NTSB Stats

Stephen Shore said:
I would be interested in seeing the fatality rate of motorcycles. That mode of transportation just seems to be by far the riskiest method of transportation. I have come upon several motorcycle accidents and it is really hard to have a "minor" one of those.
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In previous threads, it was described as being roughly the same as general aviation.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Motorcycle fatal rate is approx 7x automobile.
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Yes, but it goes waaay down if alcohol is not consumed, if the rider is trained, and if protective gear is worn. A rider who does those three things improves his odds considerably. Aviation safety isn't so easily improved.
 
FormerHangie said:
I'd guesstimate there are around 450,000 GA pilots, and in 2015 there were 229 fatal accidents. That's roughly one fatal accident per 2000 GA pilots. That's not encouraging.

Maybe the numbers will be slightly better for 2016, but they've been stuck in a range for the last few years.
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Just doesn't seem all that relevant - if I was interested, I might weed out the fatals from the ways I won't kill myself in GA, like running out of gas, continuing VFR into IMC, or spinning out of the base to final turn.

I imagine the "rate" would improve quite a bit in that case, for my personal odds. But safety isn't a primary objective for me. Flying is.

I'm not reckless, but mincing numbers or hand wringing over the entire spectrum of GA pilots, or the Feds bothering people, based on the lowest common denominator, isn't of much value really. . .
 
Half Fast said:
Yes, but it goes waaay down if alcohol is not consumed, if the rider is trained, and if protective gear is worn. A rider who does those three things improves his odds considerably. Aviation safety isn't so easily improved.
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I disagree. Most of the GA accidents that I've read reports on could easily have been avoided. That implies that a pilot who scrupulously follows the known safety rules can most definitely improve his or her personal odds.
 
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Sundancer said:
Just doesn't seem all that relevant - if I was interested, I might weed out the fatals from the ways I won't kill myself in GA, like running out of gas, continuing VFR into IMC, or spinning out of the base to final turn.

I imagine the "rate" would improve quite a bit in that case, for my personal odds. But safety isn't a primary objective for me. Flying is.

I'm not reckless, but mincing numbers or hand wringing over the entire spectrum of GA pilots, or the Feds bothering people, based on the lowest common denominator, isn't of much value really. . .
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The value in making ourselves aware of GA accident rates is that it helps motivate us to avoid becoming complacent about safety in our flying.
 
Stephen Shore said:
Many years ago l drive my wife's Suburban one day and asked her why the hood had a huge scratch across the top of it. She hesitated and one of the kids shouted out that the crossbar came down on the Suburban as she tried to outrun it coming down.
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At least she didn't do this:
:)
 
Palmpilot said:
The value in making ourselves aware of GA accident rates is that it helps motivate us to avoid becoming complacent about safety in our flying.
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I'm not seeing that. Knowing the rates doesn't affect my propensity to become complacent, or not. The rates seem useless, for the most part - knowing the causes may be of some value, if you would otherwise fly your tanks dry, or push into IMC without an IR, or horse a turn with rudder at low altitude. It is probably good to know where the most frequent dangers lie. . .

But I'm not convinced that investing a lot more in reducing the accident rate is worthy - I suspect doing so would exponentially increase hassle, cost, and so reduce the joy of flying. Most of us past the solo stage know what the real dangers are, and if some of us accept taking those risks, so be it.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I read where around 10% of fatal air crashes are also believed to be suicide.
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There are many ntsb reports that cite pilot suicide.

I searched google with the phrase
suicide pilot site:ntsb.gov

Lots of reports. I read one that said the pilot’s wife announced she wanted a divorce, and he then went to the airport, took off, and crashed his turbo Arrow into terrain a few miles away. It made me so sad I quit reading any more.
 
Stephen Shore said:
I would be interested in seeing the fatality rate of motorcycles. That mode of transportation just seems to be by far the riskiest method of transportation.
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I looked into this a couple of years ago, reading the most authoritative reports I could find.

Fatality rates per 100k miles are higher for motorcycles than general aviation, but the difference almost vanishes if you exclude three of the biggest risk factors for bikes: drunk, no license, and no helmet.

I always think about that, when considering giving a ride on the plane: it might seem safer than a ride on my bike, but it’s not.

Flying small planes is simply a dangerous mode of transport.
 
Sundancer said:
Just doesn't seem all that relevant - if I was interested, I might weed out the fatals from the ways I won't kill myself in GA, like running out of gas, continuing VFR into IMC, or spinning out of the base to final turn.
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Do you think that the pilots that died from these causes thought themselves the kind of pilot that would run out of gas, or continue that VFR flight just a tad too long, or who would spin in the pattern?

Yes, I would remove myself from the class of intoxicated pilots that die in accidents, let’s say. But those other things have an insidious element to them. Yes, we can all plan and train in such a way so as to to minimize those risks. But these things will continue to kill pilots who, before that fatal day, like you would have sworn that could never happen to them.
 
