Not so smart A&P IA
- Thread starter NineThreeKilo
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I don't see this in any other service industry. During the contraction of the airlines, Pan Am stood for the most successful in the industry. Price means something and good shops often charge more for the same jobs as fair, and poor shops. It stands to reason that in a financial retrenchment, those shops that charge more will have similar, or higher failure rates than bad shops.
As a simile, I would say that rats die on a sinking ship, but so do some of the human pax.
Tom-D
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I see as the method the shop extracts the money, or IOWs customer relations.
Ted
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A lot of people can't see more than 2 feet in front of their faces. This point is important. I can screw you now and get money, but then you'll tell your friends not to use me for my services. Or I can lose money on a deal with you now, and then make more money later because you come back, and tell your friends that I did right by you. Some people will take the former over the latter (bird in the hand vs. two in the bush), and not realize that there's actually 5+ birds in the bush. Alternately, they'll figure you weren't coming back anyway, and not care.
There are also some shop owners who are great mechanics and terrible businessmen. As such, they see something broken and think "Oh, that's broken. I should fix it!" and not realize that some of us don't want that thing fixed, because:
a) It's not as broken as I want it to be prior to replacement
b) I have another shop that I use for those broken items
c) I have a limited amount of time, and you need to be focusing on important things like the autopilot and heater, not the brakes
d) I have a limited amount of money, and only budgeted for the allotted repairs
I don't think any shop out there was honestly trying to screw me, but through some form of either misunderstanding or willful ignorance to my requests, decided to do work that wasn't what I asked for. I will also say in all cases I ended up paying less than the advertised rate by some reasonable amount (sometimes after my complaining, sometimes they just outright offered it, sometimes both).
I've also left shops with my plane for an allotted period of time when I gave them a laundry list of items, and come back to find they haven't touched the thing, after being assured the list would be complete. When the shops then tried to charge me for holding onto the plane, I told them where they could stick the bill, and that they should be paying me for what it cost me to get the plane to them and then back to my base.
This is also the danger with letting a shop you don't know well touch your plane. Business relationships are developed over time, and usually aren't perfect from day one.
wsuffa
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Not necessarily true. There are still plenty of "woodchucks" in our area that prey on the elderly for tree work and yard work (especially after storms). Even the county police have not been able to put an end to them.
Agree with Ted - avionics shops tend to be the worst in a lot of ways. I have yet to have what I'd consider to be a "great" experience with an avionics shop. Even on a task as simple as a transponder/static cert.
I should also note that this kind of issue can arise even with a highly recommended shop. I had one "rebuild" a cylinder - it ended up costing twice the price of getting an off-the-shelf overhauled cylinder. Same shop also turned the plane back over to me with the landing light wires shorted (instead of reconnecting the landing light, they connected the wires to each other). This was a highly recommended local shop.
My best experiences were with an individual that operated a small two-person shop out of his hangar. Responsive, experienced with the make/model, recommended by another owner who kept his plane on the field.
Ted
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Fortunately they've been able to do a pitot-stat/transponder easily enough. It's just on other things that's been more challenging.
And to be fair, I think there are also a lot of bad avionics shops around. Which means if you take it to a good avionics shop, they have a lot of work they need to fix to make what should be a simple installation work properly. Electronics are a pain.
wsuffa
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The trick is finding the good shops.
Electronics SHOULD be easier than aerodynamics. as determined by an ee....
wabower
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I continually remind our staff that we should place a folding chair with a folded WSJ and coffee in front of each plane in the shop and work on them as though the owner were sitting in the chair watching the progress and the process. If it really happened this way, MX would show light-years improvement over-night. Owners should drop by the shop at least once every day to check progress. If none is apparent, have the meeting early rather than late. If they "just haven't had time to get to it because . . . " get it out quickly so somebody who does have time can fix it.
Ted
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Amen!
