Number of questions regarding certificates and careers

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EchoKilo

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EchoKilo
As a 20-something who hasn't figured out what he wants to do with his life, I'm here to ask about aviation certifications and potential careers. As those of you who've read my other thread know, I plan on finishing my PPL this summer. After that I'm really tossing around the idea of going on to get my instrument, and eventually commercial, ratings. So my questions are these:

1) How many hours additionally is an instrument and commercial rating? I may be terrible at research, but I couldn't seem to pinpoint how many hours it is for these tickets. Essentially, what will I have to do to obtain it?

2) What does it take on top of a commercial rating to become a CFI?

3) Becoming a CFI is what I'm most interested in currently. I typed "how much does a flight instructor make" into google and got the following response:

"The median annual Flight Instructor salary is $99,103, as of January 30, 2018, with a range usually between $91,111-$111,575, however this can vary widely depending on a variety of factors."

Trying not to get too excited, I decided to ask actual pilots if this is the case? There's also other things to consider as well, like job security. How much demand will there be for this job in 20, 30, 40 years? Is becoming a CFI for a living a good idea? Is working for a nice flight school better than freelancing it?

Thanks for all answers and wisdom!
 
Move the decimal to the left one position. That's about right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
That pay range for a CFI is not accurate for a newly licensed instructor teaching at a flight school... unless you change it to pesos from dollars. As a frame of reference i have a friend that works as an instructor on jets at an airline. He is a current Captain qualified pilot for the airline and works in the training department doing training and checking events... His pay is on the low end of the range you posted. Primary instructors with minimal experience make no where near that much money. I'm not sure today but when I was working as a CFI the norm was 20-35k a year.

Your questions regarding training requirements for additional ratings are found in Part 61 of the FAA regs. Just an FYI one of the most important skills a flight instructor posses is the ability to lookup information on their own.. Finding the information you are looking for is not hard. I find it hard to believe you tried very hard to look for it yourself. Im not trying to bust your balls but this career requires a lot of initiative and the ability to make your own way. Flight instructors are more like mentors helping you learn but much of the process is on you, especially if you want a career in aviation.

The following link is the current part 61. Every thing you asked regarding certification requirements will be found in part 61.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...e&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfr61_main_02.tpl
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...e&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfr61_main_02.tpl
 
So you're saying I should order a pizza and call it a day?
 
Training time is kind of like your PPL. thenregs give minimum hours only, not actual. Plus both Instrument and Commercial have Total Time and Cross Country time requirements. Fly a lot . . . . And don't expect to earn 90K as a starting salary. Does that work for you? Oh, let's not forget CFI training, learning to fly and land from the right seat, and being able to teach.

Good luck!
 
Regardless, have a fallback plan. Make sure you have education and skills other than being a pilot because an unexpected health issue can kill your medical certificate and flying career overnight.
 
EchoKilo said:
As a 20-something who hasn't figured out what he wants to do with his life,
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Don’t worry, most of us don’t know at 30, 40, 50... either. And you don’t have to do anything your whole life. :)

EchoKilo said:
1) How many hours additionally is an instrument and commercial rating? I may be terrible at research, but I couldn't seem to pinpoint how many hours it is for these tickets. Essentially, what will I have to do to obtain it?
Click to expand...

The minimums are listed in the FAR. You’ll really need to learn to read those if you’re going to do the CFI, so... not going to answer that one. And remember they’re minimums.

EchoKilo said:
2) What does it take on top of a commercial rating to become a CFI?
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A CFI certificate. :) See regulations. :)

EchoKilo said:
3) Becoming a CFI is what I'm most interested in currently. I typed "how much does a flight instructor make" into google and got the following response:

"The median annual Flight Instructor salary is $99,103, as of January 30, 2018, with a range usually between $91,111-$111,575, however this can vary widely depending on a variety of factors."
Click to expand...

I don’t know any instructors making that. Even at large schools with piles of students.

Just do the math yourself. Google stuff like “What do you charge per hour as a CFI?” You’ll find real data that way. Then you could multiply that by 8 hours a day if that’s what you call “full time” but many instructors only get paid in the air, others charge for handshake to handshake and include ground work, and even others charge differently for ground and air. Time builders who want to move on quickly may charge rates below the average to undercut everyone else and blast through the hours quicker to get to a better paid flying job. And depending on who you ask, less experienced instructors may choose to charge a bit less for the first few students.

