Not so smart A&P IA

[NineThreeKilo]

Wanted everyones thoughts on this.

I recenty put my plane into annual at a shop I hadent used much, this is also the first annual that I have not assisted in, due to crazy scheduling on my part.

After the plane is dropped off I sign the work order, writing across the work order "CALL FOR AUTHORIZATION BEFORE ANY REPAIRS".

I get a call that a few things need to be done, price is a little high (surprise with me not being there) BUT OK. Shop tells me that they need to look at some fabric stuff to mend a few areas, I told the shop, probably about 10 times, that the plane is going to be getting a new fabric job in a few months anyway, so call me back when you know what I'm looking at price wise. If the work is much money give me the snag sheet and I'll just ferry permit her back to my current airport and dig into the restoration. The plane could EASILY get a ferry permit BTW. I made it clear I didn't want to spend any significant money on the fabric, as it would be getting torn off in a few months anyway.

After checking in a few times to get no real updates, a few weeks pass and I get a phone call, "your plane is done" WTF? guess the guy just signed off on the fabric?

Call the shop and they went ahead WITHOUT MY CONSENT and did a good bit of work on the plane, doubling the authorized estimate!!

I know a shop can't just preform unauthroized work, I know CA has some stiff laws about this, at least in the auto industry.

Thoughts?

 

[N801BH]

.....I get a call that a few things need to be done, price is a little high (surprise with me not being there) BUT OK. ..............


Call the shop and they went ahead WITHOUT MY CONSENT and did a good bit of work on the plane, doubling the authorized estimate!!

I know you can't preform unauthroized work, I know CA has some stiff laws about this, at least in the auto industry.

Thoughts?

My gut feeling they will say."they called you and you said go ahead with the work".... it will turn into a he said /he said.......

I would have a talk with them, but chances are you are gonna get screwed.. Take some KY with ya.

 

[Tom-D]

As this industry gets smaller and smaller the maintenance shops will be doing this sort of thing more and more to get enough money to stay in business.

I'm wondering why they simply didn't rip all the fabric off and then call you with a bill to replace it.

 

[ejensen]

Is fabric an airworthiness item? I mean interior fabric.

 

[Tom-D]

Is fabric an airworthiness item? I mean interior fabric.

not usually.

 

[Geico266]

Now that they repaired it maybe you can put off restoration for a few years?

 

[gismo]

My gut feeling they will say."they called you and you said go ahead with the work".... it will turn into a he said /he said.......

I would have a talk with them, but chances are you are gonna get screwed.. Take some KY with ya.

While it's true an owner would have more legal cred if they signed the work order with "No repairs without further written authorization" instead of the requirement to call first, I'd expect you'd have some success in conciliation court on something like this. I'd start out refusing to pay for anything beyond the original inspection estimate and eventually agree to cover what additional work you'd have been willing to pay for (e.g. minor fabric repairs).

 

[wabower]

Not if owners are smart enough to require emails or other written authorization for each line item of proposed repairs. We've been doing it for a number of years.

As this industry gets smaller and smaller the maintenance shops will be doing this sort of thing more and more to get enough money to stay in business.

I'm wondering why they simply didn't rip all the fabric off and then call you with a bill to replace it.

 

[Marauder]

Wanted everyones thoughts on this.

I recenty put my plane into annual at a shop I hadent used much, this is also the first annual that I have not assisted in, due to crazy scheduling on my part.

After the plane is dropped off I sign the work order, writing across the work order "CALL FOR AUTHORIZATION BEFORE ANY REPAIRS".

I get a call that a few things need to be done, price is a little high (surprise with me not being there) BUT OK. Shop tells me that they need to look at some fabric stuff to mend a few areas, I told the shop, probably about 10 times, that the plane is going to be getting a new fabric job in a few months anyway, so call me back when you know what I'm looking at price wise. If the work is much money give me the snag sheet and I'll just ferry permit her back to my current airport and dig into the restoration. The plane could EASILY get a ferry permit BTW. I made it clear I didn't want to spend any significant money on the fabric, as it would be getting torn off in a few months anyway.

