7. They actually had an argument about company scheduling/policy that turned into " 'F' this. If they treat us like this I'm not doing another thing any more." followed by the other crewman talking him down from his defient position.
8. Some flavor of conspiracy involving the covert air dropping of personnel east of MSP.
9. They discussed illegal/questionable activities and realized the cockpit is miked. Spent the remainder of time looking for the erase button then remembering the 30 minute loop.
10. Cosmic rays, alien ship, or some quantum singularity separated them from the normal timeline.

And yea, starting at #6 my theores are on the edge of plausibility.
 
The AP wire noted the following.

WASHINGTON – The Federal Aviation Administration on Tuesday revoked
the licenses of the two Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot their
Minneapolis destination by 150 miles.

The pilots — Timothy Cheney of Gig Harbor, Wash., the captain, and
Richard Cole of Salem, Ore., the first officer — told safety
investigators they were working on their personal laptop computers and
lost track of time and place.

The pilots, who were out of communications with air traffic
controllers for 91 minutes, violated numerous federal safety
regulations in the incident last Wednesday night, the FAA said in a
statement. The violations included failing to comply with air traffic
control instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and
recklessly, the agency said.

"You engaged in conduct that put your passengers and your crew in
serious jeopardy," FAA regional counsel Eddie Thomas said in a letter
to Cheney. Northwest Flight 188 was not in communications with
controllers or the airline dispatchers "while you were on a frolic of
your own. ... This is a total dereliction and disregard for your
duties."

A similar letter was sent to Cole.

The pilots said they were brought back to awareness when a flight
attendant contacted them on the aircraft's intercom. By then, they
were over Wisconsin at 37,000 feet. They turned the Airbus A320 with
its 144 passengers around and landed safely in Minneapolis.

The revocations, which apply to the pilots' commercial licenses, are
effective immediately, FAA said.

The pilots have 10 days to appeal the emergency revocations to the
National Transportation Safety Board.

The pilots' union at Delta Air Lines, which acquired Northwest last
year, had cautioned against a rush to judgment. The pilots told
investigators who interviewed them on Sunday that they had no previous
accidents or safety incidents.

The union had no immediate comment Tuesday.

Delta spokesman Anthony Black said in a statement: "The pilots in
command of Northwest Flight 188 remain suspended until the conclusion
of the investigations into this incident."

The NTSB has not taken or examined the laptops that the pilots were
using, spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz said Tuesday.

"The pilots said they were using them. So I don't know what any
examination of them" would do to further the investigation,
Lopatkiewicz said.

The pilots failed to respond to numerous radio messages from
controllers in Denver and Minneapolis. Other pilots also tried to
raise the Northwest pilots, and their airline's dispatchers sent text
messages by radio.

Cole and Cheney said they both had their laptops out while the first
officer, who had more experience with scheduling, instructed the
captain on monthly flight crew scheduling. They said they weren't
listening to the radio or watching cockpit flight displays during that
period. The plane's radio was also still tuned to the frequency used
by Denver controllers after the San Diego-to-Minneapolis flight had
flown beyond their reach.

The incident comes only a month after Transportation Secretary Ray
LaHood held a meeting in Washington on distracted driving, bringing
together researchers, regulators and safety advocates in response to
vehicle and train accidents involving texting and cell phone use.
Pilots and aviation safety experts said the episode is likely to cause
the NTSB and the FAA to take a hard look at the use of laptops and
other personal electronic devices in the cockpit.

There are no federal rules that specifically ban pilots' use of
laptops or other personal electronic devices as long as the plane is
flying above 10,000 feet, said Diane Spitaliere, an FAA spokeswoman.
Delta said in a statement that using laptops or engaging in activity
unrelated to the pilots' command of the aircraft during flight is
strictly against the airline's flight deck policies. The airline said
violations of that policy will result in termination.
 
Pi1otguy said:
I'm still calling BS on the pilots' story. Something really odd had to have been going on to miss 78 minutes for radio calls plus lights & bells going off (presumably).

At this point, a self admission of such a dereliction of duty implies something worse really happened. Or they simply started with a little lie that's grown into a web of lies to cover previous lies.
Click to expand...

There are no bells or chimes when an ACARS message comes in. Messages sent directly to the ACARS printer cause no audible alerts and the ACARS printer is actually behind your normal field of view. They would recieve an audio alert only if they got a SEL call but it doesn't sound as if this was actually tried. If they had both inadvertantly turned down or off VHF 1 and 2, they wouldn't hear any com tries by ATC.

The autopilot/ flight director simply goes into a heading mode once it hits the last waypoint. Ther is no audible alert, only some indications on the Primary Flight Display that could be missed or blocked by a laptop sitting on the tray table. The aircraft won't leave a cruise altitude without direct human control no matter how much is programmed into it.

I think their story is very plausible. In todays anti fatigue climate, they probably would be better off lying and saying they had fallen asleep. I'm not making a judgement on their performance, just saying that their story is plausible and there is no evidence that it is not the truth.
 
maddog52 said:
I think their story is very plausible. In todays anti fatigue climate, they probably would be better off lying and saying they had fallen asleep. I'm not making a judgement on their performance, just saying that their story is plausible and there is no evidence that it is not the truth.
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:yikes::yikes:

Better off lying?

:yikes::yikes:
 
Pi1otguy said:
Based on nothing factual my theories from most to least probably in my mind are:

1. The fell asleep
2. They accidentally turned down the volume on the radios or turned up the squelch. Then assumed "It's just quiet today"
3. They made some great procedural error (relative to company policy) & spent the time thinking "What do we do?" followed by "O shoot, it's recorded on the CVR, what now?"
3. The stewardess offered some inflight "entertainment", but they want to protect her.
4. The had other inflight "entertainment" and lost track of time.
5. One crewman was having a tough distressing personal issue that the other was consoling him on and lost track of time.
6. There is an upcoming pilots protest of a few minutes of radio silence, but they got the date & time wrong and thought "Oh shoot, what do we do?"
7. They actually had an argument about company scheduling/policy that turned into " 'F' this. If they treat us like this I'm not doing another thing any more." followed by the other crewman talking him down from his defient position.
8. Some flavor of conspiracy involving the covert air dropping of personnel east of MSP.
9. They discussed illegal/questionable activities and realized the cockpit is miked. Spent the remainder of time looking for the erase button then remembering the 30 minute loop.
10. Cosmic rays, alien ship, or some quantum singularity separated them from the normal timeline.

And yea, starting at #6 my theores are on the edge of plausibility.
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No, no NOOOOOoooooo. :nono:

It was definitely #10, the aliens. The plane was on autopilot during the period of time the pilots were removed from the cockpit and experimented on. When the pilots were returned to the cockpit, they were past MSP already...
 
A controller on one board shares his thoughts: We used to fantasize about a large radio-controlled mallet above the captain's head...



I don't ever want to get on his bad side <g>

I always thought something like a submarine Klaxon might do the trick!

Best,

Dave
 

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OK, so now the pilots over flew their destination because of the outdated ATC system... so says...

...(wait for it)...


...USA Today.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-10-27-outdated-air-traffic-system_N.htm#uslPageReturn

The odyssey of an airliner that flew hundreds of miles while out of radio communication highlights the weaknesses of the nation's outdated air-traffic system, according to aviation experts and controllers.

...

When a jet flies across the country, its pilots have to change radio frequencies dozens of times. With each change, controllers read a new frequency to pilots, who manually change their radios. According to controllers and pilots, mistakes occur frequently, though most are minor and short-lived.

The article closes with a reference to the 2 747 collision at Tenerife.

"Journalism" at its finest.
 
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