No Room at the Inn for AA Pilots and Flight Attendants

Palmpilot

Palmpilot

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
23,096
Location
PUDBY
Display Name
Richard Palm
Home Airfield
Palo Alto (SFO area)
EdFred said:
This should never happen. The airlines should have those rooms booked in perpetuity.
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The one issue I saw that made headlines was a weather diversion into a small out station with limited resources. Its not like the airlines hold 100+ rooms in every town they fly to, just in case.
 
As always the reality is in the middle somewhere - a couple of years ago the company contracted the hotel/limo department out to a 3rd party that was (and still is) unprepared to handle the volume of changes during irregular operations, so this has been an ongoing struggle when a crew ends up somewhere unexpected at the last minute. On the flip side, there's a lot of union posturing going on here too. What's new is that covid has us flying to more leisure destinations (smaller markets) than before, and it's a lot harder to secure hotel rooms at the last minute at a small town where we don't normally have large blocks of rooms reserved.

I feel worse for the FAs - the pilots have a lot of tools at their disposal to escalate the process and get things done. When I have the FAs with me on an overnight I can get them taken care of as well, but these days we're usually split up and they're left to fend for themselves.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not an airline pilot, but I was under the impression that crew rest is a safety-of-flight issue.
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Legally we need 8 hours 'behind the door' of the hotel room. So during irregular ops what'll happen is we deal with the hotel/shuttle in whatever way necessary - including letting the company flail around if that's the mood we're in - and once we get our room keys we'll discuss how long dinner will take and when we'll be back in the room for our Part 117 sleep opportunity. From there we'll do the math to figure out when we plan to be back at the gate the next morning. I'll call our scheduling folks and tell them when we'll be there. They can set the departure time however they like based on what I tell them. So it shouldn't ever be an actual safety problem - the pilots will get their rest one way or the other.
 
midwestpa24 said:
The one issue I saw that made headlines was a weather diversion into a small out station with limited resources.
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Well, heck...Gander figured out how to do it.

Speaking of which, while I've never seen the musical "Come from Away", I've long thought the song "Me and the Sky" is one of the great aviation songs.

 
kayoh190 said:
Legally we need 8 hours 'behind the door' of the hotel room. So during irregular ops what'll happen is we deal with the hotel/shuttle in whatever way necessary - including letting the company flail around if that's the mood we're in - and once we get our room keys we'll discuss how long dinner will take and when we'll be back in the room for our Part 117 sleep opportunity. From there we'll do the math to figure out when we plan to be back at the gate the next morning. I'll call our scheduling folks and tell them when we'll be there. They can set the departure time however they like based on what I tell them. So it shouldn't ever be an actual safety problem - the pilots will get their rest one way or the other.
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Behind the door eh! Following through with @SoonerAviator 's post above, a little musical interlude

 
GaryM said:
Speaking of which, while I've never seen the musical "Come from Away", I've long thought the song "Me and the Sky" is one of the great aviation songs.
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You should see it - it's fantastic!
 
kayoh190 said:
Legally we need 8 hours 'behind the door' of the hotel room. So during irregular ops what'll happen is we deal with the hotel/shuttle in whatever way necessary - including letting the company flail around if that's the mood we're in - and once we get our room keys we'll discuss how long dinner will take and when we'll be back in the room for our Part 117 sleep opportunity. From there we'll do the math to figure out when we plan to be back at the gate the next morning. I'll call our scheduling folks and tell them when we'll be there. They can set the departure time however they like based on what I tell them. So it shouldn't ever be an actual safety problem - the pilots will get their rest one way or the other.
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Do you guys have requirements that the rest area must meet certain stipulations? Years ago I was going to stay at work and sleep on the couch because I was worried about the snow preventing me from coming in the next day. Chief pilot said nope, “rest” must be either go home, go to pilot apartment (not available) or get a hotel.
 
midwestpa24 said:
The one issue I saw that made headlines was a weather diversion into a small out station with limited resources. Its not like the airlines hold 100+ rooms in every town they fly to, just in case.
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But they should have at least SOME rooms that were reserved. Bunk up!
 
