Not good (FL crash)

FormerHangie said:
People on a beach have no expectation of an airplane attempting to make a forced landing there.
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True.


FormerHangie said:
If the victims had their backs to the airplane, I doubt they'd hear it coming over the sound of the surf, and would never know that they needed to run for their lives.
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Not everyone has to have their back to the approaching aircraft.

I guess I should have stated the obvious, people facing the aircraft would have a chance of seeing the aircarft in distress and maybe, just maybe, warn others. Obviously, if your back is to the approaching aircraft you haven't any chance of noticing it.
 
JOhnH said:
I either misunderstood you or that is the dumbest thing I have heard lately.
If I am emergency landing on a beach and blowing an air horn to alert someone in my path, are you saying they have no responsibility to step out of the way?
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Yes. You think you can barrel in on a beach blowing a horn and people have a responsibility to move? Dumb? If I put a horn on my FPV drone then it would be cool to fly it anywhere right? Pilots can just move. The self righteous entitlement of GA pilots is appalling.
 
Direct C51 said:
Maybe they didn't see the people on the beach in their panic, and chose that nice beach instead of almost certain death.
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Certain death? Jeez.

He didn't have to choose a water landing to avoid people. Judging from photos, the washout of the beach and the vegetation line are almost 100' away from where the aircraft came to rest. Putting in down there would have bent the aircraft but it certainly would have been survivable.

Making a successful off airport emergency landing is not cause for blind panic, it's time for some decision making and piloting.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Yes. You think you can barrel in on a beach blowing a horn and people have a responsibility to move? Dumb? If I put a horn on my FPV drone then it would be cool to fly it anywhere right? Pilots can just move. The self righteous entitlement of GA pilots is appalling.
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Even with a horn blaring, the people on the beach might believe that the pilot was just barnstorming, and just wave at the airplane right up until the moment it hit them.

This would be especially likely if the airport were close by the beach and pilots commonly put on impromptu airshows for the beachgoers, as is rumored to have happened a lot when I was flying out of KHWV. The beachgoers get accustomed to the airplanes.

-Rich
 
RJM62 said:
Even with a horn blaring, the people on the beach might believe that the pilot was just barnstorming, and just wave at the airplane right up until the moment it hit them.

This would be especially likely if the airport were close by the beach and pilots commonly put on impromptu airshows for the beachgoers, as is rumored to have happened a lot when I was flying out of KHWV. The beachgoers get accustomed to the airplanes.

-Rich
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+1. I don't know that all that many people would associate the hearing of a horn on the beach with an airplane making an emergency landing. They'd probably be looking around for a boat, not up in the sky for an airplane.
 
FormerHangie said:
You would prefer to put it down on a beach that you would expect to have people on it?
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Yes

Now I'm not talking a packed beach, but most beaches I've seen go for a long ways, also what if someone was swimming or someone was camping under the heavy forest, what about landing on a road?

I've landed on beaches before (non-emergency) and if done right you won't even scratch your wheel pants.

This was just a wrong place and the wrong time.

Ditching in water is really not something I'd do shy of no other possibility, just go ask that Indian dude and his son, right there're dead.

Just bad luck in a bad situation.
 
thehulk06 said:
Agreed. Don't put other people at risk because you're joy riding in a plane. Guess those in the plane felt entitled to that beach regardless of who was there.
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Ok, if you have a engine failure, you're set up for what looks like a good spot in a field, you're on final low energy state and out of no where you see some hunter in full camo last minute!

Do you A. Nose the airplane into the ground killing you and your pax to spare the hunter, after all you're just joy riding and your responsible for him.

Or B. Make whatever slight corrections you can without crashing and hope you'll miss him and he'll get out of the way

You know damn well you'd do B. Even though you're just a "joy rider"

My first responsibility is to my pax, I'm not putting them in further danger just because if "what ifs".

Out of all the emergency landings this is a very rare occurrence.
 
James331 said:
Ok, if you have a engine failure, you're set up for what looks like a good spot in a field, you're on final low energy state and out of no where you see some hunter in full camo last minute!

Do you A. Nose the airplane into the ground killing you and your pax to spare the hunter, after all you're just joy riding and your responsible for him.

Or B. Make whatever slight corrections you can without crashing and hope you'll miss him and he'll get out of the way

You know damn well you'd do B. Even though you're just a "joy rider"

My first responsibility is to my pax, I'm not putting them in further danger just because if "what ifs".

Out of all the emergency landings this is a very rare occurrence.
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This scenario holds zero relevance to the discussion. Your comparing a hunter who is on high alert to any movement ( I am an avid hunter myself) in a secluded part of the wilderness to that of a beach in Miami? That seems just plain silly and I can't take you serious if your honestly asking me that question.