After checking in a few times to get no real updates, a few weeks pass and I get a phone call, "your plane is done" WTF? guess the guy just signed off on the fabric?

Call the shop and they went ahead WITHOUT MY CONSENT and did a good bit of work on the plane, doubling the authorized estimate!!

I know a shop can't just preform unauthroized work, I know CA has some stiff laws about this, at least in the auto industry.

Thoughts?

Wow! Does this sound familiar! The problem with shops that operate this way is that they get a lot of 1 time customers. And depending on what state you are in, there may recourse but often these situations get tied up in small claims court. I got burned early in my 21 year ownership of my Mooney and I swore I would not let it happen again. My personal pet peeve is when dealing with shops that don't know the difference between a binding quote and an estimate. I refuse to work under an estimate. Just like you experienced, there is no binding agreement in place, only an instruction not to proceed without authorization. They estimate the work and surprise, surprise, they almost always need more than the estimate. If you did authorize the work, it should be in writing and an agreement on what was going to be done and the cost for it, i.e. a quote.

Even working under a quote is no guarantee either. Sometimes I get the "we didn't expect this" statement and I point out that I clearly made it clear in writing that I was more than willing to have them evaluate the plane before having them provide a quote. I have found that the reputable shops understand this and will often build in safety nets to protect themselves (higher price). That is why I spend a lot of time talking with pilots who have used a shop I was considering. I wish there was an easy answer to your problem. If what you have communicated to them about prior authorization is in writing, you may be able to appeal to their logic before proceeding with alternatives.

 

[CMTowner]

I hope that you are able to get somewhere with them. It is sad that they just went ahead with the work and expect you to foot the bill. I feel like they took huge advantage of you, and they have a feeling you'll probably pay and never be back. A **** poor way to run a business if you ask me, of course that is just my opinion.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

The unfortunate issue for them is they went above and well beyond the budget, something they would have known if they followed the work order, stating to get confirmation prior to any work.

The budget is a hard number, they are trying to suck water out of a rock

I think we have some lawyers on the board, I believe in CA they have to provide a written estimate first by law anyway (auto industry), I think if this went to court that law would carry over??

My understanding is they have no right to hold the aircraft and logs, I'll try to settle with them for the amount that was authorized, however I can not pay for UNauthorized work for finical reasons, as well as ethical reasons.

 

[wabower]

While the budget may be a hard number in your mind, the shop apparently (1) didn't view it that way, or (2) suffered an internal lack of communication between the office and the shop floor or (3) thought you would have wanted it done or (4) just thought they could get away with it and you would pay rather than going through all the delays and potential problems, including a mechanic's lien.

Without defending your shop or becoming involved in the "who shot John" that is likely to ensue, the single-biggest problem that I see on an almost weekly basis is the "sticker-shock" by which the final invoice exceeds the customer's expectation.

This problem exists even though in theory it shouldn't. Our policy is to provide line-item estimates of time and material on each work order, provide written notice of changes and additional problems discovered during trouble-shooting.

So if we do all that stuff, how could these problems arise on a continuing basis? What answers can we provide to a customer who asks "why so much?

1. The software won't do it. It's an incredibly capable package that does almost everything we want, but doesn't include a sub-routine for this purpose. We've been working with the vendor as well as outside sources to develop a "re-calc" function that allows us to update the original estimate by the costs of additional post-estimate repairs discovered so the customer can see the most-recent total after each change, but don't have it yet.

We could update and forward the entire work order, but the customers don't particularly like all that paperwork, so we need an updated one-two page summary to allow them see the impact of the changes and digest the turd sandwich maintenance cost in smaller bites rather than on one big plate at the end.

We have now concluded that the vendor doesn't think it's a priority and are working with some outsiders to develop an excel template and macros to provide this tool in a form that can easily be transmitted to customers.

2. We get busy or lazy or both. If a gear-box or motor fails to operate properly during an inspection, we will advise the customer and get authorization to repair or replace. After running all the traps and obtaining the best price, we may order the part and forget to mention the final cost to the customer because he has already been advised and knows the part is necessary for return to service.