Velocity173 said:
Do you guys have requirements that the rest area must meet certain stipulations? Years ago I was going to stay at work and sleep on the couch because I was worried about the snow preventing me from coming in the next day. Chief pilot said nope, “rest” must be either go home, go to pilot apartment (not available) or get a hotel.
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Someone smarter than me can tell you more, but our 117 rules simply state "The 10 hour rest period must provide the flightcrew member with a minimum of 8 uninterrupted hours of sleep opportunity." So that's the legal side, but our union contract also specifically specifies "suitable single occupancy lodging in a quiet room in a suitable location" anytime there's a break of at least 5 hours between duty periods during a sequence. The specific hotels then get negotiated by the union's hotel committee.

Applicable to your story, the part that we all talk verrrry quietly about is what happens between sequences on 'our time'. We're required to sign in 'fit for duty', which is how the company can whistle and look the other way when some dude commutes in on the redeye for an 8am show one morning, or sleeps in a crew room recliner the night prior. We (the industry - this isn't specific to AA) don't talk about any of that because the situation benefits both the company and the commuting pilots.
 
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catmandu said:
I am shocked. SHOCKED. At the misogynistic tendencies on POA. Not all four stripers have a Y chromosome.

:rolleyes:
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Your statement only works if you assume that the flight attendant was a woman, make assumptions about sexual preferences of the people involved or assume that gender has anything to do with pilot crew having more pull than cabin crew…

the most ****ed off captain I have ever seen in action was a lady close to retirement dealing with a holes in screw scheduling being down right hateful to an all male cabin staff.
 
kayoh190 said:
Legally we need 8 hours 'behind the door' of the hotel room. So during irregular ops what'll happen is we deal with the hotel/shuttle in whatever way necessary - including letting the company flail around if that's the mood we're in - and once we get our room keys we'll discuss how long dinner will take and when we'll be back in the room for our Part 117 sleep opportunity. From there we'll do the math to figure out when we plan to be back at the gate the next morning. I'll call our scheduling folks and tell them when we'll be there. They can set the departure time however they like based on what I tell them. So it shouldn't ever be an actual safety problem - the pilots will get their rest one way or the other.
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You don't actually have to be "behind the door", that is merely a colloquialism. The regulation says "sleep opportunity". If you check into the hotel, and then choose to use your sleep opportunity to eat dinner, that's on you. On the other hand, you could eat dinner before you check in.
 
dmspilot said:
You don't actually have to be "behind the door", that is merely a colloquialism. The regulation says "sleep opportunity". If you check into the hotel, and then choose to use your sleep opportunity to eat dinner, that's on you. On the other hand, you could eat dinner before you check in.
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I don't expect me or my crew to go to bed without eating, so I don't necessarily start the timer once we check in.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Your statement only works if you assume that the flight attendant was a woman, make assumptions about sexual preferences of the people involved or assume that gender has anything to do with pilot crew having more pull than cabin crew…

the most ****ed off captain I have ever seen in action was a lady close to retirement dealing with a holes in screw scheduling being down right hateful to an all male cabin staff.
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Oh, I had a much more colorful response, but I thought better of it, given this brave new world. Just defending M'lady's stripes, well earned.

Especially given the post-sequence debriefs I have listened to, over a fine glass of wine. Or three. Also well earned.

:)
 
catmandu said:
Oh, I had a much more colorful response, but I thought better of it, given this brave new world. Just defending M'lady's stripes, well earned.

Especially given the post-sequence debriefs I have listened to, over a fine glass of wine wine. Or three. Also well earned.

:)
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I was just messing with you.

we all have biases regardless of what’s in the mirror or between our legs. No one has four stripes on a us flag carrier without earning it as far as I’m concerned.
 
RyanB said:
What’s misogynistic about that? I’m not seeing it. :dunno:
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Well, I guess the definition "strongly prejudiced against women" could be considered a stretch.

But there is implication in the quoted quotes. That men will take care of women. Wink wink. Nudge nudge. Say no more.
 