But since you has assumed you'll know what I will do in an emergency situation I'll humor you.

F'in no way will I put innocent people in harms way on a beach if my engine goes out. I feel none of this "I'm a pilot so I'm better than you" attitude. I have and always will accept the consequences of my actions.

Anyone who sets there plane down on a beach and no one in the plane is hurt but killing and injuring a family is a coward.

Don't you understand, a man/father is dead because of the actions of one man who's sense of self preservation took top priority over those enjoying themselves on a Miami beach.

Just senseless those of you defending his actions.
 
For those who have never walked on beach:
A. The surf is loud, you can't hear what someone is yelling from 100 ft away
B. if I waving my arms yelling at someone, they'll think someone is drowning, not there is an airplane behind them.


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If they put it down in the water, that same father probably would have jump in to save the pilots.


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James331 said:
Ok, if you have a engine failure, you're set up for what looks like a good spot in a field, you're on final low energy state and out of no where you see some hunter in full camo last minute!



Do you A. Nose the airplane into the ground killing you and your pax to spare the hunter, after all you're just joy riding and your responsible for him.



Or B. Make whatever slight corrections you can without crashing and hope you'll miss him and he'll get out of the way



You know damn well you'd do B. Even though you're just a "joy rider"



My first responsibility is to my pax, I'm not putting them in further danger just because if "what ifs".



Out of all the emergency landings this is a very rare occurrence.
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Well said.
 
There is no such things as accidents anymore?
 
thehulk06 said:
This scenario holds zero relevance to the discussion. Your comparing a hunter who is on high alert to any movement ( I am an avid hunter myself) in a secluded part of the wilderness to that of a beach in Miami? That seems just plain silly and I can't take you serious if your honestly asking me that question.

But since you has assumed you'll know what I will do in an emergency situation I'll humor you.

F'in no way will I put innocent people in harms way on a beach if my engine goes out. I feel none of this "I'm a pilot so I'm better than you" attitude. I have and always will accept the consequences of my actions.

Anyone who sets there plane down on a beach and no one in the plane is hurt but killing and injuring a family is a coward.

Don't you understand, a man/father is dead because of the actions of one man who's sense of self preservation took top priority over those enjoying themselves on a Miami beach.

Just senseless those of you defending his actions.
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Assuming facts not in evidence bud.

It isn't self entitlement it's self preservationist and the duties of being pilot in command (protecting your pax). It has jack to do with who's better than whom.

...the person who:

Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
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. You have a DUTY to your pax

Also you watch that video, there is a ton of beach in this country and quite a bit of it is NOT packed with folks.

To you on high alert super human senses hunter, that father had 2 tours in Iraq, I think he was also used to being aware of his surroundings.


So you didn't answer my question, are you saying that you would nose over your aircraft on short final with pax aboard to avoid a possible collision with a pedestrian? You decided to sacrifice the lives on everyone aboard your plane, that's a call you feel entitled to make? Interesting.
 
teejayevans said:
If they put it down in the water, that same father probably would have jump in to save the pilots.


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Maybe. Of he might have hit someone else in the surf.

Point is none of us know how congested the beach/surf was at that time or what the pilot saw when he was making his decisions.
 
teejayevans said:
If they put it down in the water, that same father probably would have jump in to save the pilots.


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Or maybe he would have elected to try to save the children that were out there playing in the surf and got whacked by an airplane instead.

This is a situation where there may have been no good options. Especially one that could have been resolved in the heat of the crisis. I guess there are a few dozen people that would quickly and willingly sacrifice themselves in such a situation, but not many. And it is not usually the ones that say they would in advance. That is "Medal of Honor" type of action, and there are darn few of those types around.
 
James331 said:
Assuming facts not in evidence bud.

It isn't self entitlement it's self preservationist and the duties of being pilot in command (protecting your pax). It has jack to do with who's better than whom.

. You have a DUTY to your pax

Also you watch that video, there is a ton of beach in this country and quite a bit of it is NOT packed with folks.

To you on high alert super human senses hunter, that father had 2 tours in Iraq, I think he was also used to being aware of his surroundings.


So you didn't answer my question, are you saying that you would nose over your aircraft on short final with pax aboard to avoid a possible collision with a pedestrian? You decided to sacrifice the lives on everyone aboard your plane, that's a call you feel entitled to make? Interesting.
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Your question is bullsht. And him being a vet doesn't mean he's on high alert at the beach. Duh.

You said there's a hunter at the last minute, assuming I have 60 seconds I will fly to a spot to where he is not. That simple.

It's also this simple, you go to your freezer you expect to see ice. You go to the beach in Miami during July, you expect there to be people. DUH.