Specialization tends to push the rates higher. Instructors with a billion hours in high performance, high tech, or multi engine aircraft or all three combined, may be able to charge a bit more. It’s all up to the local market and who they work for, if they’re not self-employed. If self-employed, insurance and other costs must be factored in. Insurance is VERY high for independent instructors.

You can reverse that math above and figure out how many hours and how many students you would need to just pay the annual insurance bill. Add the purchase of an aircraft and maintenance of it, if you want to be completely self-employed and you’ll be working a LOT of hours to just “make the nut” before you ever turn a profit. It CAN be done, but you’ll literally live at the airport.

EchoKilo said:
Trying not to get too excited, I decided to ask actual pilots if this is the case? There's also other things to consider as well, like job security. How much demand will there be for this job in 20, 30, 40 years? Is becoming a CFI for a living a good idea? Is working for a nice flight school better than freelancing it?

Thanks for all answers and wisdom!
Click to expand...

Job security? Who knows. Automation is slowly taking over. 40 years is a long time. Will people trust pilot-less cockpits in 40 years? Hard to predict.

Okay all of that aside here’s the reality from what I’ve seen since 1991.

Every instructor I ever met who said they loved teaching and wanted to do it for the rest of their pilot career, eventually needed the better benefits of other paid flying positions (medical, new wife having a baby, etc) or the money lured them away.

The number of instructor positions on the low end at the Primary teaching level where you earn a nice salary, have all expenses like insurance fully paid for, and have standard “career” benefits packages are very very small. And they’re usually at very large schools where you’d be incredibly busy all the time. Most of those schools hire the kids they just trained and those kids teach the next kids and so on and so on.

That said, I’ve been training at a place where the instructors for the most part are retired airline and military pilots. They do accelerated training and own a few aircraft and work together on a handful of students and keep a constant flow of students at all times. They’re doing “good” as a business, but downtime on aircraft or instructors can be hard on their business flow. They’re also not cheap and they aren’t charging the lower rates most of the local clubs charge. But... you know the experience level of your instructors. If they hire or allow other instructors to work with them, it’s usually instructors they trained themselves so they know the standards being taught are theirs.

So, there’s the brain dump. You can find the hour minimums. Look a little harder. In the regs. Not websites. It’s all there. :)
 
Velocity173 said:
100K to be a flight instructor??? I’m in the wrong field.
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I was going to say the same thing, I know Google does skew things when it comes to politics and other stuff, but no idea why or where they are getting these numbers from.

image.png



For the OP, I'd figure 25-35k per year. And you'll be flying your arse off.

You can make more if you're doing specialty and or freelance work, but it takes time in the industry to get to that point.
 
I used to like @WannFly but he keeps beating me to the punch!

The seemingly well intentioned OP has gone from seeking cheap CFI's to desiring a hefty salary to be a CFI?

You know those school CFI's don't get all the money charged, right? Like less than half is reality.

I don't think FO's on regionals make the dollars of which you speak.
 
Good answers, and as I expected. Thanks guys!
 
Ravioli said:
I used to like @WannFly but he keeps beating me to the punch!

The seemingly well intentioned OP has gone from seeking cheap CFI's to desiring a hefty salary to be a CFI?

You know those school CFI's don't get all the money charged, right? Like less than half is reality.
Click to expand...
No I didn't. Once again putting words in my mouth.
 
Assuming you get your PPL around 50-70 hours, you’ll need 50 hours PIC XC and a minimum of 40 hours of simulated or actual instrument time. You need at least 250 hours total time for the commercial. After that, the CFI is mostly self study and is usually the cheapest rating. You’ll probably fly for about 10-20 hours training for the CFI. Plan on not making much as an instructor unless you have a specialty like tailwheel, sea plane, aerobatic, HP, turboprop, etc. 20-40K a year is about right if you are a plain CFI/II/MEI. Right now instructors are in high demand because most people just use it as a stepping stone for other Aviation careers. Once they hit ATP mins, they are usually gone. You won’t have a hard time finding a CFI job.
 
