Non certified equipment in aircraft

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by uwm1kl, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. uwm1kl

    uwm1kl Filing Flight Plan

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    Hey All,

    I have a Beechcraft A23-19 that I bought 3yrs ago that has a CHT monitor MGL-TC1 installed in it. Works like a dream showing all 4 cylinder CHT's at the same time, I love having it in the aircraft, adds to the overall safety in my opinion. I have had three annuals without anything being said about it being in the aircraft. But, here are my concerns.......nothing has been listed in my aircraft log books about it being installed, it's not certified for GA aircraft, and I'm afraid of getting ramp checked and them grounding my aircraft. So, my question to the group is.... should I be concerned about this unit being in the aircraft or not?

    Thanks,
    John
     
  2. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    Yes if you meet the wrong FAA guy.
     
  3. Bell206

    Bell206 Line Up and Wait

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    A better person to ask will be the IA who signed the last annual. He's in the best position to verify or correct the situation for you.

    Not certified for GA in what way? A missing logbook entry is one thing, but installing it in your aircraft is possible through several methods.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  4. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Have you checked the records with the FAA? Have you discussed it with your IA?
     
  5. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    No ...
     
  6. uwm1kl

    uwm1kl Filing Flight Plan

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    Thanks....my annual is due at the end of this month and I will be talking with my IA. The MGL website states that this unit is not FAA approved only for experimental aircraft. How should I proceed to correctly notate it in the log books and have the FAA except everything being that it's already installed? To be honest I don't want to take it out because, it allows me to see all 4 CHT temps operating at the same time, unlike the approved EI and JPI units which use the scan method.
     
  7. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Don't mention it to your A&P-IA, If they aren't smart enough to catch it. Shut up. and fly on.

    For non required instruments, there isn't a certification required.
     
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  8. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Elaborate

    Example?
     
  9. uwm1kl

    uwm1kl Filing Flight Plan

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    No...haven't checked my records with the FAA, didn't want to draw any unwanted attention at this point. Have not talked with my IA either but, I will being that my annual is due at the end of this month. This only got my attention recently because, I flew to another airport and overheard another pilot talking to someone about being ramp checked and sited for having unapproved equipment in his aircraft. This made me think to take a hard look at my equipment and what do you know......found this error. I'm hoping my IA can correct this without having to pull everything out.
     
  10. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It would take a very anal mx inspector to even notice that I'd think.
     
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  11. uwm1kl

    uwm1kl Filing Flight Plan

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    I think he does know......but doesn't see it as a problem, danger, or airworthyness issue.
     
  12. tinerj

    tinerj Cleared for Takeoff

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    Kind of gray area. You can stick a clock/timer on the instrumnet panel with Velcro and it isn't "permanently" installed. If you don't use it for a required instrument (timing for IFR flights) then it is ok.

    Still another oddity. It is acceptable to bolt or screw onto the instrument panel (permanently mount) a holder that firmly holds an electronic device such as a GPS, provided the device can be removed from the holder.

    I think something that improves the safety of a flight but isn't required for the flight, then it's not likely to incur diffiiculities.

    But then, what do I know. I'm not an A/P and certainly not one with inspection authority.
     
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  13. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    Well you have your answer including some from people that admit they don't actually have any knowledge of the regulations.
     
  14. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    Now if it was ok to install that device in a certified aircraft do you think MGL would make a point of saying that it is for experimental aircraft only, not to be installed in certified aircraft? Unless someone got a field approval for it, it is a violation waiting to be noticed. If you're lucky it will be a IA, if unlucky it will be during a ramp check.
    By the way, I am a IA. If I saw it in there during annual that would be a show stopper. I'd wonder what other non approved stuff was installed and chase you out of my shop.
     
  15. Isosceles

    Isosceles Pre-Flight

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    Afaik, feds are not allowed inside your airplane during ramp checks unless you invite them. besides, you have to be a lucky person to be ever ramp-checked flying a small GA piston airplane.
     
  16. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    Airplanes have windows. I'm done. You guys can argue this without me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  17. hotprops

    hotprops Line Up and Wait

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    not this bs again ,were is tom
     
  18. hotprops

    hotprops Line Up and Wait

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    paulie . stick to other than part 91 operated aircraft. you will go broke and you will be correct more often. what about car 3 aircraft do you even know what that is? btw gm dealers are paying almost 30 percent more than any fbo in naples and you wont have to sign log books ,and you will sleep ant night. a win win for all of swfl eta tell me all about the thousands of non tso 170b nav coms
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  19. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Some one needs to review what a major modification is, and what a minor modification is, which this is, then tell us what the paper work it would require?

    The reference is:
    FAR 43-A
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  20. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    Was that English?
     
  21. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I didn't understand it either.

    But while you are here, tell me what your reference is to require paper on this, gauge?
     