Or the guy in the shop may just skip the notification step when he knows the customer wants everything on his airplane to work and would approve the cost anyway. It's not good business and the shop owner raises hell with the shop guy who does it, but it still happens from time to time. There's nothing crooked or underhanded about it, it's just a sloppy way to do business.

3. Other stuff adds up. Each work-order will include items that are not disclosed to the aircraft owner in advance but not specifically discussed with him as the job moves through the shop. Charges for consumables, sales tax (even though we encourage them to buy their parts directly to eliminate it (while giving them the full discount available to us) freight, fuel (even though we only bought it at their request so they could fly a planned trip after picking up the plane) can add up to a significant amount when the invoice is processed.

I wish the new system could be in place tomorrow, but know that it won't. Maybe next year, but no way to forecast when it will happen. In the meantime we'll be somewhat hindered by the current limitations, and must try to overcome them with with better awareness and communication.

We have all the excuses. Too much work, too many surprises during pre-buys or inspections, customers changing their mind in mid-stream about additional work, delays by suppliers who don't return calls, scheduling staff to various jobs and deadlines, yada-yada-yada. They are all legitimate up to a point, but the bottom line is that customers are entitled to the very best product, service, quality and price that we can deliver. If not, they will be someone else's customer.

The unfortunate issue for them is and well beyond the budget, something they would have known if they followed the work order, stating to get confirmation prior to any work.

The budget is a hard number, they are trying to suck water out of a rock

I think we have some lawyers on the board, I believe in CA they have to provide a written estimate first by law anyway (auto industry), I think if this went to court that law would carry over??

My understanding is they have no right to hold the aircraft and logs, I'll try to settle with them for the amount that was authorized, however I can not pay for UNauthorized work for finical reasons, as well as ethical reasons.

 

[Ted]

It seems shops don't mind doing this to first-time customers, especially if they know they're not likely to return anyway. Since you normally do owner-assisted annuals, you fall into that category.

Legally, they can't hold your plane or logs for non-payment. Practically speaking, it will be harder to get it back.

I've had pretty much every shop try to pull this on me the first time I go. They quickly learn that not only will it not work, but they likely won't get paid for the work I didn't authorize. For some folks, it's probably just a test of your pain tolerance.

It's worth noting that I've typically found a stern talk with the manager does the job for correcting this behavior. They don't want to get sued any more than you want to sue them, but make sure you explain you're glad to call their bluff.

 

[Tom-D]

Legally, they can't hold your plane or logs for non-payment.

I'm afraid they can, read the small print before you sign the work order.

many shops stipulate they can hold the logs until they are paid, and you signed it.

 

[N801BH]

....I've had pretty much every shop try to pull this on me the first time I go.

That is a pretty discouraging finding ..

 

[bbchien]

I wouldn't know. I have a capable honest guy wto work on my bird, and I have supported him steadfastly for 20 years. TWENTY. It is because of a core of us that each successive failed FBO has had to hire him, and he has survived FOUR such transitions.

 

[Ted]

That is a pretty discouraging finding ..

Avionics shops seem to be the worst about this. But I had one shop about burn out a starter motor because they tried to start the 310 without my permission, then charge $500 for an oil change. Had another shop put new brakes on the Aztec when I told them to fix the heater (which didn't get fixed). When I had the KWX56 installed, they tried to charge me double the quote.

To be fair, they've never tried to fix anything that there wasn't a reason to, but they would fix things that could easily have been deferred or were fixed without permission.

The shop that received about 95% of my business got it because they didn't gouge me, got permission before fixing big items, etc. But they were often slow and didn't get stuff done when they said they would.

Happier with the new situation.

 

[John Baker]

The aviation industry is a dying industry, especially in light of the last election. Repair shops are getting desperate, it can only get worse, much worse.

If the shop is a corporation, by law in California, the owner can not represent his corporation in court, he must have an attorney. He is gambling that you will not take him to court. Find out if the shop is a corporation, if it is, take him to small claims. He will have to pay an attorney, you can represent yourself.

