Nose wheel fairings

[Bell206]

trouble with interpreting the way they are written to what you think they are

I have yet to have more than one FAA ASI, out of a group of ASIs, give me the same exact interpretation of an FAR and these guys work down the same hall and in the same FSDO. Curious. What makes your interpretation of the regulatory requirements regarding the removal of wheel fairings so ironclad?

 

[Tom-D]

https://www.faa.gov/got_data/aero_data/ask_question/

I did.

 

[Bell206]

https://www.faa.gov/got_data/aero_data/ask_question/ I did.

Curious. What would asking a question to the FAA Aeronautical charts and services website have to do with Part 43 maintenance on removing wheel fairings?

 

[timwinters]

Curious. What would asking a question to the FAA Aeronautical charts and services website have to do with Part 43 maintenance on removing wheel fairings?

Tom's motto:



A troll is a troll is a troll.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

So under wheel fairings it list set of 3 how can you fly with one or less than 3, how about only one wing tip, it has two but why not remove one and fly with that so you can fix it. My point was and still is they all have to be on or all wheel fairings have to be off either is good, one or two of them is half way and is not.

Brien23-

Your point doesn't seem to be supported by the information referenced.

Please look at posts 50 and 54. Post #50 references the Cessna 172 POH where they list performance changes when the wheel fairings are removed, suggesting that Cessna expects them to be removed.

Post 54 shows a W&B /equipment list for a C-172. The wheel fairings and the tow bar both have an -S suffix; the last image in post 54 shows a key to those suffixes. The -S suffix indicates they are standard equipment installed on that airplane; the -R suffix indicates they are required by the FAA. A magnetic compass, air speed indicator, and wheels are listed as -R.
Wing tips aren't listed in that equipment list, and removal and alterations of those would probably be covered by one of the citations that @Tom-D posted for a major alteration.

See this response below

Go to the equipment list and please show us where it list wing tips, and what category it falls under.

Also, please find in the Cessna SE MM where it restricts removing a single wheel fairing.

Honestly having to explain this to someone who holds an A&P/IA is absolutely mind numbing.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Curious. What would asking a question to the FAA Aeronautical charts and services website have to do with Part 43 maintenance on removing wheel fairings?

Busted!!!!

 

[Tom-D]

Curious. What would asking a question to the FAA Aeronautical charts and services website have to do with Part 43 maintenance on removing wheel fairings?

all responses aren't about you

 

[Salty]

all responses aren't about you

Or the thread topic. Or anything else.

 

[Jim_R]

What does flying around without fairings have to do with nose wheel shimmy?

wheel fairings when properly maintained will not cause a shimmy. A out of balance one, will that is a balance problem.

The OP seems to imply in two posts that people fly around without wheel pants because of nose wheel shimmy, and that they should just fix the shimmy and put the pants back on. That is what I was addressing.

 

[Jim K]

they should just fix the shimmy and put the pants back on.

That would fix the super bowl halftime show, too.

 

[Tom-D]

The OP seems to imply in two posts that people fly around without wheel pants because of nose wheel shimmy, and that they should just fix the shimmy and put the pants back on. That is what I was addressing.

lots of time it is more than the dampener, I've seen the entire axel assembly is loose, and the entire engine mount was broken.

 

[Jim_R]

lots of time it is more than the dampener, I've seen the entire axel assembly is loose, and the entire engine mount was broken.

Yes, if you go way back to read my original reply you quoted, my point was that people choose to fly without wheel pants for all sorts of reasons, and shimmy issues probably don't even make the top 10 list.

 

[timwinters]

dampener

axel

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Somebody call the FAA

 

[Tom-D]

who knows what the statement "properly altered" means?

 

[Doc Holliday]

who knows what the statement "properly altered" means?

Obviously not you.

But to answer your question, we can look at Order 8900.85 (cancelled) and it says:

5.
Guidance.
When ASIs conduct an investigation of allegations of improper
maintenance/alteration, the following guidance applies:
a. Approved Parts.
We consider parts produced under an approval according to the
procedural requirements of Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 21
“approved parts.” Parts eligible for installation on type-certificated aircraft, but excepted from the FAA’s approval requirements, are also considered “approved parts.” You can find examples of FAA exceptions to the approval requirements in 14 CFR § 21.303(b).

Improper maintenance/alteration of an approved part does not render the part
unapproved. It can render the part ineligible for installation because the part
was not maintained or altered in accordance with the provisions of 14 CFR part 43. Under this circumstance, an installer can no longer verify that Distribution: Electronic Only installation of the improperly-maintained/altered part in a type-certificated product would return that product to a condition at least equal to its original or properly altered condition. Such a verification is a necessary condition in determining installation eligibility under part 43,§ 43.13(b).

 

[Bell206]

who knows what the statement "properly altered" means?

Perhaps send that question to these guys.

https://www.faa.gov/got_data/aero_data/ask_question/

 

[Tom-D]

Perhaps send that question to these guys.

Really funny,, you and your grouppeeys don't know.

 

[Bell206]

Really funny,, you and your grouppeeys don't know.

Oh no! I'm a groupie now. What will my mother think!

Fortunately for me, I happen to have an idea what "properly altered" means in the aviation context of Part 43.13. Here's one version via a NTSB Admin hearing from 1972 I think. There are others. Key words on why its used is in paragraph 3:

 

[Tom-D]

Fortunately for me, I happen to have an idea what "properly altered" means in the aviation context of Part 43.13. Here's one version via a NTSB Admin hearing from 1972 I think. There are others. Key words on why its used is in paragraph 3:
View attachment 82580

Using that, show the proper entry to remove the wheel pants.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Using that, show the proper entry to remove the wheel pants.

You don't know that either?