Your making all the excuses you can to defend a guy who is guilty of manslaughter. Let's hope daughter doesn't die as well.

I, as a father and pilot are a little concerned to take my kids to the beach, lest a pilot who doesn't give 2 piles of cow manure about me and my kids tries to make an emergency landing to save his azz and "pax"....
 
thehulk06 said:
Your making all the excuses you can to defend a guy who is guilty of manslaughter. Let's hope daughter doesn't die as well.

I, as a father and pilot are a little concerned to take my kids to the beach, lest a pilot who doesn't give 2 piles of cow manure about me and my kids tries to make an emergency landing to save his azz and "pax"....
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I'm sure the pilot

a) picked out a spot he thought was clear
b) either did not see, or saw the victims too late to maneuver
c) feels terrible about the whole thing
 
dell30rb said:
I'm sure the pilot

a) picked out a spot he thought was clear
b) either did not see, or saw the victims too late to maneuver
c) feels terrible about the whole thing
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We hope so anyways.
 
James331 said:
Assuming facts not in evidence bud.

It isn't self entitlement it's self preservationist and the duties of being pilot in command (protecting your pax). It has jack to do with who's better than whom.

. You have a DUTY to your pax

Also you watch that video, there is a ton of beach in this country and quite a bit of it is NOT packed with folks.

To you on high alert super human senses hunter, that father had 2 tours in Iraq, I think he was also used to being aware of his surroundings.


So you didn't answer my question, are you saying that you would nose over your aircraft on short final with pax aboard to avoid a possible collision with a pedestrian? You decided to sacrifice the lives on everyone aboard your plane, that's a call you feel entitled to make? Interesting.
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If it's your attitude that your passengers are more important than the people on the ground, then you can reasonably expect those same people on the ground to lobby for restrictions to where you can fly, and to also lobby for the closing of general aviation airports.
 
dell30rb said:
I'm sure the pilot

a) picked out a spot he thought was clear
b) either did not see, or saw the victims too late to maneuver
c) feels terrible about the whole thing
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d) is smug because he saved his passenger from harm.
 
thehulk06 said:
.

Your making all the excuses you can to defend a guy who is guilty of manslaughter.
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Are you willing to stand by that statement this early in the game? So far no trial and not even a complete investigation yet you have found him guilty.
 
thehulk06 said:
Your making all the excuses you can to defend a guy who is guilty of manslaughter. Let's hope daughter doesn't die as well.
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Good news folks- we can do away with our whole criminal justice system and due process! We've got a one man internet legal show right here!
 
JOhnH said:
Are you willing to stand by that statement this early in the game? So far no trial and not even a complete investigation yet you have found him guilty.
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He killed a man with his plane. Yea, I'll stand by that even if no one else will. I'm really that disgusted by the way this turned out. He stepped on someone's life so he could live, at least that's how I see it.

Of course I'm out spoken and say what I think, rare in these parts that someone doesn't try to he politically correct....
 
Fearless Tower said:
Good news folks- we can do away with our whole criminal justice system and due process! We've got a one man internet legal show right here!
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Great news folks, as long as you have money you can land wherever you want and kill innocent people because your PIC.

Did my forefathers not fight and die for my right of freedom of speech? Thanks in advance for your acknowledgement.
 
thehulk06 said:
Your question is bullsht. And him being a vet doesn't mean he's on high alert at the beach. Duh.
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Nor is anyone on high alert for a plane gliding down ontop of them


thehulk06 said:
You said there's a hunter at the last minute, assuming I have 60 seconds I will fly to a spot to where he is not. That simple.
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That simple :rofl:
Oh boy! How many hours do you have? Are you even a pilot?
Engine failures don't work that way.


thehulk06 said:
It's also this simple, you go to your freezer you expect to see ice. You go to the beach in Miami during July, you expect there to be people. DUH.
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There is quite a bit of beach, plenty of which is sparsely populated.


thehulk06 said:
Your making all the excuses you can to defend a guy who is guilty of manslaughter.
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I'm not making excuses, the guy was put into a situation you clearly have zero understanding of, zero experience with, and he made the best call he could.

This also could have been worse, options and time are limited when that fan stops.
 
James331 said:
Nor is anyone on high alert for a plane gliding down ontop of them




That simple :rofl:
Oh boy! How many hours do you have? Are you even a pilot?
Engine failures don't work that way.




There is quite a bit of beach, plenty of which is sparsely populated.




I'm not making excuses, the guy was put into a situation you clearly have zero understanding of, zero experience with, and he made the best call he could.