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NoHeat said:
I looked into this a couple of years ago, reading the most authoritative reports I could find.

Fatality rates per 100k miles are higher for motorcycles than general aviation, but the difference almost vanishes if you exclude three of the biggest risk factors for bikes: drunk, no license, and no helmet.

I always think about that, when considering giving a ride on the plane: it might seem safer than a ride on my bike, but it’s not.

Flying small planes is simply a dangerous mode of transport.
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Any comparison of GA to other modes of transit is thrown off by poor data regarding hours flown and suspect assumptions about speed. Vehicle stats are measured in miles, and we have odometers, so accident rates are easy. We simply have no idea what GA miles flown are, and the assumptions you make to try to get there cause the stats to turn to mush in a hurry. I tried diligently the 6 years I was doing Aviation Safety magazine, and none of the methods I found nor invented passed my personal sniff test.
 
Half Fast said:
Yes, but it goes waaay down if alcohol is not consumed, if the rider is trained, and if protective gear is worn. A rider who does those three things improves his odds considerably. Aviation safety isn't so easily improved.
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Take out similar behaviors in aviation to improve it: aeromedical factors, training (currency; no VFR flight into IMC), bad weather, and heck even a chute (vs helmet/protective gear). I thought something like 2/3 of accidents were caused by weather and VFR into IMC?

It's all apples to oranges comparison at best anyway, no? But fun to discuss.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Take out similar behaviors in aviation to improve it: aeromedical factors, training (currency; no VFR flight into IMC), bad weather, and heck even a chute (vs helmet/protective gear). I thought something like 2/3 of accidents were caused by weather and VFR into IMC?

It's all apples to oranges comparison at best anyway, no? But fun to discuss.
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But those things aren't nearly as simple as taking a 2 day license class, putting on a helmet and jacket, and not taking a drink. Those three things make a bike almost as safe as a car.
 
Stephen Shore said:
The train "trespassing" thing is obviously railroad crossing accidents.
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That accounts for many of them, but . . . When I lived in WV (moved back South in 2014), we lost one hughnschool student just about every year, walking down the tracks as a shortcut going home. Ear buds blocked out the train's horn . . . One year was safe, no dead kids, but the next year there were two abiut a month apart . . . . Don't mess with trains, they never lose . . . .
 
Hank S said:
That accounts for many of them, but . . . When I lived in WV (moved back South in 2014), we lost one hughnschool student just about every year, walking down the tracks as a shortcut going home. Ear buds blocked out the train's horn . . . One year was safe, no dead kids, but the next year there were two abiut a month apart . . . . Don't mess with trains, they never lose . . . .
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Hank,
Writing this from the perspective of one who went to high school in the late fifties and my familiarity with railroads.

Other than the stresses associated with being a teen these days (which are a lot different than back when) and feeling the need to not be left out of the group there are many reasons for the young to commit suicide by train [in particular] given that other means may not be as quick, more painful, or less sure. A 400,000 pound or more locomotive is a quick and assured death should one be between the rails when the train is traveling forty MPH or more.

Some inadvertently get hit by trains because of the earbuds but, (and I'm sure @tawood and other LEO's may have some experience dealing with this) is the prevalence of smart phones most teens now have and the instant communication they provide culpable? Kids have used them to taunt each other to the point they feel like they are useless and unwanted and that is what convinces them suicide is the way out. For lack of a better word, teens are still impressionable. I know that in my formative years I was but I never felt the need to bend to meet the norms of the day. I pretty much walked to my own drummer and not wishing or wanting to be part of the clique in high school. They went their way and I went mine. I find it sad our culture has descended into making people feel they are of no worth to society unless they are conformists to conventions of the day.

I have been a rail fan for several decades and have contacts at both railroads near me. They fill me in on the gory details and the fact that train crews have to live with the fact they couldn't stop their train in time to spare the life of a suicidal teen or adult. Their deaths are usually investigated both by railroad police and the Sheriff's office or local police. Sometimes the information found on those kid's smart phones leads the cops directly to the reason for them doing so.

Said with respect for both the deceased and the train crews who will remember the incident for the rest of their lives.
 
Looks to me like she got clobbered by the train coming the other way. Bet she didn’t think to look.
 
She was looking at the one she was racing.

Oh well, like they say in NASCAR, that's racing! :popcorn:
 
deonb said:
More people died from trespassing on railroads than from all of aviation.

That’s a weird one.
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Dollars to doughnuts, a bunch of those were suicides. The rest were likely people doing stupid stuff near tracks or on bridges.
<edit> sorry, late to this party...
 
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Bill Jennings said:
Death by train seems like a gruesome way to go.
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Years ago when I worked in a hospital lab there was a woman who drove to a rail crossing but got there as the train was rolling by so she drove to another crossing, got out, and stood in the middle of the tracks. The train hit her, knocked her down between the rails, then never touched her again. She was brought into the ER alive but that one hit kinda messed up her innards so she died later that night. I had to draw blood from her and was amazed at how little she appeared to be damaged. OTOH if she'd been knocked perpendicular to the tracks... FWIW, I don't think she was in any pain.
 