That's the theory, but the reality is that the electrical systems are the most complex parts of our planes. Mechanically, they're as simple as dirt. There's not much to them. Even though the electrical systems aren't terribly complex, their wiring is typically done piecemeal and hacked up over the decades. So, it is difficult. It took me about 30 minutes to find a relay in the 310 yesterday because it was an aftermarket unit. Keep on turning it on and off and I finally found the stupid thing.
The daily checks can be difficult (especially with a 6-week-old at home), but agreed that frequent drop-bys are important. If the shop proves they can't get to it quickly, one must question whether a different shop would be better.
schmookeeg
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Huh? I've represented my CA C-Corp both as plaintiff (numerous times) and defendant (once) in Small Claims. Attorneys are not allowed there, it's sort of the point of small claims.
I sign a form for the court which authorizes me to represent the corporation before proceedings. If I were not an officer of the corp, I would need to get that form signed by one before the trial could take place.
==
That said, I'm continually amazed at how often maintenance shops treat their customers like rubes. I hope I never catch our guys doing that.
Tom-D
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I have found that the bill on the aircraft is usually smaller than the lawyer's bill, so it is easier to simply slap a lien on it and tell the owner to go away.
then spread the word on him, the IA community is a small one, **** me off and there will be 20 A&P-IAs get the word by night fall.
I should start a trunkers union. **** us off then you can go to the FBOs and really get screwed.
kmead
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In all of my years of owning my own maintenance shop I only had to file one mechanics lien. The owner had been properly quoted and approved the repairs. I always trusted my customers to pay. This owner said, I'll send you a check as soon as I get back to the east coast. Clear up until the deadline to file in KS he wouldn't answer phone calls and e-mails. I could see him flying on Flightaware. I got my payment 3 days after filing. With the payment he said he was in Europe and that was his friend fling the plane.
I always quoted the jobs, there were very few time and material jobs done. You should be able to expect that from a shop that specializes in one type, as an expert you can anticipate most problems. One of my old West coast employers felt that everything should be open ended and that an estimate meant nothing. It was always about the P&L statement. Everybody hated this company and as the service manager I couldn't do much to win over the area people.
I always quoted the jobs, there were very few time and material jobs done. You should be able to expect that from a shop that specializes in one type, as an expert you can anticipate most problems. One of my old West coast employers felt that everything should be open ended and that an estimate meant nothing. It was always about the P&L statement. Everybody hated this company and as the service manager I couldn't do much to win over the area people.
NineThreeKilo
Ejection Handle Pulled
Like I said, I'll pay for what I agreed to have done on the plane.
However if your lien scenario is how it goes down when I pick the plane up, he wont get a dime out of me (as Ill have to give his money to the lawyers) and best of luck proving anything without my signature on anything, or a single quote or email..
As a professional aviator, should I find out I missed out on a job or was otherwise effected by some slanderious scamming AP, the last thing he'll have to worry about is my lawyer.
It aint hard to just be upfront with folks and give them a fair shake, I dont understand how or why this shop tried to pull this chit with me!
I just hope that he is a reasonable man, as reasonable men can reach reasonable agreements, I pay for what I agreed to and we both go on with our lives.
I will tell you I will NEVER do a non-owner assisted annual again!
Tom-D
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If I can help, make an appointment some time next year.
wabower
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Human nature is sometimes difficult to figure out. Here's the test. Let's say you buy an airplane without a pre-buy because it looks really good, has a new interior and is a hell of a deal. The buyer has disclosed that it "needs a little work" so you take it to a shop that is well-known as a specialist in the type in order to get these minor repairs corrected before you start flying it.
The shop performs the inspection as requested and prepares the squawk list. The list is both extensive and expensive, and the shop owner confides that you would be better off by junking the plane you just bought and finding a better one than continuing to pay him to do all the work necessary to get your cream-puff back in airworthy condition.
Would you do it, or would you tell him to fix it?
We've had three such jobs show up this year. Guess how many followed the shop's advice?
The shop performs the inspection as requested and prepares the squawk list. The list is both extensive and expensive, and the shop owner confides that you would be better off by junking the plane you just bought and finding a better one than continuing to pay him to do all the work necessary to get your cream-puff back in airworthy condition.