This also could have been worse, options and time are limited when that fan stops.
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Certainly not an expert on the matter but I am a pilot. 106 whopping hours with enough ballsack to know I'm not landing on a beach with people on it.

And I know exactly how a plane with an engine out handles, you told me it was last minute. ... As far as I know a minute is 60 seconds which gives me plenty of time to miss the hunter. PLENTY.
 
You guys are amazing! Why would anyone ever go to the NTSB when we have such a cadre of experts here. How many of you were either in the cockpit or on the beach?

This pilot could have been totally unconcerned with anyone but himself in making a decision to land on the beach or he could have honestly thought it was a safe spot. There are many reasons he might not have seen this poor man and his daughter on the beach. Perhaps he saw the beach but could not see the people perhaps due to lighting conditions, the location and height above the horizon of the sun, Heavy haze, Sea fog or such the two people blended in to the landscape or seascape if they were walking in the water or perhaps they came out of the water just as he was landing perhaps he landed in a safe direction and a gear collapse or the sand pulled the plane into a collision course with the people.

Perhaps the PIC really didn't care, if so shame shame but in reality you all know nothing about what happened other than what you read in the media and remember they always get the story right:rolleyes:. I'm not suggesting the PIC should not be criticized if he totally disregarded the man and his daughter what I'm saying is get some facts first.

Here is the only fact that's for sure. A father and husband died and his little girl was hurt badly and that is a horrible horrible thing.
 
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AdamZ said:
You guys are amazing! Why would anyone ever go to the NTSB when we have such a cadre of experts here. How many of you were either in the cockpit or on the beach?

This pilot could have been totally unconcerned with anyone but himself in making a decision to land on the beach or he could have honestly thought it was a safe spot. There are many reasons he might not have seen this poor man and his daughter on the beach. Perhaps he saw the beach but could not see the people perhaps due to lighting conditions, the location and height above the horizon of the sun, Heavy haze, Sea fog or such the two people blended in to the landscape or seascape if they were walking in the water or perhaps they came out of the water just as he was landing perhaps he landed in a safe direction and a gear collapse or the sand pulled the plane into a collision course with the people.

Perhaps the PIC really didn't care, if so shame shame but in reality you all know nothing about what happened other than what you read in the media and remember they always get the story right:rolleyes:. I'm not suggesting the PIC should not be criticized if he totally disregarded the man and his daughter what I'm saying is get some facts first.

Here is the only fact that's for sure. A father and husband died and his little girl was hurt badly and that is a horrible horrible thing.
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Well stated Adam. :yes:
 
Fearless Tower said:
A hundred hour expert! Awesome!
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I think I clearly expressed I was not an expert. Your selective reading is awesome.

I continue to learn and get better, as a low time pilot I would still hold innocent life above mine.

You act as if I'm not allowed to form my own opinion. Sorry for you, but I do and will always voice it.

America is free right? Thanks
 
Thanks Adam. You said it better than I did.

AdamZ said:
You guys are amazing! Why would anyone ever go to the NTSB when we have such a cadre of experts here. How many of you were either in the cockpit or on the beach?

This pilot could have been totally unconcerned with anyone but himself in making a decision to land on the beach or he could have honestly thought it was a safe spot. There are many reasons he might not have seen this poor man and his daughter on the beach. Perhaps he saw the beach but could not see the people perhaps due to lighting conditions, the location and height above the horizon of the sun, Heavy haze, Sea fog or such the two people blended in to the landscape or seascape if they were walking in the water or perhaps they came out of the water just as he was landing perhaps he landed in a safe direction and a gear collapse or the sand pulled the plane into a collision course with the people.

Perhaps the PIC really didn't care, if so shame shame but in reality you all know nothing about what happened other than what you read in the media and remember they always get the story right:rolleyes:. I'm not suggesting the PIC should not be criticized if he totally disregarded the man and his daughter what I'm saying is get some facts first.

Here is the only fact that's for sure. A father and husband died and his little girl was hurt badly and that is a horrible horrible thing.
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thehulk06 said:
And I know exactly how a plane with an engine out handles, you told me it was last minute. ... As far as I know a minute is 60 seconds which gives me plenty of time to miss the hunter. PLENTY.
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And how many full engine failures have you had?
 
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Looks like the prop wasn't turning. It's one thing if the engine quit, but another if he ran it out of gas.
 
I will say, that this is where a Cirrus can potentially shine. Even though it would have been coming down under a parachute, which could still kill / hurt someone, it has the loud ass BANG from the rocket launching. The loud noise from above, MIGHT have changed the outcome.

Regardless of flight hours: Taking an innocent life while flying is unjustifiable, IMO. I would rather read about another dead pilot and comment on his / her ability to avoid the house, people on the beach, etc......
 
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