I'm sure google is lumping senior simulator instructors and check airmen at the airlines together with entry level CFI's at the local airport. Kind of skews the stats.
 
If I did the math right. For a CFI to make 100k a year. They need to get 54 hours a week at $35 hr which is a standard rate.
 
EchoKilo said:
As a 20-something who hasn't figured out what he wants to do with his life, I'm here to ask about aviation certifications and potential careers. As those of you who've read my other thread know, I plan on finishing my PPL this summer. After that I'm really tossing around the idea of going on to get my instrument, and eventually commercial, ratings. So my questions are these:

1) How many hours additionally is an instrument and commercial rating? I may be terrible at research, but I couldn't seem to pinpoint how many hours it is for these tickets. Essentially, what will I have to do to obtain it?

2) What does it take on top of a commercial rating to become a CFI?

3) Becoming a CFI is what I'm most interested in currently. I typed "how much does a flight instructor make" into google and got the following response:

"The median annual Flight Instructor salary is $99,103, as of January 30, 2018, with a range usually between $91,111-$111,575, however this can vary widely depending on a variety of factors."

Trying not to get too excited, I decided to ask actual pilots if this is the case? There's also other things to consider as well, like job security. How much demand will there be for this job in 20, 30, 40 years? Is becoming a CFI for a living a good idea? Is working for a nice flight school better than freelancing it?

Thanks for all answers and wisdom!
Click to expand...
If you're serious, then start reading the FARs and the AIM. All the answers are there. And you need to know them, or at least ba able to immediately turn to the right page as well as explain the details to a student.
 
Ravioli said:
I don't think FO's on regionals make the dollars of which you speak.
Click to expand...

Nope. There’s a few regionals where they claim to pay about $75K, but when you dig in they’re including the employer portion of health insurance, the employer match for the 401K, significant bonuses in the first year, and all sorts of other things that are not counted in salary negotiations in the private sector when a salary number is discussed. They’re things that come along with the salary.

It’s pretty interesting really to read their websites and see what hoops they’ve jumped through to say “total first year compensation is X” and then realize the salary is closer to $35,000 than $60 or $70 as they’ll tout on the web page.

With the “pilot shortage” some of them have raised the actual salaries, but none by very much.

Or as many watchers of the industry have put it, it’s not really a shortage of pilots, it’s a shortage of pay. All sorts of people would work their butts off to hit ATP minimums if the salary and not the “total compensation” were actually up there where the websites like to say the number is. They’d even take pay cuts to do it.

It’s a fascinating thing to watch. From a job that doesn’t pretend the company dollars to my benefits are part of my “salary”.

(Also is one of those things most of us know already, calculating up my “total compensation” is a MUCH bigger number than my salary. And I’m fully aware that it costs the company that much money per year to keep me around, so my output had better match. I have no problem understanding that. But I’d be mildly annoyed if they started speaking in those terms about my “total compensation”. It’s a given in the private sector that yes, you’re paying out money for my benefits... I’m not stupid.)
 
FWIW one should, make must, know the FARs not only as a CFI but as a Student Pilot also.
 
denverpilot said:
Nope. There’s a few regionals where they claim to pay about $75K, but when you dig in they’re including the employer portion of health insurance, the employer match for the 401K, significant bonuses in the first year, and all sorts of other things that are not counted in salary negotiations in the private sector when a salary number is discussed. They’re things that come along with the salary.

It’s pretty interesting really to read their websites and see what hoops they’ve jumped through to say “total first year compensation is X” and then realize the salary is closer to $35,000 than $60 or $70 as they’ll tout on the web page.

With the “pilot shortage” some of them have raised the actual salaries, but none by very much.

Or as many watchers of the industry have put it, it’s not really a shortage of pilots, it’s a shortage of pay. All sorts of people would work their butts off to hit ATP minimums if the salary and not the “total compensation” were actually up there where the websites like to say the number is. They’d even take pay cuts to do it.

It’s a fascinating thing to watch. From a job that doesn’t pretend the company dollars to my benefits are part of my “salary”.

