NW flight overflies destination

colomtnflyer

colomtnflyer

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It is being reported that a NW Airlines flight has overflown it's destination airport by almost 150 miles. During this overflight, radio communication was unable to be established by ATC.

It is now being investigated as a case of the flight crew having fallen asleep.
 
Source or reference?

At this time, not on CNN.com. Probably not posted as yet on CNN...
 
colomtnflyer said:
It is now being investigated as a case of the flight crew having fallen asleep.
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If only the flight crew could have gotten up, walked to the galley and stretched their legs for 10-20 minutes while getting a cup of coffee and not fear Internet whining this might have been avoided.

Speculation on my part, but one has to wonder.
 
************************************************************
NTSB ADVISORY
************************************************************

National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594


October 22, 2009


************************************************************
NTSB INVESTIGATING FLIGHT THAT OVERFLEW INTENDED MINNEAPOLIS AIRPORT

************************************************************


The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating an
incident where an Airbus A320 overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul
International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport (MSP).

On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, at 5:56 pm mountain daylight time,
an Airbus A320, N03274, operating as Northwest Airlines (NWA) flight
188, became a NORDO (no radio communications) flight at 37,000 feet.
The flight was operating as a Part 121 flight from San Diego
International Airport, San Diego, California (SAN) to MSP with 147
passengers and unknown number of crew.

At 7:58 pm central daylight time (CDT), the aircraft flew over the
destination airport and continued northeast for approximately 150
miles. The MSP center controller reestablished communications with
the crew at 8:14 pm and reportedly stated that the crew had become
distracted and had overflown MSP, and requested to return to MSP.

According to the Federal Administration (FAA) the crew was
interviewed by the FBI and airport police. The crew stated they
were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost
situational awareness. The Safety Board is scheduling an interview
with the crew.

The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and flight data recorder (FDR) have
been secured and are being sent to the NTSB laboratory in
Washington, DC.

David Lawrence, the Investigator-in-Charge, is leading the team of 3
in investigating the incident.

Parties to the investigation are the FAA and Northwest Airlines.


-30-

NTSB Media Contact: Keith Holloway
hollowk@ntsb.gov
(202) 314-6100



************************************************************

This message is delivered to you as a free service from the
National Transportation Safety Board.

You may unsubscribe at any time at
http://www.ntsb.gov/registration/registration.htm

An archive of press releases is available at
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/pressrel.htm

Current job opportunities with the NTSB are listed at
http://www.ntsb.gov/vacancies/listing.htm

For questions/problems, contact pubinq@ntsb.gov
 
How long does it take before the CVR overwrites itself?
 
smigaldi said:
You know, I think I would have stuck with the 'fallen asleep' theory than make that line of stuff up.
Click to expand...

If they truly fell asleep, they could try to attribute it to some medical or environmental condition. I agree; if I fell asleep I'd stick to that story.

Either way, if the CVR records that they LIED about arguing, or if they were indeed arguing and "lost situational awareness" for that length of time, their careers are sealed.
 
vontresc said:
How long does it take before the CVR overwrites itself?
Click to expand...
I think current specs have it up to 2 hours, but I don't know if that is required by FAA regualtions to be placed into part 121 aircraft or being phased in to replace the older 30 minute ones. Maybe one of the heavy metal guys here knows for sure.
 
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The crew stated they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness.
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Ummm, Blowing Snow

vontresc said:
How long does it take before the CVR overwrites itself?
Click to expand...

Actually, a long time. Not sure of the details but the digital recorders can record a lot these days.
 
TMetzinger said:
...

According to the Federal Administration (FAA) the crew was
interviewed by the FBI and airport police. The crew stated they
were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost
situational awareness. The Safety Board is scheduling an interview
with the crew.

...

The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and flight data recorder (FDR) have
been secured and are being sent to the NTSB laboratory in
Washington, DC.


If this was truly the case, then the point is moot! For I'm sure they will never again fly for NWA. It will be interesting to hear what the CVR has to say. What do they hold? 30 or 60 minute loops?
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colomtnflyer said:
TMetzinger said:
...

According to the Federal Administration (FAA) the crew was
interviewed by the FBI and airport police. The crew stated they
were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost
situational awareness. The Safety Board is scheduling an interview
with the crew.

...

The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and flight data recorder (FDR) have
been secured and are being sent to the NTSB laboratory in
Washington, DC.
If this was truly the case, then the point is moot! For I'm sure they will never again fly for NWA. It will be interesting to hear what the CVR has to say. What do they hold? 30 or 60 minute loops?
Click to expand...

