Not sharing expenses and not logging time

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RichNY

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RichNY
If I fly a friend to a destination and do it at my expense and don't log the time, is that legal? I have no common purpose to go except I like to fly and he's a good friend and not a pilot and has no intention of being a pilot or logging time. I am paying for all the fuel and expenses. I've known him for 50 years and I'm giving him transportation to a reunion 500 miles away because I'd like to.
He will not be touching anything in my plane except his lunch bag. I am not a CFI. I am not going for further ratings. I don't need the flight time.
 
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You can log the time,you can always take a friend flying.
 
I think you're misunderstanding. The choices are YOU pay everything out of the goodness of your heart, or all occupants of the aircraft pay their fair share including you. You flying your friend somewhere, at your own personal expense, is perfectly legal and loggable.

What is not legal, is you flying your friend somewhere, and that friend paying for all or more than his pro-rata share of your fuel and/or time.
 
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Pedals2Paddles said:
I think you're misunderstanding. The choices are YOU pay everything out of the goodness of your heart, or all occupants of the aircraft pay their fair share including you. You flying your friend somewhere, at your own personal expense, is perfectly legal and loggable.
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He's probably concerned by that silliness about flight time being treated as compensation by the FAA.
 
Legal for you, not legal for him if he logs it.

I suppose flight time might be compensation, but you're compensating yourself.
 
MAKG1 said:
Legal for you, not legal for him if he logs it.
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Agreed, unless the OP is a CFI, in which case receiving free training as a gift is legal and the time loggable by the friend.
I suppose flight time might be compensation, but you're compensating yourself.
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Exactly. The FAA is only concerned when you're receiving free or cut-rate time in return for doing something for someone else. Or as Dr. Lector would say, "Quid pro quo, Clarisse, quid pro quo" -- there's no issue regarding the quid unless it's pro quo.
 
MAKG1 said:
Legal for you, not legal for him if he logs it.

I suppose flight time might be compensation, but you're compensating yourself.
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I lost you on this post. "legal for you, not legal for him if he logs it".
Who is him? I'm a PP and my friend is not a pilot.:confused:
 
RichNY said:
I lost you on this post. "legal for you, not legal for him if he logs it".
Who is him? I'm a PP and my friend is not a pilot.:confused:
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See my post #9 just above your post #10. If you were a CFI, it would indeed be FAA-legal for you to give your friend an hour of loggable flight training since flight training has an exemption from the commercial operating certificate requirements in Part 119 (although how your insurer would feel about that might be another story). However, since you're a PP, there's nothing your friend can log legally, so the question of loggable time as compensation is moot.
 
RichNY said:
Exactly.
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An observation, not a legal opinion: Despite the broadness of the "accrual of flight time is compensation" language seen in some of the FAA Chief Counsel material, when actually applied there is typically some other element of compensation to someone or something else that either makes the operation "look" commercial or the "flight time" not the only compensation in the picture.

You can actually see it if your read the Chief Counsel opinions on the subject.

In 1990 there was the Lincoln letter where the FAA said a glider tow pilot was receiving "flight time" compensation. But the pilot was also getting free use of the two plane and the towed pilots were paying a fee to someone for the towing. (There was a reg change to take care of this one)

In 2006 there was the Bobertz Letter where the FAA said a pilot making numerous trips to transport the members of a racing club implicated the "flight time as compensation" rule. But in that one, the pilot was also charging the passengers their pro rata share (with no real common purpose except for maybe the first trip) and the "flight time compensation" rule discussion is almost an afterthought.

In 2013, there's the Howell Letter where the question was about a private pilot doing airshow work, the FAA goes back to its 1990 roots with the language "the logging of flight time is compensation if the pilot does not have to pay the costs of operating the aircraft."

I don't think the free airplane is a requirement to find flight time compensation but it looks like there's got to be some element other than simple taking a friend for a ride.

But it definitely is a problematic doctrine for one trying to understand it. The other equally nasty one is "business goodwill" as compensation, which I think is even a bigger potential problem.
 
Well, geez, Ron, that was a scenario that was never mentioned. Which makes post #8 make no sense.

Just to expand the scenario, what if the passenger WAS a Private Pilot,fully qualified in the airplane and actually flew it for the duration of the flight?
 
midlifeflyer said:
The other equally nasty one is "business goodwill" as compensation, which I think is even a bigger potential problem.
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Kinda like my EA's advice after I donated time to an international goodwill jazz tour to Vietnam in 2005. I wanted to deduct expenses. All the ducks were in a row -- the organization was a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, there was no financial gain (and a significant loss into the thousands per person).

The last requirement -- we weren't allowed to have fun. Really.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Well, geez, Ron, that was a scenario that was never mentioned. Which makes post #8 make no sense.
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Agreed, but it was the only context in which post #8 would makes sense, so I answered it accordingly.
Just to expand the scenario, what if the passenger WAS a Private Pilot,fully qualified in the airplane and actually flew it for the duration of the flight?
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Then by the FAA book, the rated passenger could log it all, the PP owner could not log any time at all unless the rated passenger was hooded, and the passenger would have to pay the direct costs of the flight.

But frankly, Scarlett, I don't think the FAA will give a damn. ;)
 
Could you all read my edited first post in this thread. I hope I covered every point. Is this legal to do? Thanks.
 
This is post #8

MAKG1 said:
Legal for you, not legal for him if he logs it.

I suppose flight time might be compensation, but you're compensating yourself.
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Given the context of the original post, why is it not legal if he logs it?


Ron Levy said:
Agreed, but it was the only context in which post #8 would makes sense, so I answered it accordingly.
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Well, not really. Since the context of the original post was that the pilot is paying all the costs for the flight, it is legal anyway. So why wouldn't it be legal for the passenger to log it if he flew it and was appropriately legal?

Then by the FAA book, the rated passenger could log it all, the PP owner could not log any time at all unless the rated passenger was hooded, and the passenger would have to pay the direct costs of the flight.
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Sigh.

But frankly, Scarlett, I don't think the FAA will give a damn. ;)
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Now THAT I can agree with. :yes::D
 
Some days I think the feds are going to come after me just for reading these type of threads
 
yetti said:
Some days I think the feds are going to come after me just for reading these type of threads
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I'm sure there are some that think a per kilobyte internet tax should be implemented.
 
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