I have a hunch he will be willing to forgive the balance in order to avoid court. If he is not a corporation, your probably better off to just pay the bill and lick your wounds. You do not want him to slap a lean on your airplane.

-John

 

[NineThreeKilo]

I thought that unless I signed a bill of sale, the logbooks and plane are my property, don't understand how they can keep them?

There is no way I can, or will pay for the unauthorized repairs, the annual inspection and one repair I OKed, I'll pay for.

If this shop decides to be difficult, I guess I would have the local PD show up to keep the peace while I collect my property, make a report to the airport manager, BBB, Local chamber of commerce, FSDO and file at MY local court (which isn't their local court)??

In my aviation career up to now, I've never even had to take anyone to court, or had a major issue with a AP before, so this is all new to me.

 

[docmirror]

1) Do not pick up the plane, or books.

2) Do not pay for anything.

3) consult a lawyer conversant with contract law in your state.

4) Get as much info on the bill as you can without saying anything to agree to pay.

Turn it over to the lawyer and don't answer any more phone calls. Sue for loss of use as well. I hate this kind of shyte. if you wrote anything on the work order, that supercedes any kind of verbal he said/he said stuff. Just stay away, and let the lawyer do his thing.

 

[wabower]

Some work-order forms include fine-print language that creates a lien in favor of the shop. Dunno if it's enforceable or just a scare tactic in the event of a dispute.

I'm afraid they can, read the small print before you sign the work order.

many shops stipulate they can hold the logs until they are paid, and you signed it.

 

[jesse]

Some work-order forms include fine-print language that creates a lien in favor of the shop. Dunno if it's enforceable or just a scare tactic in the event of a dispute.

The older I get - the more I've learned that one doesn't have to blindly accept the ridiculous terms of most contracts. It's always amazing to me how easy it is to get terms dramatically changed in business-to-business deals.

It's a little more difficult when it's you-versus-business but still very doable.

 

[wabower]

I'm not sure how many people even take time to read the language above the signature block. If they did, I'm guessing they would do as you suggest.

The older I get - the more I've learned that one doesn't have to blindly accept the ridiculous terms of most contracts. It's always amazing to me how easy it is to get terms dramatically changed in business-to-business deals.

It's a little more difficult when it's you-versus-business but still very doable.

 

[Tom-D]

Some work-order forms include fine-print language that creates a lien in favor of the shop. Dunno if it's enforceable or just a scare tactic in the event of a dispute.

Here in Wa. you can't get a lien unless you have a work order signed by the owner, and it has that verbiage.

The courts won't touch a verbal contract.

 

[wabower]

In which case I wouldn't use a shop with such language. Why should I agree in advance to a lien? How do I know the shop will perform?

Here in Wa. you can't get a lien unless you have a work order signed by the owner, and it has that verbiage.

The courts won't touch a verbal contract.

 

[Tom-D]

In which case I wouldn't use a shop with such language. Why should I agree in advance to a lien? How do I know the shop will perform?

You would not be agreeing to a lien in advance. You would be agreeing to pay the bill.

and when you don't the shop can prove to the judge they should get a lien until you do.

 

[N801BH]

You would not be agreeing to a lien in advance. You would be agreeing to pay the bill.

and when you don't the shop can prove to the judge they should get a lien until you do.

He agreed to pay the bill for what he had the shop contracted to perform.. The shop then adds on a bunch of fluff, and he has NO obligation to pay their inflated bill ....

 

[wabower]

The states where I've lived or had work performed have managed to get along without such language, so I'll just continue to use them. Conversely, the shop hasn't had any problem filing liens when it was necessary to do so.

You would not be agreeing to a lien in advance. You would be agreeing to pay the bill.

and when you don't the shop can prove to the judge they should get a lien until you do.

 

[Tom-D]

He agreed to pay the bill for what he had the shop contracted to perform.. The shop then adds on a bunch of fluff, and he has NO obligation to pay their inflated bill ....

That should be a moot point, and be decided between them.

 

[Tom-D]

The states where I've lived or had work performed have managed to get along without such language, so I'll just continue to use them. Conversely, the shop hasn't had any problem filing liens when it was necessary to do so.