Being a bit presumptive aren't you?:nono:
Click to expand...
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They just released a transcrip of the CVR here it is below:

CO"Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

FO"zzzzzzzsnftzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

Co"zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzz"

FO" snorthfhutzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

FO" Huh? wha? OH S#*T
 
ron22 said:
Is that normal even after 9/11 ?
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Yes. Even before 9/11 a NORDO jet that DIDN'T follow the IFR rules would have been intercepted, not only for threat potential but to see what went wrong (like depressurization). It happened with Payne Stewart.
 
vontresc said:
How long does it take before the CVR overwrites itself?
Click to expand...
If it's tape, the FBI lab can still recover the overwritten data if they put enough effort into it. And if the story above is really what the crew told the interviewers, they just might do that. If it's digital memory, there might be no way to recover overwritten data. Any way you cut it, if the crew said what was reported, they're already in deep trouble, and the only question is whether that story turns out to be cover for something worse. Either way, they're going to need lawyers, and I don't think an ASRS report is going to help them.
 
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AdamZ said:
They just released a transcrip of the CVR here it is below:

CO"Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

FO"zzzzzzzsnftzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

Co"zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzz"

FO" snorthfhutzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

FO" Huh? wha? OH S#*T
Click to expand...

You owe me a new keyboard! THAT was funny. :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
I learned during one of my Center tours that when an IFR flight requests an unusual deviation (e.g. not for weather) or goes NORDO, they will contact Washington with the particulars, and a threat assessment will be made. Not that they'll necessarily take action, but it will definitely be noted.
 
I feel like we're getting ahead of ourselves. Do we have any idea what happened, other than what some clueless reporters wrote? Any?

I don't think we do.

-Felix
 
gprellwitz said:
I learned during one of my Center tours that when an IFR flight requests an unusual deviation (e.g. not for weather) or goes NORDO, they will contact Washington with the particulars, and a threat assessment will be made. Not that they'll necessarily take action, but it will definitely be noted.
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I suspect very strongly that this is done via the DEN, which seems to exist for exactly such a purpose.

The purpose of the DEN is to provide timely notification to the appropriate authority that there is an emerging air-related problem or incident within the CONUS. The DEN is managed and facilitated by ATSCs under the direction of Tactical Operations Security.
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-Felix
 
sba55 said:
I suspect very strongly that this is done via the DEN, which seems to exist for exactly such a purpose.
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I once heard a controller give a crew the telephone number for the Domestic Events Network to call when they landed. I had never heard of it before. They had been NORDO for awhile and when they came back on they said they had their radios set wrong. I wonder what triggers that since missing a frequency change and being NORDO for awhile happens on occasion.
 
sba55 said:
I feel like we're getting ahead of ourselves. Do we have any idea what happened, other than what some clueless reporters wrote? Any?
Click to expand...
That was an official release from the NTSB which said, "The crew stated [to the FBI] they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness," not something from a "clueless reporter," and the NTSB doesn't usually release any factual information they're not sure of. See http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2009/091022.html.
 
Ron Levy said:
That was an official release from the NTSB which said, "The crew stated [to the FBI] they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness," not something from a "clueless reporter," and the NTSB doesn't usually release any factual information they're not sure of. See http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2009/091022.html.
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Ok, but I don't see how this changes the fact that we don't know at all what happened. Discussion about airline policy can mean anything.

Everskyward said:
I once heard a controller give a crew the telephone number for the Domestic Events Network to call when they landed. I had never heard of it before. They had been NORDO for awhile and when they came back on they said they had their radios set wrong. I wonder what triggers that since missing a frequency change and being NORDO for awhile happens on occasion.
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No idea. I also why he would give them that number? Never having called it, I have no idea what happens. I'm sure it's not just a conference call in the traditional sense...but...I forgot to ask them on my last TRACON visit.

-Felix
 
sba55 said:
Ok, but I don't see how this changes the fact that we don't know at all what happened. Discussion about airline policy can mean anything.
Click to expand...
True, but unless they were talking in their sleep, they were awake the whole time. That said, I'm not sure which would be worse -- falling asleep, or yakking so much they forgot where they were and missed all the calls (including, no doubt, the ones on Guard as well as their last assigned freq). I also note that the discussion was described as "heated." I wonder if that's anything like something that happened a long time ago...

The year is 1979, the place is the front office of a small commuter line’s Beech 99, the crew is 45 years old. By this, I do not mean that they are EACH 45 years old; I mean that TOGETHER they are 45. The 23-year-old captain has 1210 hours and the ink wet on his ATP ticket, and passed his line check yesterday. It’s his first flight on his own as a captain. The 22-year-old copilot has 510 hours and finished training last week. It’s his first flight on the line, too. Scheduling being what it is, they both through juniority got the same (worst available) bid line, and it’s the first trip of the month.