Norman said:
Hank,
Writing this from the perspective of one who went to high school in the late fifties and my familiarity with railroads.

Other than the stresses associated with being a teen these days (which are a lot different than back when) and feeling the need to not be left out of the group there are many reasons for the young to commit suicide by train [in particular] given that other means may not be as quick, more painful, or less sure. A 400,000 pound or more locomotive is a quick and assured death should one be between the rails when the train is traveling forty MPH or more.

Some inadvertently get hit by trains because of the earbuds but, (and I'm sure @tawood and other LEO's may have some experience dealing with this) is the prevalence of smart phones most teens now have and the instant communication they provide culpable? Kids have used them to taunt each other to the point they feel like they are useless and unwanted and that is what convinces them suicide is the way out. For lack of a better word, teens are still impressionable. I know that in my formative years I was but I never felt the need to bend to meet the norms of the day. I pretty much walked to my own drummer and not wishing or wanting to be part of the clique in high school. They went their way and I went mine. I find it sad our culture has descended into making people feel they are of no worth to society unless they are conformists to conventions of the day.

I have been a rail fan for several decades and have contacts at both railroads near me. They fill me in on the gory details and the fact that train crews have to live with the fact they couldn't stop their train in time to spare the life of a suicidal teen or adult. Their deaths are usually investigated both by railroad police and the Sheriff's office or local police. Sometimes the information found on those kid's smart phones leads the cops directly to the reason for them doing so.

Said with respect for both the deceased and the train crews who will remember the incident for the rest of their lives.
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I started my career (first 3 Years actually) working for the grand trunk railroad police. I’ve been to literally hundreds of pedestrian/train or car/train accidents. ALWAYS very messy...and it often amazed me that people wouldn’t get out of the way.
 
FastEddieB said:
Do you think that the pilots that died from these causes thought themselves the kind of pilot that would run out of gas, or continue that VFR flight just a tad too long, or who would spin in the pattern?

Yes, I would remove myself from the class of intoxicated pilots that die in accidents, let’s say. But those other things have an insidious element to them. Yes, we can all plan and train in such a way so as to to minimize those risks. But these things will continue to kill pilots who, before that fatal day, like you would have sworn that could never happen to them.
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No, I don't think that; truly, I don't have any idea how they regarded themselves as pilots. And it's not clear how that's relevant to the discussion? I've paid attention, and it seems to me that avoiding these particular risks improves your my survival chances in GA; beyond that, I do not see the value in spending a lot of $$$ and effort in a big push to "do something" about GA's accident propensity. At some point, the next incremental improvement comes at exponential cost.

GA can be safer, for sure; I just don't think it's worth the additional effort to get "there", wherever "there" is; for those who want to be "safer", there is more than enough info and data out there to do so. For me, most of it isn't all that relevant, and pressing it constantly sucks some of the joy from flying. I don't disparage or mock the uber-safety folks; it's a personal decision, and risk tolerance varies for all of us. Just saying I get enough value paying attention to these few items for myself, and don;t think the hand-wringing over the current "rate" is of real value.
 
Sundancer said:
But I'm not convinced that investing a lot more in reducing the accident rate is worthy - I suspect doing so would exponentially increase hassle, cost, and so reduce the joy of flying. Most of us past the solo stage know what the real dangers are, and if some of us accept taking those risks, so be it.
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I'm not advocating more spending, nor more government mandates, if that's what you're implying.
 
The train "trespassing" thing is obviously railroad crossing accidents.
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Not necessarily. Usually standing on the road isn't going to be trespassing just a failure to observe the crossing signals.

The trespassing is usually people walking down the tracks (or on train bridges/trestles). A lot of times photography is involved.

In any event it's gross stupidity on those killed and not the fault of the railroad.

 
flyingron said:
Not necessarily. Usually standing on the road isn't going to be trespassing just a failure to observe the crossing signals.

The trespassing is usually people walking down the tracks (or on train bridges/trestles). A lot of times photography is involved.

In any event it's gross stupidity on those killed and not the fault of the railroad.

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Ron,

You are correct. There is a substantial difference between some fool who thinks he can beat the train and those who willingly trespass and put themselves in harm's way.



Railroaders have the cliche "Locomotive wins all ties". A quite appropriate saying given the truth behind it.
 
By the way, the suit mentioned above by the children's grandmother was a pretty big loser. She got nothing for the death of the driving daughter. The railroad paid out $10,000 for each of the surviving. Apparently, the kids were getting Medicaid payments and after the lawyers got their third, most of what's left went back to the government.

From GoogleMaps it appears that CSX now has crossing arms on that intersection.
 
According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics in 2015 there were 8,600,936 registered Motorcycles in the U.S. If the number of motorcycles held about the same, and there were 5,286 fatal accidents in 2016, then around .0614% of registered motorcycles were involved in a fatal accident so less tan 1%.
 
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