non-owners policy for student club member

Pnwannabe2

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Greetings. I'm a student pilot and recently joined a local flying club. The insurance policy covers members as named owners with a $1000 deductible and $1M liability coverage. Not sure about the other details in the policy.

As a student, would purchasing an additional policy (e.g. Avemco) for myself be a good idea? Others have done this to avoid the deductible and raise the limits, but as a new student, I'm wondering how responsibility works in aviation accidents. If the CFI is responsible for what happens and I'm in a club plane, maybe I will wait until I have my PPL and rent other A/C?
 
If you're with a CFI, non-owners insurance is not necessary, as the liability would fall on the clubs insurance if an incident were to occur.

When you begin to solo, than I would consider a non-owners policy, until then, it's not really necessary.
 
I don't know, but I don't think you can 'avoid the deductible', like, ever. I think. you will always pay, one way or another.
 
would purchasing an additional policy (e.g. Avemco) for myself be a good idea? Others have done this to avoid the deductible and raise the limits, but as a new student, I'm wondering how responsibility works in aviation accidents.

I don't know, but I don't think you can 'avoid the deductible', like, ever. I think. you will always pay, one way or another.
This is true. You can't really avoid the deductible. You either pay theirs or your own policy's deductible.

As far as responsibility, if the accident occured from pilots negligence (pilot error) than the PIC will be deemed responsible. OTOH, if the accident occurs from a mantainence issue that was out of the PIC's control, than the owner/operator of the airplane would be responsible.
 
Your club is responsible for their deductible, not the actual member flying, unless the bylaws state otherwise (which I doubt).

There's also the issue of subrogation. Carefully read the club policy!

I just looked, when I was a non-owner my policy was $375/yr. The outfit I rented from didn't require it as a student but did did after ppl.

Call a broker, tell them your situation, and go from there. Here's who I used this year and was very happy:
Leah Ringeisen
Account Executive
Gallagher Aviation
Direct: 877-520-6247
 
Greetings. I'm a student pilot and recently joined a local flying club. The insurance policy covers members as named owners with a $1000 deductible and $1M liability coverage. Not sure about the other details in the policy.

As a student, would purchasing an additional policy (e.g. Avemco) for myself be a good idea? Others have done this to avoid the deductible and raise the limits, but as a new student, I'm wondering how responsibility works in aviation accidents. If the CFI is responsible for what happens and I'm in a club plane, maybe I will wait until I have my PPL and rent other A/C?
before I soloed I had to take out a renters policy else the school would not allow me to fly solo. even without that requirement I would've done that.
 
If you own 20% or less, the Avemco policies liability limits 'stack' with the underlying policy. This can be a useful feature if you are looking for more than a million in liability coverage.

For the hull portion, it depends on how your clubs policy is written. It should be written in a way that club members can't be held responsible beyond the deductible. If it is, there is little use in an additional policy.
 
My club has three airplanes and 28 members. Our per seat person liability from Starr is only $100K.

The Avemco non-owner policy that weilike mentioned has a per person limit of $100k. For years I carried the Avemco non-owner policy , but a couple of years ago I switched to the AOPA non-owner policy because it's per non-occupant liability limit is up to one million dollars.
 
I had a very interesting conversation at OSH with Jim Lauerman, formerly president of Avemco, and at that time Avemco's chief underwriter. Great guy. This was maybe 8-10 years ago and I was asking about a $1M liability limit, which seemed kind of skinny to me. He told me that he had never seen a jury award more than the insurance limit, which would effectively mean going after the defendant's personal assets. He said it seemed to be a sort of Robin Hood thing where the juries wanted to give the plaintiff all the available insurance money but did not want to go farther. No guarantees, of course, but that's what he told me.
 
Your club is responsible for their deductible, not the actual member flying, unless the bylaws state otherwise (which I doubt).
Why do you doubt that? I have only read a few clubs bylaws (when comparing to ours) but that seemed common. It always seemed reasonable to us - if the member ran off the runway bent the plane, they paid the deductible.
 