 

[Tom-D]

You don't know that either?

make sense

 

[Bell206]

Using that, show the proper entry to remove the wheel pants.

Okay. I'll bite--again. FWIW: you really do amaze me at times with your lack of basic knowledge.

N12345, T.T.: 1234:56. Hobbs: 123:45
Removed 3 each landing gear wheel speed fairings per Cessna 100 Series MM. Updated aircraft Equipment List and corrected aircraft Weight and Balance record. Determined to be a minor alteration. Bell206 AP1234567.

 

[Tom-D]

N12345, T.T.: 1234:56. Hobbs: 123:45
Removed 3 each landing gear wheel speed fairings per Cessna 100 Series MM. Updated aircraft Equipment List and corrected aircraft Weight and Balance record. Determined to be a minor alteration. Bell206 AP1234567.

that quote is debatable if it is a minor or not, simply because the W&B is effect
This is why many A&P-AIs use the Field approval process (then there is no debate)

any matter, I seldom see any entry to removal.

read CH.5 -10 for the Cessna MM.

 

[Doc Holliday]

that quote is debatable if it is a minor or not, simply because the W&B is effect
This is why many A&P-AIs use the Field approval process (then there is no debate)

any matter, I seldom see any entry to removal.

read CH.5 -10 for the Cessna MM.

A compete A&P would recognize that removing wheel fairings from a C-172 is indeed a minor alteration. I have NEVER seen a wheel fairing removal be considered a major and requiring a field approval, that is absurd on it's face.

Your circling inane diatribe on this subject once again questions your knowledge on simple regulation reading and comprehension. The post where you allegedly requested an answer from the FAA using a link to the Aeronautical Charts and Services proves you don't even understand what you write, but more importantly proves your only interest is trolling.

 

[Skyrys62]

 

[Bell206]

simply because the W&B is effect

So if I removed all the seats except the pilot seat and the carpeting I would need a field approval due to this equipment's affect on the W&B? Or would it be a minor alteration like I believe with the speed fairings?

(then there is no debate)

While I think your quote of "many A&P-AIs" is debatable as shown in this thread, what would you do if your FSDO ASI denied your field approval request as they felt it was a minor alteration?

any matter, I seldom see any entry to removal.

Well that point is a performance issue of the person removing the fairings, not whether the removal itself is a major alteration.

 

[Tom-D]

Well that point is a performance issue of the person removing the fairings, not whether the removal itself is a major alteration.

I'd suggest you review AC 43-120

1. 2.2.3.1 Product Certification Basis. If the certification basis applicable to the product intended to be altered or repaired is different from the basis the previously approved data was developed for, you must make a comparison of the two and address the differences in making a determination of applicability for use of the previously approved data.
   

 

[Doc Holliday]

I'd suggest you review AC 43-120

1. 2.2.3.1 Product Certification Basis. If the certification basis applicable to the product intended to be altered or repaired is different from the basis the previously approved data was developed for, you must make a comparison of the two and address the differences in making a determination of applicability for use of the previously approved data.

Please post correct references. There is no AC 43-120. However, there is a 43-210A.

But you're not even reading the material, just cherry picking bits here and there trying to make some inane point.

What you've posted here has nothing to do with what the OP posted about. Nothing.

 

[Bell206]

I'd suggest you review... Product Certification Basis

Ha! How typical of you. You can't answer the question in Post 107 so you circle back to your topic in Post 31 on Production Certificates. Fine. Since you seem to believe PCs are very important, perhaps you can now answer a different version of my question to you in Post 37: Should an IA verify an aircraft conforms to its Production Certificate to insure all its equipment, i.e., wheel speed fairings, are installed prior to signing off the aircraft as airworthy?

 

[denverpilot]

Wheel pants for my cherokee have been sitting on the back shelf in the hangar for 10 years. I have W&B for pants-on and pants-off ( reads just as silly as saying it )

This is also required for Burning Man airport. Different pants though. LOL.

 

[Tom-D]

Well that point is a performance issue of the person removing the fairings, not whether the removal itself is a major alteration.

1. 2.2.3.1 Product Certification Basis. If the certification basis applicable to the product intended to be altered or repaired is different from the basis the previously approved data was developed for, you must make a comparison of the two and address the differences in making a determination of applicability for use of the previously approved data.

Try again

Appendix A to Part 43—Major Alterations, Major Repairs, and Preventive Maintenance
(a) Major alterations—(1) Airframe major alterations. Alterations of the following parts and alterations of the following types, when not listed in the aircraft specifications issued by the FAA, are airframe major alterations:

(vi) Landing gear.

 

[Bell206]

Try again

Okay. So are we off Production Certificates again...

Are you now saying that the wheel speed fairings are part of the landing gear assembly and when the fairings are simply removed constitutes a major alteration?

 

[Tom-D]

Are you now saying that the wheel speed fairings are part of the landing gear assembly and when the fairings are simply removed constitutes a major alteration?

Yes!
If any aircraft is not complete it should have proof that it was properly modified.

 

[Bell206]

Yes!

Alright, you answered a question!

So following your previously referenced AC 43.210A, and using the included flow chart below, please educate me on how the removal of the wheel speed fairings ends up as a major alteration?

 

[Tom-D]

Alright, you answered a question!

Know the rules helps.
Airframe major alterations. Alterations of the following parts and alterations of the following types, when not listed in the aircraft specifications issued by the FAA, are airframe major alterations:

 

[Bell206]

Know the rules helps...

Exactly. We're getting closer... So define aircraft (product) specifications in these two instances:



Appendix A to Part 43—Major Alterations, Major Repairs, and Preventive Maintenance
(a) Major alterations—(1) Airframe major alterations. Alterations of the following parts and alterations of the following types, when not listed in the aircraft specifications ....