I’m just happy to escape the Holiday Inn’s and Ramada’s, although I hear our hotel contract language could use some work. I’m sure the hotels will be way ahead than what my regional was putting us in. The hotels themselves weren’t terrible. Just the location was. Nothing around except for a gas station and a Wendy’s for 18 hours doesn’t suffice.
 
jordane93 said:
I’m just happy to escape the Holiday Inn’s and Ramada’s, although I hear our hotel contract language could use some work. I’m sure the hotels will be way ahead than what my regional was putting us in. The hotels themselves weren’t terrible. Just the location was. Nothing around except for a gas station and a Wendy’s for 18 hours doesn’t suffice.
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Yeah, I think you'll be really happy. I'm pretty happy with ours - especially our long (>16 hours) hotels - and I'm sure Delta does a better job than we do.
 
kayoh190 said:
Yeah, I think you'll be really happy. I'm pretty happy with ours - especially our long (>16 hours) hotels - and I'm sure Delta does a better job than we do.
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Yea we have to be downtown if the layover is 12 hours or more which could really suck in like Chicago or LAX. It could take an hour to get to the hotel and then we have to leave an extra hour early for the show time the next day. In reality, I’m not exploring the city if I have 12 hours. I just want to get something quick to eat and go to bed and I’d prefer an airport hotel. There are some exceptions to the 12 hour rule though. Overall, I can’t wait to do some exploring since I’ll be downtown most of the time!
 
jordane93 said:
Yea we have to be downtown if the layover is 12 hours or more which could really suck in like Chicago or LAX. It could take an hour to get to the hotel and then we have to leave an extra hour early for the show time the next day. In reality, I’m not exploring the city if I have 12 hours. I just want to get something quick to eat and go to bed and I’d prefer an airport hotel. There are some exceptions to the 12 hour rule though.
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Yeah, 16 hours seems like a more reasonable cutoff. I wouldn't want to be downtown for 12 either.
 
catmandu said:
Well, I guess the definition "strongly prejudiced against women" could be considered a stretch.

But there is implication in the quoted quotes. That men will take care of women. Wink wink. Nudge nudge. Say no more.
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It’s very much a stretch. In no way does the above discourse discriminate against women. I think you’re reading into a very lighthearted joke a little too far. I’ll have you know that my cousin (female) was an airline captain (wore four stripes) for many years, and her accomplishments in aviation far exceed mine.
 
catmandu said:
But there is implication in the quoted quotes. That men will take care of women. Wink wink. Nudge nudge. Say no more.
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What's misogynistic is the assumption that women do not have sexual agency and are not supposed to have their own desires.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Your statement only works if you assume that the flight attendant was a woman, make assumptions about sexual preferences of the people involved or assume that gender has anything to do with pilot crew having more pull than cabin crew…

the most ****ed off captain I have ever seen in action was a lady close to retirement dealing with a holes in screw scheduling being down right hateful to an all male cabin staff.
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Are there any typos in there?
 
Velocity173 said:
Chief pilot said nope, “rest” must be either go home, go to pilot apartment (not available) or get a hotel.
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If you are completely off, not on a layover, there are no rest requirements other than you must be free from all duty or obligation for the required amount of time. How you spend that time is up to you. There is no requirement to actually rest.

kayoh190 said:
Yeah, 16 hours seems like a more reasonable cutoff. I wouldn't want to be downtown for 12 either.
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Our cutoff is 14 hours (block to block, so 13 hours from debrief to report). It can be a bit short sometimes, especially with delays, when you'd rather just go to the nearby airport hotel. Some cities have exceptions that increase the cutoff. IAD for downtown DC, EWR/LGA for Manhattan, etc. IAD actually has three tiers. Shortest goes to an airport hotel, mid goes to a nice hotel in a great area of Renton, long goes to DC.

The big provisions are our codified rights to walk and expense.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I don’t think so but I never claimed to be a spelling champion…
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Ok. I thought it was. But then I thought, ya know, he probably really meant it.

"...
Your statement only works if you assume that the flight attendant was a woman, make assumptions about sexual preferences of the people involved or assume that gender has anything to do with pilot crew having more pull than cabin crew…

the most ****ed off captain I have ever seen in action was a lady close to retirement dealing with a holes in screw scheduling being down right hateful to an all male cabin staff."
 
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