Would you do it, or would you tell him to fix it?
We've had three such jobs show up this year. Guess how many followed the shop's advice?
NineThreeKilo
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Well I'm obviously not going to use them again!
And I will put my feelers out there to see if this guy is slandering me, I really hope this doesnt go even further south then it already is, I had not thought of the slander aspect..
As for the lien thing, dont see they have a leg to stand on in this state.
BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODESECTION 9790-9798.4 said:
and despite giving them my email address, phone number, address, asking for a estimate, tally of costs, idea of what its going to put me out, I never got a estimate before they did all this unauthroized work, LET ALONE signed any estimate or any copy of a certified letter, sent email or anything else proving they gave me a estimate.
All this being said, I am still willing to pay them for the work we did verbally agree to.
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Tom-D
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That's the sticky part, prove what was agreed to.
Just remember we A&P-IAs are a tight group we talk to each other and your reputation as an owner is at stake.
We have the right to refuse service to any one for any reason.
wabower
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Tom-D
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Yer right,, fortunately I have all the work I want.
Kinda premature with that conclusion Tom.......
Let's wait till this gets to the talking point between the owner and the shop...
wabower
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NineThreeKilo
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I think it's the shop that need to prove I authorized repairs.
Also isn't there some FAR about doing work on a plane without making logbook entries?
Also isn't there some FAR about doing work on a plane without making logbook entries?
David
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Why not? I've been through 8 or 9 annuals now on three different planes and two different shops. Both shops are very small and they both do excellent work. I've never had a problem. Why not pick a good shop and stick with them?
Tom-D
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Tom-D
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If it isn't in the log it didn't happen.
If it isn't returned to service it isn't airworthy, you want airworthy, pay up.
denverpilot
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Many (good) shops are busy cranking through the work and have a good front office that handles keeping owners updated, such that if the owner really does stop by, they really don't need or want you out in the hangar getting in the way.
I don't mind THAT type of service, really. It's more about the communication and customer service, than me looking over anyone's shoulder.
Much of that could be automated with the right software. Parking a cart with a pile of paperwork next to every airplane is pretty 1960s... Tracking work in near real-time with a laptop on the same cart, would be far more useful in that it could tie into a web login for the owner to peek at, prices updated in real-time, etc.
That software done right, wouldn't be cheap though.
I'd hesitate but probably agree that a webcam always on in the shop that owners could peek in on, would probably have the same effect as the empty chair... If we're going for the "Big Brother is watching" feel.
The ability to take an airplane to an out of town shop and show them online MX records would be wicked cool too. If the industry were growing still, this type of centralized MX software with customer interfaces would be a nice side-business for a person to start developing.
But as we sit today, paper is King. And mechanics have to decide if they're going to work on airplanes or spend all day calling owners in smaller shops. It's a Catch-22 for them.
NineThreeKilo
Ejection Handle Pulled
I don't pay blackmail, period.
If a shop wants to get paid follow the law, both the written and the common sense law of providing a estimate, it ain't rocket science.
I'll let everyone know how it turns out.
Tom-D
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neither is getting a written work order, and a weekly follow up on progress.
Bringing me the aircraft and telling me to do an annual, is the same as giving carte blanche on the inspection and repairs of the aircraft.
But as you said you told the A&P some thing else? prove what was said.
NineThreeKilo
Ejection Handle Pulled
It was written on the "work order" by me, "Call for approval before any work".
AND even if I just said do whatever is needed to make it airworthy (which I didn't!), it is STILL the shops responsibility to ensure they comply with state LAW, no estimate... your f'd
As a A&P I'm sure you know that a annual INSPECTION does NOT involve repairing ANYTHING, it's a INSPECTION, it produces a sheet of repairs (some airworthy items, some not).
If this goes south, they would be trying to get money out of me, they would have to ask the court or county clerk to file papers, hence it's THEIR burden to prove their case, and in this state they are COOKED if they don't provide a estimate. Guessing law makers were sick of hearing about mechanics playing these games.