Now, no one is really sure what got it started, but on their first leg from the company’s home base at Owensboro to Frankfort (Kentucky, not Germany), at 5000 feet a few miles west of Louisville, Kentucky, the two of them got into an all-out top-of-the-lungs, finger-in-the-chest, f-word-yelling argument. Need I remind you that the cockpit crew of a Beech 99 is separated from the passengers not by a solid partition and locked door, but by a few inches and a thin curtain? The half-dozen or so passengers had ringside seats and heard every single word. The exchange ended with the captain screaming at the copilot, “Now shut the $%^% up, sit on your $%^%ing hands, do nothing, and say nothing. I don’t want to hear another $%^%ing word out of your $%^%ing mouth until we land.” (Or maybe he said, “…until we $%^%ing land.” Witness reports are conflicting, and investigators are of the opinion that this point is insignificant in the overall context. However, in light of subsequent events, the use of this rather negative adverb to describe the impending landing seems ironically appropriate, and even prophetic.) I understand that both the copilot and the terrified passengers absolutely obeyed the captain’s command – the cabin was dead silent for the rest of the flight. In fact, the next sound heard was the prop tips dinging on the runway at Frankfort, followed by the screech of the belly sliding along the blacktop. Witnesses suggest the captain used the f-word one more time during the landing (see prophecy above).

In the aftermath of the gear-up landing, no one was ever able to ascertain exactly what the copilot’s thoughts were. Some folks think he just “dropped out” completely, staring out the window, totally unaware that the captain had failed to lower the gear. Others believe he noticed this omission, but was so terrified after the captain’s earlier tirade that he simply watched in fear as it happened without saying a word. And then there’s the third school of thought (towards which I tend) which believes that he saw what was happening and thought to himself, “You don’t want my help? OK, buddy…go ahead…make my day.” I have no confirmation of the report that some passengers heard giggling from the copilot’s area while the captain ordered emergency evacuation.

And the postscript. After the FAA got done with the two lads (30 day suspension for the captain, 15 for the copilot, if I remember), the company produced a novel application of CRM. They managed their crew resources by putting them both back to work…with a note posted in the scheduling office that no matter what, under no circumstances, would these two ever be allowed in the same company airplane again. There’s a lesson here somewhere, but after 30 years I still haven’t figured it out.
 
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If I understand correctly, the cockpit voice recorders have an erase button. You don't suppose they pushed that after landing, do you? What is the logic used to enable/disable the erase button? I know it is disabled in the air, but does the parking brake or engine running have any input? Maybe the reason the FBI rushed the cockpit was to prevent them from erasing the tape? Just some thoughts.

Hard to believe the "heated argument" story... I understood that it was Denver Center that lost contact with them. They must have gone quite a ways without contact. (An hour?) I can't remember if the story said.

Yeah, I agree though, I don't see why "having an argument" would be a better excuse than "falling asleep".

Judd
 
jspittler said:
If I understand correctly, the cockpit voice recorders have an erase button. You don't suppose they pushed that after landing, do you? What is the logic used to enable/disable the erase button? I know it is disabled in the air, but does the parking brake or engine running have any input? Maybe the reason the FBI rushed the cockpit was to prevent them from erasing the tape? Just some thoughts.

Hard to believe the "heated argument" story... I understood that it was Denver Center that lost contact with them. They must have gone quite a ways without contact. (An hour?) I can't remember if the story said.
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First, I don't think that there's a button in the cockpit that will erase the recording. Maybe Greg or one of the other "heavy iron" pilots can confirm?
Edit: I was incorrect, and there is such a button, though there are sometimes various technical, procedural, and legal prohibitions to its use at various times.

And I don't think anyone said Denver Center. DEN is the "Domestic Events Network" in this context.
 
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Hmm, I wonder if instead of a heated discussion they were actually engaged in something else heated...

Then again, they were NORDO for over an hour and that seems a bit too long for what I was thinking.
 
gprellwitz said:
I learned during one of my Center tours that when an IFR flight requests an unusual deviation (e.g. not for weather) or goes NORDO, they will contact Washington with the particulars, and a threat assessment will be made. Not that they'll necessarily take action, but it will definitely be noted.
Click to expand...


Ahhh I was not aware of this. It explains why I have been universally asked for a reason when I altered my flight IFR. I was a bit put-out by it but figured it was some policy change because pilots were being coy about minimum fuel or other potential mechanical issues. On my last long flight back I had to explain that if Cessna's ran on pee-pee we could keep flying all night but both of us needed to stop prematurely in Rockford.
 
gprellwitz said:
I learned during one of my Center tours that when an IFR flight requests an unusual deviation (e.g. not for weather) or goes NORDO, they will contact Washington with the particulars, and a threat assessment will be made. Not that they'll necessarily take action, but it will definitely be noted.
Click to expand...

I made a destination change once while enroute and was taken aback by the questioning. Had never heard of atc asking the reason for such a change; seemed kind of prying - I asked and they mumbled something about 'they make us report such changes'. I said "everything is fine; the boss just wants us to proceed to x not y; that is all I am told."
Anyway what you post makes sense - I did hear of this after the incident.
 
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