(Also is one of those things most of us know already, calculating up my “total compensation” is a MUCH bigger number than my salary. And I’m fully aware that it costs the company that much money per year to keep me around, so my output had better match. I have no problem understanding that. But I’d be mildly annoyed if they started speaking in those terms about my “total compensation”. It’s a given in the private sector that yes, you’re paying out money for my benefits... I’m not stupid.)
Click to expand...

I read a comment from a Horizon FO on FB that said the same thing. They lump a bunch of stuff into that first year salary but in reality he said he makes 37K a year. No way I would accept that even with military retirement supplementing it.

We got a bunch of guys jumping ship from helos to the regionals. I guess they’re looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (Majors). That’s fine with me though. The more that leave, the more our pay goes up to keep people from leaving. :)
 
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EchoKilo said:
I typed "how much does a flight instructor make" into google and got the following response:

"The median annual Flight Instructor salary is $99,103, as of January 30, 2018, with a range usually between $91,111-$111,575, however this can vary widely depending on a variety of factors."
Click to expand...

But if you read further on that page you will also read this:
Instructs student pilots in flight procedures and techniques in ground school courses and flight training. Prepares lesson plans. Evaluates and monitors students performance. This position is typically is represented by a senior level pilot. The compensation data does NOT reflect salaries of flight instructors from smaller local flight schools who typically work on an hourly basis and consider the accumulation of airtime the highest priority in their respective careers.
Click to expand...

Think about this for a moment. The typical flight school charges $50 per hour for their CFI. Even if the CFI got all of this (which he does not) and if he billed 40 hours a week for 50 weeks a year (which would be a real shocker) he would make $100,000 even. So, the likelihood that a local CFI makes that kind of money is pretty much nil.
 
mscard88 said:
FWIW one should, make must, know the FARs not only as a CFI but as a Student Pilot also.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. Right now I'm just a kid sitting at home BSing on the internet and striking up conversation. When the time comes to get serious and know my stuff, I will buckle down. I'm a little bit older now than I was last time I flew regularly. I wanted my license so bad back then and my judgement was nowhere near where it needed to be and I would not put a pilot's license in my 20 year-old self's hands knowing what I know now. I just wanted to fly back then and I wanted my license. I used to text my instructor asking if we could fly that day and he'd say, "nope, wind is too high for the 150." And I'd be like, "Oh man, it's not that bad!" Amazing how just a little bit of life experience makes you realize that the adults weren't just a bunch of stupid party poopers when they were telling you stuff like you thought they were as a young'n (speaking for myself of course). Perhaps other young people are smarter and more level-headed than me. I'm trying to approach this with patience and reason.
 
Velocity173 said:
I read a comment from a Horizon FO on FB that said the same thing. They lump a bunch of stuff into that first year salary but in reality he said he makes 37K a year. No way I would accept that even with military retirement supplementing it.

We got a bunch of guys jumping ship from helos to the regionals. I guess they’re looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (Majors). That’s fine with me though. The more that leave, the more our pay goes up to keep people from leaving. :)
Click to expand...

Yeah Horizon hasn’t upped pay in a while from other places I read stuff about these companies. I feel for those pilots, they also fly in some seriously crappy weather. They were one of the first airlines to want HUDs in a large majority of their cockpits. Lots of approaches to minimums in the PNW. Soggy. They say you get used to it. Don’t currently know anyone working there.

That last part about people jumping ship, sadly, is the only economic motivation for changes in pay in any business, airline or any other. When you can’t hire or you’re losing people out the door at a good clip, you have to do something about it.

Another “capture the pilots” game is “flow”. In other words, a number of the regional have a limited number of guaranteed interview slots with their associates legacy carriers. Many pilots are playing the “flow” game in lieu of pay. They figure they’re high enough in seniority they’ll be up and out before the music quits and someone is left without a chair.

The regionals without either pay or flow right now are a bummer for anyone not planning on finishing their career at a regional. And some are. The long timer pay isn’t awful.

Everybody needs/wants different things of their job, so no judgements here. Just sharing what I’ve read.
 