AND even if I just said do whatever is needed to make it airworthy (which I didn't!), it is STILL the shops responsibility to ensure they comply with state LAW, no estimate... your f'd
As a A&P I'm sure you know that a annual INSPECTION does NOT involve repairing ANYTHING, it's a INSPECTION, it produces a sheet of repairs (some airworthy items, some not).
If this goes south, they would be trying to get money out of me, they would have to ask the court or county clerk to file papers, hence it's THEIR burden to prove their case, and in this state they are COOKED if they don't provide a estimate. Guessing law makers were sick of hearing about mechanics playing these games.
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Tom-D
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If you have a copy of that Work order you may have a case.
Are you saying the shop can throw out the work order and if the owner didn't have a copy, they can screw him royally ?
Tom-D
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Now,,,,,,, would I say that?Are you saying the shop can throw out the work order and if the owner didn't have a copy, they can screw him royally ?
schmookeeg
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We've been experimenting with this exact thing for about 2 years, in various forms. We shut it completely off recently and I continue to work on it in private. The calls asking "why did you only work on my plane for 0/4/8 hours today? Don't you have 4 people working on the shop floor??" got a bit old. We also had a customer freak out that his billing info was on the internet, even though we don't bill from our site, run CC's manually, etc -- we couldn't convince this individual that a shower of nigerian princes was not about to take his identity on account of our showing him realtime status on an oil change.
I still think this is the correct approach, but there needs to be a pretty shocking "expectations management" session as a prerequisite to us turning those features on again. There seems to be this concept that even if we have 8 planes in the hangar, that we are 100% working on that customer's plane 100% of the time. We're good at scheduling and time management, but we're not that good.
We'll get it.
NineThreeKilo
Ejection Handle Pulled
Again, I dont need to prove anything, if they cant produce a work order, then who says they didnt steal it and put it in their hangar???
It's my plane, thats obvious and easily provable.
If they want to try to put a lien on my plane or sue me THEY need to PROVE THEIR CASE!
What you are saying is if I were to try to put a lien on your plane, say I claim I rebuilt the left aileron... YOU would need to prove that I didnt???
Quite the other way around, if I wanted to put a lein on your plane I would have to PROVE that I did, infact, work on your plane.
Heck, I thought I even posted the pertaining state law on this page of the thread
Tom-D
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I don't know how to make my point any more clear than I already have. So I'll wait until you post the out come.Again, I dont need to prove anything, if they cant produce a work order, then who says they didnt steal it and put it in their hangar???
It's my plane, thats obvious and easily provable.
If they want to try to put a lien on my plane or sue me THEY need to PROVE THEIR CASE!
What you are saying is if I were to try to put a lien on your plane, say I claim I rebuilt the left aileron... YOU would need to prove that I didnt???
Quite the other way around, if I wanted to put a lein on your plane I would have to PROVE that I did, infact, work on your plane.
Heck, I thought I even posted the pertaining state law on this page of the thread
Believe me, you and I would have never been in this pizzing contest, I would have completed the work as agreed, and if you had not contacted me within a certain period, I would have signed the aircraft off as unairworthy with a list of discrepancies stuck in the log book, then I would have pushed it out on the general aviation ramp, tied it down locked it up and kept the keys until you came looking for them.
Then we would have a face to face conversation about how to pay the bill. If for some reason you decided not to pay the bill I would simply tell you the small print at the bottom of the work order has the statement that I can keep your logs until payment is made. and you signed it.
I would then give the whole ball of wax to the family councilor, and you could talk to him after that.
NineThreeKilo
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As agreed, yea thats what Im saying, like agreed in a estimate right???
No estimate = no agreement, how would one know what they are agreeing to without it right?
Tom-D
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What will you do when you find that the repairs they did are what was required to be safe to fly home, and cheaper than any other facility in the area?
Jim_R
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That seems awfully extreme. Why wouldn't you just call him and tell him you completed the work?