  22. hotprops

    hotprops Line Up and Wait

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    paul .English, go work for a car dealer you will make more $ and sleep at night .good for you and me
     
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  23. air_n_water

    air_n_water Filing Flight Plan

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    Don’t carry your logbooks with you and unless the inspector is really up on all types of instrumentation, not likely it would be questioned and no wat to check on sight without logs.
     
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  24. Stewartb

    Stewartb En-Route

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    The OP should pick up a phone and call FSDO to chat about his question. Then he’d know the answer.
     
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  25. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    No

    For one, it's not uncommon to get ramped, or have a fed at least look at your plane on the ramp, especially if there is any activity that draws their attention to the field, also your proximity to a FSDO and the time of the fiscal year plays a little bit of a factor.

    example, there was some plane that had a engine failure a few years back at the airport I was working at, landed short, no one hurt just some bent metal, plane was put on a flatbed and brought back to the mx hangar, of course the clown squad of police and other types were all over it and the Feds probably got a few dozen phone calls, fast forward a week or so and a fed shows up to look at the plane, and while he was at it poked his nose around the airport, also ramping me and the work plane in the process, no biggie.

    Now if you want to try to play the "stay out of my plane" game if they ask to look inside, good luck and gods speed

    Remember sadly this isn't a matter or real law with real rights, this is "administrative law" which is more akin to a what most people would call a kangaroo court than to anything you'd expect see in a real court of law.

    For the most part some ASI from the FSDO doesn't really want to screw with you, but if you decide to play hard ball and you pizz them off enough that they put their sights on you, you are NOT going to have a good time.


    Good write up on ramp checks

    https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-archive/faa-enforcement/ramp-checks

    From the FAA

    http://fsims.faa.gov/WDocs/8900.1/V06 Surveillance/Chapter 01/06_001_004.htm
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  26. Bell206

    Bell206 Line Up and Wait

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    In general, for a company to market and sell items to the public for use on TC’d aircraft they need some sort of FAA approval like a TSOA, PMA, STC, etc. However, this requirement does not crossover to an aircraft owner.

    MGL is simply stating the TC-1 does not have any FAA approval, not that it is “approved” for E-AB only. Just look at an Aircraft Spruce or Univair catalog and look at their install notes. There is no approval system for experimental aircraft except when their AWC is issued.

    So to install a TC-1 on a TC’d aircraft falls to the installing A&P. If he determines it is a major alteration, FAA approved data, a 337, and a IA sign off will be required. If determined a minor alteration only acceptable data and A&P sign off required.

    FYI: this applies mostly to private Part 91 miscellaneous installs as some other types of installs like IFR certification or Part 135 ops sometime require FAA approved items.

    That question will be for your A&P/IA to answer.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  27. simtech

    simtech Pattern Altitude

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    I'm not lucky, I never win anything. But I won me a ramp check at a small town airport in Mississippi in a 172. No lie, I have to be the only person in history to get ramp checked there .
     
  28. N3368K

    N3368K Line Up and Wait

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    Sounds like the ASI must have been lost.
     
  29. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    That statement is nothing but a CYA thing for the seller.

    The determine factor if it is a major or minor is, "did they modify the aircraft from its design". IOWs did they cut a new hole to stick this in?
     
  30. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    Unless this aircraft was being used commercially (ie, 135), I wouldn't sweat it. I've been ramp checked (Part 91) several times and this minor modification wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.
     
  31. Stewartb

    Stewartb En-Route

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    I know nothing about Musketeers. Is there a standard CHT gauge in the plane? As in... required equipment? If so, replacement needs to be approved as a primary replacement. If not? Whether it's legal or not is up to the IA, and it's easy to find two that won't agree.
     
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  32. Dave Arata

    Dave Arata Pre-Flight

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    Just to be clear, we manufacture instruments that scan through EGT/CHT temperatures and others that display all cylinders simultaneously.
     
  33. NordicDave

    NordicDave Pre-takeoff checklist

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    They're fully certified and work great. I have a CGR-30P, getting a CGR-30C to replace all my factory gauges.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  34. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    MGL is protecting themselves. They neither write the rules nor enforce them. Just because they say you can't doesn't mean you can't.
     
  35. Bell206

    Bell206 Line Up and Wait

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    And most of those disclaimer statements similar to MGL's came out after implementation of Part 3 which added a regulatory violation to anyone misrepresenting parts for sale on TC'd aircraft.
     
  36. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    It's a minor alteration. How long are those maintenance log entries required to be kept?
     
  37. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

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    Slap a small in-op sticker across the top and then ignore it.
    If you get ramp checked, tell them it was like that when you bought it and you don't use it.
     
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  38. tinerj

    tinerj Cleared for Takeoff

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    Lying to the Feds is probaby worse than the infraction.
     
  39. uwm1kl

    uwm1kl Filing Flight Plan

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    Sorry....didn't mean to sound like EI sales inferior products, just speaking to the units in my price range.
     
  40. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Something tells me that would attract more attention to it.