Why do you doubt that? I have only read a few clubs bylaws (when comparing to ours) but that seemed common. It always seemed reasonable to us - if the member ran off the runway bent the plane, they paid the deductible.

If the member lands off field because the engine stopped, is that their fault or a common cost? How about a tire blows out on landing or a gear leg collapses? Who gets the deductible?

Your example points to pilot error. In which case subrogation is needed and they should pay it. I just gave two examples outside of pilot error. You still going to stick the unlucky person with the cost of poor club maintenance?
 
You said you doubted it would be an any bylaws. I wondered if you had read a lot of bylaws and we had something unusual.
I doubt we would "stick" the unlucky pilot if the situation was beyond their control. The club is run by trustees and they have some discretion. We are a small club and I am confident if they felt the situation was not the fault of the pilot they would wave the fee. We have had similar issues come up not involving insurance, particularly with flat tires and other maintenance they handled the situation fairly - not charging any Hobbs time because the flights could not be completed. Fortunately we have only had one insurance claim and it was clearly pilot error. That guy felt so bad for the loss of use of the plane, he wanted to pay the cost difference for members to rent from a local FBO.
 
As far as responsibility, if the accident occured from pilots negligence (pilot error) than the PIC will be deemed responsible. OTOH, if the accident occurs from a mantainence issue that was out of the PIC's control, than the owner/operator of the airplane would be responsible.

Your club is responsible for their deductible, not the actual member flying, unless the bylaws state otherwise (which I doubt).
As I mentioned above, it would depend on who is at fault from the incident. If something happened that was caused by the PIC's negligence they would be responsible to pay the deductible.

The club wouldn't flip the bill for an accident one of their members caused.
 
My club has three airplanes and 28 members. Our per seat person liability from Starr is only $100K.

The Avemco non-owner policy that weilike mentioned has a per person limit of $100k. For years I carried the Avemco non-owner policy , but a couple of years ago I switched to the AOPA non-owner policy because it's per non-occupant liability limit is up to one million dollars.

The limits on the avemco policy are in addition to whatever insurance is available from the owner or the club. I had an AIG policy through AOPA and that was secondary only. But yes, Avemco has this goofy 'per person' sublimit which could pinch you if you affect a non-occupant.

A couple of years ago, Starr offered iirc 200k sublimit for non-owned but that is the highest I could find in the retail market. Of course, a specialty broker can write you a 5mil non-owned policy if that is what you need, but the premium is going to be steep.
 
I had a very interesting conversation at OSH with Jim Lauerman, formerly president of Avemco, and at that time Avemco's chief underwriter. Great guy. This was maybe 8-10 years ago and I was asking about a $1M liability limit, which seemed kind of skinny to me. He told me that he had never seen a jury award more than the insurance limit, which would effectively mean going after the defendant's personal assets. He said it seemed to be a sort of Robin Hood thing where the juries wanted to give the plaintiff all the available insurance money but did not want to go farther. No guarantees, of course, but that's what he told me.

In many states the jury isn't allowed to know whether and how much insurance is available.

Insurance people are generally good at math. There is a considerable step between 100k (sublimits) and 1mil smooth and then there are further steps to get 2 or 5mil. Limits higher than 5 are available for very little additional premium. That, and the statements of someone in the industry tells me that there is a number of cases in the 1-5mil price range.
I dont worry about a jury and some crazy punitive award. I worry about just a simple hospital and disability bill that can run a million in no time.
 
As I mentioned above, it would depend on who is at fault from the incident. If something happened that was caused by the PIC's negligence they would be responsible to pay the deductible. The club wouldn't flip the bill for an accident one of their members caused.

If it was PIC negligence the insurer would probably also look the other way and the PIC would be on the hook for the whole deal. Pilot error, on the other hand, would probably be covered by the insurance. What a difference a word makes. Also, keep in mind that Accident and Incident are very different words to the FAA and NASB.