It’s really about what you want. The regional pay is substantially better today than it was when I worked at republic. I might have stuck around the 121 gig had things been different 10 years ago. It is a work environment that definitely requires a certain frame of mind. Even 10 years ago it wasn’t bad it was a dead end but wasn’t that bad of a job. Today it’s probably more of a viable career since the retirements have finally started rolling at the majors. I haven’t regretted leaving but haven’t ruled out the possibility of going back either.
 
EchoKilo said:
As a 20-something who hasn't figured out what he wants to do with his life, I'm here to ask about aviation certifications and potential careers. As those of you who've read my other thread know, I plan on finishing my PPL this summer. After that I'm really tossing around the idea of going on to get my instrument, and eventually commercial, ratings. So my questions are these:

1) How many hours additionally is an instrument and commercial rating? I may be terrible at research, but I couldn't seem to pinpoint how many hours it is for these tickets. Essentially, what will I have to do to obtain it?

2) What does it take on top of a commercial rating to become a CFI?

3) Becoming a CFI is what I'm most interested in currently. I typed "how much does a flight instructor make" into google and got the following response:

"The median annual Flight Instructor salary is $99,103, as of January 30, 2018, with a range usually between $91,111-$111,575, however this can vary widely depending on a variety of factors."

Trying not to get too excited, I decided to ask actual pilots if this is the case? There's also other things to consider as well, like job security. How much demand will there be for this job in 20, 30, 40 years? Is becoming a CFI for a living a good idea? Is working for a nice flight school better than freelancing it?

Thanks for all answers and wisdom!
Click to expand...
What are you doing now? You have any degrees?
 
I used to instruct at a large school, and I was making no where near that!! In fact I think with maximum seniority and highest pay rate the instructors still aren't getting even close to that. Those salary figures are way off and I'm not sure where they got them. As others said search for open flight instructor positions and see what pay rate it says come with them, then do the math. I would say realistically on the TOP end its more like 40-50. Starting, no where near that, I was no where near that.

What does it take on top of a commercial rating? Well short answer it takes a CFI rating, and a CFII rating if you really want to be marketable, the requirements for receiving a CFI and CFII rating can easily be found online. but in short it requires more flight instruction, and more testing.

Do you want to CFI for your whole career? Or do you want to do something else with flying? That's an important question to answer before you press on.

As for how's the demand and job security. Right now there's a lot of demand, there would be more security working for a large school than freelancing as they can almost guarantee students, however who's to say what happens in the world and economy in the future that might totally change the outlook on aviation.

I really enjoyed being a CFI it was a great job, however my ultimate goal was always airlines, I was not looking at being an instructor as a whole career when i began doing it.
 
I made anywhere from $8,000 to $12,000 a year as a full time CFI-I. I think the biggest two week check I ever saw was $800.

I made $15 an hour with a max allowable of 20 hours a week. Which never happened once you factor in student no shows, weather, ground lessons, and MX issues.
 
denverpilot said:
Another “capture the pilots” game is “flow”. In other words, a number of the regional have a limited number of guaranteed interview slots with their associates legacy carriers. Many pilots are playing the “flow” game in lieu of pay. They figure they’re high enough in seniority they’ll be up and out before the music quits and someone is left without a chair.
Click to expand...

I just want to clarify something here, a flow is NOT an interview. A flow does not require an interview. There are some carriers that have preferential interview programs which is what you just described of guaranteed interviews in seniority order etc. but a flow is a job in seniority order if the parent company is hiring then x amount of people per class must come from your carrier, your seniority number comes up, off you go, no interview. There is a big difference between flow and SSP (selective screening process) and they are very different than a flow.

When i started at the regionals overall year 1 compensation is a lot different than it is now!!!
 
JustinD said:
I just want to clarify something here, a flow is NOT an interview. A flow does not require an interview. There are some carriers that have preferential interview programs which is what you just described of guaranteed interviews in seniority order etc. but a flow is a job in seniority order if the parent company is hiring then x amount of people per class must come from your carrier, your seniority number comes up, off you go, no interview. There is a big difference between flow and SSP (selective screening process) and they are very different than a flow.

When i started at the regionals overall year 1 compensation is a lot different than it is now!!!
Click to expand...

Yup. Still both are the same deal. All good until the music stops in the hiring pipelines. It looks like those will be moving for a while yet, though. And assuming one wants to leave the regional. Not everyone does.
 
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