How did the shop prove they had a reason for a lien?

 

[wabower]

Same paperwork you use, except lien language isn't necessary.

How did the shop prove they had a reason for a lien?

 

[N801BH]

That should be a moot point, and be decided between them.

Spoken like a true mechanic...

It will be decided between them...


And It is NOT a moot point...IMHO.

 

[Tom-D]

Spoken like a true mechanic...

It will be decided between them...


And It is NOT a moot point...IMHO.

It ain't over til it's over

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moot_point

 

[bbchien]

After checking in a few times to get no real updates, a few weeks pass and I get a phone call, "your plane is done" WTF? guess the guy just signed off on the fabric?
Thoughts?

I would NEVER have "let a few weeks pass and I get a phone call...." even if I had a GREAT longstanding relationship with the shop. Formula for disaster.

 

[douglas393]

How much money are we talking about. Sometimes it is cheaper just to pay than to fight over principle. Been there and still doing that. Thankfully however not with airplane mechanics, but with building and repair contractors and national chain termite companies.

I fortunately have been quite lucky with my mechanic, in fact, I have to ask him to bill me half the time. My first mechanic on the same field was honest I think, but missed some stuff and when I went to the other repair shop on the field was quite upset.

Doug

 

[NineThreeKilo]

The difference is in the thousands, so it's not like is a few hundred bucks.

As for letting time pass, I think it was more like a week and that was just them being A) a busy and B ) waiting for the ONE part I authorized be ordered and installed to get in.

Isn't it easier and more profitable, and healthy, in the long term to just be straight with people?

 

[N801BH]

As this industry gets smaller and smaller the maintenance shops will be doing this sort of thing more and more to get enough money to stay in business.

Apparently , according to Tom, this is accepted practice among all the "remaining repair stations" so they can stay in business....

 

[wabower]

Just because Tom said it doesn't mean it's true. His viewpoint as a "trunk-monkey" without a facility who does only house calls doesn't necessarily present an unbiased source of information regarding the MX industry as a whole.

If he owned an 8,000 sq ft shop with a dozen mechanics taking care of an established customer base of 40+ airplanes, I'd be willing to bet that he would view the industry much differently.

The number of shops will contract as the industry contracts, as will the number of trunk-monkeys. That doesn't mean that either group will become crooks or systematically devise ways to cheat their customers. To the contrary, having a ready-made source of repeat business causes all of the service providers to be even more appreciative of their customers and to do everything they can to be sure they don't find reason to go elsewhere.

The smart operators understand that the profit is in the turns rather than the mark-up. They can earn more and keep more by getting the work out and moving another airplane in the same hangar slot than by gouging. If your shop produces 60-70 significant work orders per year from a hangar that will only hold 8 airplanes at a time, the turnover math is simple.

As this industry gets smaller and smaller the maintenance shops will be doing this sort of thing more and more to get enough money to stay in business.

Apparently , according to Tom, this is accepted practice among all the "remaining repair stations" so they can stay in business....

 

[Tom-D]

As this industry gets smaller and smaller the maintenance shops will be doing this sort of thing more and more to get enough money to stay in business.

Apparently , according to Tom, this is accepted practice among all the "remaining repair stations" so they can stay in business....

According to Tom, it's an accepted practice? (BS) that may be your interpretation but not mine.

I haven't been in this business as long as i have and maintain my reputation by screwing customers.

But I do see what other shops do. and that is why I have always advocated owners should use the self employed A&Ps.

 

[Tom-D]

Just because Tom said it doesn't mean it's true. His viewpoint as a "trunk-monkey" without a facility who does only house calls doesn't necessarily present an unbiased source of information regarding the MX industry as a whole.

I'd have to, it is a different set of rules for the CRS.

I see a different customer than you, that is why I have a different approach and a different opinion than you, that is not saying you are bad or that I am what you insinuate.

This past year I have seen 3 different customers that have been involved with the issues that the OP is in right now, that is why I have the opinion that I do. It is happening more and more often these past few years.

And you are right, these companies are no longer in business.