Since my curiosity was piqued I looked up our bylaws and it turns out that our rule is that if a covered loss occurs it would be reviewed by two non-involved members, who may recommend to the BOD a sanction of up to, but not more than, the deductible (for us $1k). If the board chooses to proceed the approval of the sanction requires the majority vote of the general membership.

I guess I'll need to be nicer to the other member :)
 
Greetings. I'm a student pilot and recently joined a local flying club. The insurance policy covers members as named owners with a $1000 deductible and $1M liability coverage. Not sure about the other details in the policy.

As a student, would purchasing an additional policy (e.g. Avemco) for myself be a good idea? Others have done this to avoid the deductible and raise the limits, but as a new student, I'm wondering how responsibility works in aviation accidents. If the CFI is responsible for what happens and I'm in a club plane, maybe I will wait until I have my PPL and rent other A/C?

I am willing bet you don't have $500,000 liability on your automobile insurance and the chances of running into a bus full of kids is greater in your car than it will be in a plane. Check the bylaws, get a copy of the club's policy. If you are on the hook for only for $1000, the cost of additional insurance is not worth insuring the risk.
 
Your club is responsible for their deductible, not the actual member flying, unless the bylaws state otherwise (which I doubt).

There's also the issue of subrogation. Carefully read the club policy!

I just looked, when I was a non-owner my policy was $375/yr. The outfit I rented from didn't require it as a student but did did after ppl.
Call a broker, tell them your situation, and go from there. Here's who I used this year and was very happy:
Leah Ringeisen
Account Executive
Gallagher Aviation
Direct: 877-520-6247

I have belonged to several flying clubs and every one of them required the member to pay the deductable. Some of them provided a charge up to the value of the members share value, which was more than the deductable. Another has $2000 + the deductable in the event gear up landing.
 
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Thanks for the discussion folks. I think I'll get a policy pre-solo.
 
Thanks for the discussion folks. I think I'll get a policy pre-solo.
You need to look a bit closer at the insurance policy your club has before doing so.

Believe me in saying that, having non-owners insurance is completely unnecessary while you're pre-solo. During this time, you're flying with a CFI who (if they work under the club) will be covered under their insurance policy. This means that if an accident/incident were to occur, you will not be liable to pay anything.

When you're flying solo as PIC, then and only then, is non-owners insurance necessary.

I went through this scenario when I first began taking flight lessons.
Take it for what it's worth, but that's my 2c.
 
I think you need to learn exactly what the Club's insurance policy covers and what it doesn't cover, and what the Club's rules are about the deductible. There can be major differences and there is no "one size fits all" answer.
 
I should have been more clear. I meant I'll get more coverage before I solo, but not for now. I will review the clubs policy but I do know that we have to pay the deductible. I don't plan on doing anything stupid, but I'm at that "don't know what you don't know" stage and would hate to put my assets at risk because of it. Thanks again all. Im just a nervous Nelly.
 
I should have been more clear. I meant I'll get more coverage before I solo, but not for now. I will review the clubs policy but I do know that we have to pay the deductible. I don't plan on doing anything stupid, but I'm at that "don't know what you don't know" stage and would hate to put my assets at risk because of it. Thanks again all. Im just a nervous Nelly.
Understandable.

Of course you must pay the deductible. We've addressed that in prior replies. It's no different than an auto policy deductible...ya gotta pay it. Good luck in your journey to become a pilot!
 
A couple of years ago we had a long thread here where a student pilot taxied into a taxiway light. It chronicled the long sad story that iirc ended with a out of court settlement between the aircraft owner and the student on the day of the trial. With insurance this would have been taken care of with a phonecall and a written statement.

The main thing you buy with a $250 renters policy is the prepaid assistance of a company and their lawyers to sort out whether you are legally responsible in the first place.
 
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